5
   

How is this definition of "belief"?

 
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 Jun, 2013 11:24 am
@Frank Apisa,
You wrote,
Quote:
We humans eventually have to grow out of this kind of thinking!


Why? Because you say so? LOL
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 Jun, 2013 11:26 am
@cicerone imposter,
I wonder just how some of the colour blind people would react if the doctor said to them nah your fine you just having a subjective experience there is nothing wrong there...Wink
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 Jun, 2013 11:28 am
@JLNobody,
JLN, Did you twist your brain to arrive at that opinion? LOL
0 Replies
 
Fil Albuquerque
 
  2  
Reply Wed 19 Jun, 2013 12:06 pm
@JLNobody,
JLNobody wrote:

And is it not the basis for advertising, a major basis for the success of market capitalism--that is to say, create subjective desire in order to manipulate objective behavior in order to gain objective profits and subjective gratifications... Rolling Eyes


...hey don't stop there J, let me twist it further for the sake of much needed comic relief in this thread...aren't subjective gratifications suppose to produce objective results ? it is the case to claim there are objective subjectivities going on...Wink
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 Jun, 2013 12:43 pm
@Fil Albuquerque,
I believe you have finally resolved the subjective-objective dilemma. Mr. Green Drunk Drunk Drunk Drunk
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 Jun, 2013 01:48 pm
@cicerone imposter,
cicerone imposter wrote:

You wrote,
Quote:
We humans eventually have to grow out of this kind of thinking!


Why? Because you say so? LOL


If you think it foolish...as many geocentric individuals undoubtedly did when geocentricity was questioned...stick with "human minds are the cause."

It is laughable on its merits, ci. You know better than this.

But...if you want to think everything is dependent upon human minds...think it. You do not hurt anyone with that belief system.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 Jun, 2013 02:10 pm
@Frank Apisa,
I never said at any time that "everything is dependent on human minds."
NEVER!

Cut and paste from any of my posts to prove that I did?
Cyracuz
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 Jun, 2013 02:17 pm
@JLNobody,
I have not thought of it in terms of subjective and objective. But examining which aspects of our social behavior stem from our subjective individuality, and which stem from our social affiliations might be an interesting endeavor.
It might be that the truly individual parts of our identities are rather trivial compared to the mechanisms that govern our social selves. But that is speculation on my part.
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 Jun, 2013 02:29 pm
@cicerone imposter,
cicerone imposter wrote:

I never said at any time that "everything is dependent on human minds."
NEVER!

Cut and paste from any of my posts to prove that I did?


Okay...let's say that I am wrong here (it has happened!)...and that you are not saying "everything is dependent on human minds. I am going to present what I see to be the case in our discussions...and why I have arrived at that conclusion. Please inform me where I am mistaken...and what your actual position is.

Here is what I see as the discussion between us on this issue:


You have asserted that each individual has his/her own reality.

When I suggested that MAY NOT BE THE CASE...and that they merely have their own "perception" of REALITY...and that whatever actually IS...IS despite their perceptions (making REALITY objective)...

...you have, as I read it, objected. As I read it, you have asserted that reality is subjective.

Since REALITY is the entirety of what IS...that means you are asserting that everything is dependent upon the human mind.


Have I misinterpreted your position, ci? Or are the conclusions I see as required...defective in some way? Am I misreading you in suggesting that you consider REALITY to be subjective?

If so, I will apologize. So please explain where I am wrong about what you assert.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  2  
Reply Wed 19 Jun, 2013 02:52 pm
I don't know that you can separate subjective self-images from social associations. That, in fact, was what feudalism was all about. Technically, all the land belonged to the King, or the Archduke or the Emperor. He gave rights in property to his vassals, who became his feudatories, promising supplies (literally) and military service for those rights in property. In turn, they gave rights in property to lesser members of the nobility or knights, who in turn provided supplies and military service.

The system never worked exactly as planned and that's an oversimplification of how it worked, but it is a direct and complete statement of how those participating in it saw it. In England in the 15th century, during the civil wars which are now called the Wars of the Roses, these associations were known as "affinities." Perhaps the most powerful man in England for a time was Richard Neville, the Earl of Warwick, known as the Kingmaker, the leader of the faction of the House of York, and nephew of the Duke of York. If you were a member of his affinity, you wore red and white, his colors, and his badge of the bear and the ragged staff.

http://www.luminarium.org/encyclopedia/richard-neville-badge.gif

This proclaimed to all who could see what faction you adhered to. You at least nominally pledged your life and your treasure to him, and would be expected to support him politically and to give military service on demand. People did just exactly that, and Warwick was expected to repay that loyalty, which is exactly what he did. He proclaimed his power and prestige by his generosity, by the largesse which he distributed to his affinity. On one occasion, he feasted 3000 people at Middleham Castle.

But the Wars of the Roses were hard on the nobility. In the last Parliament before they began, 52 lords secular attended the House of Lords. After Henry Tudor, Henry VII, defeated Richard III (Warwick had been dead about 15 years by then), only 16 lords secular answered the writs for the new Parliament. Henry was able to ram a bill through the weakened Parliament outlawing affinities and liveried companies (bands of armed men who wore the colors and badges of their lord).

That, however, didn't change that human tendency to associate willfully and subjectively. People became members of guilds, they remained Catholics or became Lutherans or Anabaptists. If you prepared wool cloth for the garment industry, you took the name Fuller. If you had made the pilgrimage to Jerusalem, you took the name Palmer. People eagerly sought to advertise their associations.

