How is this definition of "belief"?

@igm,

What about them?

I am just saying that I think the 'no-belief' thing is a reaction to exaggerated beliefs, which become delusions. But you can't be human and not form beliefs, even if you call them guesses or predictions or what you like. The best you can ever do is to go by the rule that fact beats belief when fact is available. But sometimes there are no facts. You don't know that you will survive this year. But you probably live and plan as if you will. That is faith, even if we don't like to admit it.
I am not saying that we all are delusional whether we know it or not. I just think it is possible to have faith without having rigid, deeply rooted beliefs that obscure and twist everything.

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@Cyracuz,

Cyracuz wrote:

Yes. I just meant that your propositions does not include beliefs that are not about phenomena or states.
By "a person's need to feel connected" I meant relating to things that are inevitable in life, such as both mental and physical pain, the great questions of meaning and purpose, and so on. Not all answers can be found in science. Some do not exist, which probably means the question sucks...

I see. I was trying to think of the most concise way to be as comprehensive as possible. Phenomena and states were the best I could come up with, but I admit that I didn't put a lot of time into it. What else belongs there?

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@FBM,

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What else belongs there?

If the definition is to be sound, it has to capture all the various forms a belief can take, from trivial guess to extreme delusion, doesn't it?

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@Frank Apisa,

Frank, can't a "guess"--I prefer "opinion"--be neither wholly correct nor wholly incorrect? Can't the "truth" be a combination of both opinions (plus more)? Your dualism is too black and white.

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@cicerone imposter,

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I think the basic problem with this premise is that people who can't provide irrefutable evidence to the contrary still "believe it to be true." In some cases, even when evidence to the contrary is provided, they still believe it to be true.

As a good Popperian, I think no scientific theory can be proven true with absolute certainty. Because induction has no real logical value, it doesn't matter how many times the theory predicts facts correctly; it could still theoretically fail to do so tomorrow. This is as far as I am ready to go towards the no-belief creed: nothing is ever certain at 100%. At least in science.

This does not mean nothing can be known. It means we have to adjust our expectations of knowledge: it's not a black and white picture, it's all shades of gray, with very "clear" grays and very "dark" ones for what we know almost for sure is true or false, and lot's of different shades in between. And it's all subjective and relative.

In this process of adjusting our sense of "truth", knowledge becomes a more subtle quest than the traditional pursuit for a "final word" (as elusive in life as on A2K). A quest in which "knowledge of knowledge", meta-knowledge if you wish but more well known as methodology or epistemology, is key if one wants to understand what's happening.

It's still a house of cards which could crumble tomorrow, but it can be built, and unbuilt, and rebuilt a bit better... Knowledge is easy and comes to us naturally. That's what we humans do best, in fact. But absolute knowledge is impossible. Maybe hence the belief in God?

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That's the reason why I say that religion and politics are difficult subjects to agree upon even when "proof" is provided.

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@Olivier5,

Forgot that:

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That's the reason why I say that religion and politics are difficult subjects to agree upon even when "proof" is provided.

it's also that you can't experiment scientifically with gods and politics. E.g. you can't give one virtual USA's presidential election to Al Gore and another virtual USA's presidential election to W in a controled environment and compare the results.

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@Cyracuz,

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This made me laugh. I think the 'no-belief' stance is a reaction to the way some people just uncritically believes whatever they want.

Maybe. And there goes the pendulum...

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@Olivier5,

However, where human belief is concerned, it's the most reliable source of subjective truth.

I have a high level of confidence in scientific theories.

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@Cyracuz,

Cyracuz wrote:

Quote:
What else belongs there?

If the definition is to be sound, it has to capture all the various forms a belief can take, from trivial guess to extreme delusion, doesn't it?

Listing every possible manifestation or variety would make a definition stronger, yes, but also very cumbersome. I was thinking of broader categories of things that beliefs may be about, rather than strength of the conviction. I'm not sure that the definition I proposed excludes any trivial or extreme beliefs. I may be wrong, though.

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@FBM,

Not cumbersome; impossible. Mr. Green

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@cicerone imposter,

Most likely. I sure wouldn't want to try.

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@JLNobody,

JLNobody wrote:

Frank, can't a "guess"--I prefer "opinion"--be neither wholly correct nor wholly incorrect? Can't the "truth" be a combination of both opinions (plus more)? Your dualism is too black and white.

Yes...a guess may be partially correct and partially incorrect.

That does not mean that EVERY guess can be partially correct and partially incorrect. Mutually exclusive matters seem not to be part of that group.

There is a dollar bill in that sealed envelope...or there is no dollar bill in that sealed envelope does not seem to be ameanable to partially.

Do you see it otherwise?

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@FBM,

Quote:

Listing every possible manifestation or variety would make a definition stronger, yes, but also very cumbersome.

I don't think a definition has to list every variety. It just has to hold true for every variety.
Your proposal explicitly mentioned phenomena and states. That excludes any belief that defies description in terms of phenomena and states.

If we can think of any belief that can not reasonably be described as 'a conceptual frame in which we organize our perceptions', my definition will not really be a definition, I think.

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@cicerone imposter,

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I have a high level of confidence in scientific theories.

Me too. That belief in science produced the toys and infrastructure allowing us to communicate today.

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@Olivier5,

Precisely! I just wonder about those people who doesn't have any belief. Mr. Green

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@cicerone imposter,

How can they use the internet, or a phone? And yet they can. Is that "suspension of disbelief" or what?

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@Cyracuz,

Cyracuz wrote:

Quote:
Listing every possible manifestation or variety would make a definition stronger, yes, but also very cumbersome.

I don't think a definition has to list every variety. It just has to hold true for every variety.
Your proposal explicitly mentioned phenomena and states. That excludes any belief that defies description in terms of phenomena and states.

Yes, obviously. What I'm asking is if there actually is any type of belief that isn't covered, implicitly or explicitly, by the terms "phenomena" and "states."

[/quote]

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@igm,

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Yes, but if undecidable then as I said above one has to live with a worldview based on uncertainty that may be a delusion but is definitely uncertain.

Who doesn't live in a worldview based on uncertainty, yet?

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@Olivier5,

Yes, uncertainty, impermanence, probabilities, relativities, ambiguities, and ambivalences define my world(view) to a larger extent than do their complements: certainty, permanence, possibilities, absolutes, unambiguities, and clear choices.

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@JLNobody,

I do think, though, that we have choices of what we plan to do. I'm not sure about 100% certainty, but most of the plans I make to travel usually come about.

That provides me with some confidence that my trips this year to Nova Scotia in September and the trans-Atlantic cruise in November will actually happen.

I planned and did eight trips last year. Mr. Green

1 Reply

How is this definition of "belief"?

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