Today someone might proclaim that they are a White Sox fan, or a supporter of Real Madrid. One might call himself a Social Democrat or a Tory. But that human will to associate and to proclaim one's association remains. Twenty thousand years ago, you might have only been a member of the clan of the Bison. Things are much more complicated today, but they have not changed essentially.
Cyracuz
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 Jun, 2013 02:55 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Actually, the notion that reality begins with experience (mind) is no more and no less ridiculous than the notion that reality begins with a foundation for experience (material reality).

Stating that "reality is" asserts that I am having the experience of reality.

Saying that reality is a premise for having that experience is unwarranted and illogical. I can say "I experience it, so there is reality". But if I say "I experience reality, so there was reality before experiencing creatures like me entered it", I am making an assumption.

Our experience is our guiding star. That is where it all begins. That is what has led us to the assumption that there might be a material world that is the foundation of our human experience. Isn't that a neat irony?



cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 Jun, 2013 02:57 pm
@Cyracuz,
You wrote,
Quote:
But examining which aspects of our social behavior stem from our subjective individuality, and which stem from our social affiliations might be an interesting endeavor.


That's the very reason why I opined that individuals are the product of their genes and environment. Within those "constraints" are the individual's subjective choices in what is available.
Cyracuz
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 Jun, 2013 03:00 pm
@Setanta,
Interesting. Thanks for sharing.
0 Replies
 
Cyracuz
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 Jun, 2013 03:09 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Yes. But it seems to vary how much they impact each individual. But there is little question that, for instance, the public opinion to a large extent defines the terms in which we think, which in turn affects how we are inclined to think.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 Jun, 2013 03:16 pm
@Cyracuz,
The form of government impacts the people most. We can still observe the huge differences between capitalistic, communist and religion based countries - although they are narrowing in scope. We see more capitalism practiced in communist countries as they participate in the global marketplace.

I believe lines will be difficult to draw and distinguish in the next generation.

0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 Jun, 2013 03:22 pm
@Cyracuz,
Cyracuz wrote:

Actually, the notion that reality begins with experience (mind) is no more and no less ridiculous than the notion that reality begins with a foundation for experience (material reality).


Is that because you say that is so...or because of some inherent truth that you are about to reveal?

Quote:
Stating that "reality is" asserts that I am having the experience of reality.


Actually, I have on a couple of occasions here qualified what I was saying by including words to the effect, "IF REALITY EXISTS..."

I certainly seem to "exist" on some level. Whether or not anything else does...or if everything else is a function of that "level" at which I exist...is still up for grabs.

But I see no reason not to assume for the sake of the discussion occurring...that there is a general EXISTENCE...and the REALITY of that existence IS...whatever it IS.

Quote:
Saying that reality is a premise for having that experience is unwarranted and illogical. I can say "I experience it, so there is reality". But if I say "I experience reality, so there was reality before experiencing creatures like me entered it", I am making an assumption.


I do not know what you are getting at here.

IF THERE IS EXISTENCE...can the REALITY of that existence be anything other than what it actually IS?



Quote:
Our experience is our guiding star. That is where it all begins. That is what has led us to the assumption that there might be a material world that is the foundation of our human experience. Isn't that a neat irony?


As respectfully as I can possibly put this, Cyracuz, what I am hearing is a variation on "The world obviously is flat...and we are at the center of everything."

In the grand scheme of things, Cyracuz...humans and all human perceptions may not be appreciably different from an ant's considerations of the cosmos.
Cyracuz
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 Jun, 2013 03:36 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Quote:
In the grand scheme of things, Cyracuz...humans and all human perceptions may not be appreciably different from an ant's considerations of the cosmos.


This is true. Unfortunately, human perceptions is all we have.
I don't know from where you have it that we have something more.

Quote:
what I am hearing is a variation on "The world obviously is flat...and we are at the center of everything."


That is entirely understandable, since that is all you are ranting about, and it is pretty clear that you are only hearing yourself...

Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 Jun, 2013 03:43 pm
@Cyracuz,
Cyracuz wrote:

Quote:
In the grand scheme of things, Cyracuz...humans and all human perceptions may not be appreciably different from an ant's considerations of the cosmos.


This is true. Unfortunately, human perceptions is all we have.
I don't know from where you have it that we have something more.


What does that last sentence mean?

As for the sentence beore it...well, at one time, all we had was a flat Earth.


Quote:

Quote:
what I am hearing is a variation on "The world obviously is flat...and we are at the center of everything."


That is entirely understandable, since that is all you are ranting about, and it is pretty clear that you are only hearing yourself...
[/quote]

Nope, I'm hearing you also, Cyracuz...and it sounds as though you are making humans into something they may not be.

I don't know. We may be the only planet in the entire universe with life of any kind on it; we may be the only planet in the univese with life as "advanced" as Homo Sapiens is; "human" perceptions may be the single most important ingredient in REALITY.

And maybe not.

You seem to be asserting that it has to be.

I disagree.
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 Jun, 2013 03:53 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Drop it...its pointless Frank...
0 Replies
 
Cyracuz
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 Jun, 2013 04:24 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Quote:
and it sounds as though you are making humans into something they may not be.


I assure you, that is not my intention.
I am saying that "reality is" is a subjective experience.
It's objectivity comes from the agreement of all subjects who care to weigh in. Since even the relatively few subjects weighing in here can't seem to agree, stating that "reality is objective" is a rather bold claim.

It seems to me you think in terms of an objective reality which every subject is more or less in tune with.
There may be such a reality.
But we cannot know this. What we call "objective" is the socially mediated result of all our subjective experiences.

I am not trying to glorify human beings. On the contrary. I am trying to emphasize certain limitations that you seem unwilling to acknowledge. One of them being that if we can only have a subjective experience of reality, this condition makes knowing that there is a reality outside of subjective perception impossible.

You are having a subjective experience, Frank. How can you prove that "reality you can't experience" is anything but a thought in your head?
 

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