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How is this definition of "belief"?

Forums: Belief, Philosophy
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Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 Jun, 2013 05:14 pm
@Cyracuz,
Cyracuz wrote:

Quote:
and it sounds as though you are making humans into something they may not be.


I assure you, that is not my intention.
I am saying that "reality is" is a subjective experience.


Well...that is incorrect, but I understand you are saying it.


Quote:
It's objectivity comes from the agreement of all subjects who care to weigh in. Since even the relatively few subjects weighing in here can't seem to agree, stating that "reality is objective" is a rather bold claim.


And you are absolutely positive that "REALITY is objective" simply because what REALITY actually IS...is what it IS?

That just doesn't work.

Quote:
It seems to me you think in terms of an objective reality which every subject is more or less in tune with.


I consider the REALITY to be whatever IS...whether everyone is in tune with it or not.


Quote:
There may be such a reality.
But we cannot know this.


WE MOST ASSUREDLY CAN KNOW THAT SUCH A REALITY MAY EXIST!

That is all we have to know. What we call "objective" is the socially mediated result of all our subjective experiences.

Quote:
I am not trying to glorify human beings.


Since you seem to be suggesting that REALITY is dependent in some way on them...I respectfully suggest that you are.


Quote:
On the contrary. I am trying to emphasize certain limitations that you seem unwilling to acknowledge.


You are just pulling my leg here, right?

Quote:
One of them being that if we can only have a subjective experience of reality, this condition makes knowing that there is a reality outside of subjective perception impossible.


Give it a break, Cyracuz. The REALITY IS whatever it IS. We do not have to know what it is...by definition it IS what it IS. That is a tautology.

Your subjective perspectives of REALITY are just that...subjective perspectives of it.

Quote:

You are having a subjective experience, Frank. How can you prove that "reality you can't experience" is anything but a thought in your head?



I do not know what the REALITY is, Cyracuz. I'm pretty sure I've mentioned that before...probably a dozen or more times. I cannot "prove" what I do not know.

But I do not have to "prove" a tautology. What the REALITY actually IS...it IS.

That is objective.

Thank you for asking. Again.
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 Jun, 2013 05:15 pm
@Cyracuz,
Cyracuz wrote:
You are having a subjective experience, Frank.


When you are involved, Cyracuz...the experience is almost always deja vu.
Cyracuz
 
  2  
Reply Wed 19 Jun, 2013 05:25 pm
@Frank Apisa,
... said the broken record... Laughing

How about answering the question that followed it?

This;
Quote:
I do not know what the REALITY is, Cyracuz. I'm pretty sure I've mentioned that before...probably a dozen or more times. I cannot "prove" what I do not know.

But I do not have to "prove" a tautology. What the REALITY actually IS...it IS.

That is objective.


... is not an answer. It is more of the same bs that has failed to communicate your fallacious argument from the start. But you are still flogging the poor beast.

One moment you say you don't know what reality is.
The next you say that reality is objective...

Following that, why should I take anything you say seriously? You are clearly incapable of the mental precision required to grasp this...
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 Jun, 2013 05:43 pm
@Cyracuz,
Cyracuz wrote:

... said the broken record... Laughing

How about answering the question that followed it?

This;
Quote:
I do not know what the REALITY is, Cyracuz. I'm pretty sure I've mentioned that before...probably a dozen or more times. I cannot "prove" what I do not know.

But I do not have to "prove" a tautology. What the REALITY actually IS...it IS.

That is objective.


... is not an answer. It is more of the same bs that has failed to communicate your fallacious argument from the start. But you are still flogging the poor beast.

One moment you say you don't know what reality is.
The next you say that reality is objective...

Following that, why should I take anything you say seriously? You are clearly incapable of the mental precision required to grasp this...


One does not have to know what the REALITY is...to know that it is objective, Cyracuz. I have explained that several times.

REALITY...IS what IS. Whatever it is (and I do not know what it is)...it IS...and therefore is objective.

And I can make my case without all the unpleasantness that you are bringing into the discussion...which counts for something.
cicerone imposter
 
  2  
Reply Wed 19 Jun, 2013 06:12 pm
@Cyracuz,
You wrote, and I also see a contradiction in,
Quote:
One moment you say you don't know what reality is.
The next you say that reality is objective...


He wants it both ways. So, what else is new? LOL
JLNobody
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 Jun, 2013 08:58 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Good point, but can't he claim that Reality is an objective mystery?
JLNobody
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 Jun, 2013 09:01 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Good point, but can't he claim that Reality is an objective mystery?
After all, with his absolute agnosticism, i.e., that he knows nothing for sure, he at least frees himself from "confusion" as a subjective problem regarding Reality.
Is that right, Frank?
cicerone imposter
 
  3  
Reply Wed 19 Jun, 2013 09:24 pm
@JLNobody,
I had to laugh when you wrote,
Quote:
that he knows nothing for sure
.

Frank argues HPOV veciferously - as if he knows for sure! LOL
This is the same guy who doesn't have beliefs.
Cyracuz
 
  1  
Reply Thu 20 Jun, 2013 01:47 am
@Frank Apisa,
Quote:
One does not have to know what the REALITY is...to know that it is objective, Cyracuz. I have explained that several times.


No, Frank. Not EXPLAINED. You have SAID it many times. But apparently not enough times that you can see how foolish that statement is.

And regarding the unpleasantness... It is always unpleasant to get called on your bullshit, Frank. I can only imagine what it must be like to think yourself free of beliefs, only to discover that they are alive and well and making you say retarded things on an internet forum.
FBM
 
  1  
Reply Thu 20 Jun, 2013 03:27 am
I'm not taking sides in this, and I hope to say this without stepping on any toes, but if all experience is subjective, doesn't it require something of a leap, however small, to say anything at all about the qualities of whatever - if anything - is unavailable to said experience?
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Thu 20 Jun, 2013 03:35 am
@FBM,
Heretic ! ! !
FBM
 
  1  
Reply Thu 20 Jun, 2013 03:58 am
@Setanta,
Laughing Remember, I'm not taking sides; just asking a question.
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Thu 20 Jun, 2013 04:18 am
@FBM,
That won't save you. In another Cyracuz thread, i questioned Fresco's premises. He went ballistic. He started calling me a belligerent fool (oh, the irony). Another member who has been here just over a month showed up to declare that the consensus among members is that i'm hostile and aggressive. Fresco continued the name-calling. People around here really don't like to have their premises questioned.

I considered that other thread to be silly, precisely because it started from vague and undefined premises. This thread, however, is laudable, despite so much of the content being silly, because the very purpose is to establish a premise, to establish a definition from which discussion can proceed. Among the members here, my expereince is that Cyracuz is among those least likely to get upset if you challenge or question his premises. This is a good thread, despite the silliness and occasional hostility.
FBM
 
  1  
Reply Thu 20 Jun, 2013 04:21 am
@Setanta,
I also like the approach of collaborating to establish a premise, rather than stating one unilaterally and then taking on all comers as if it were Iwo Jima. Maybe that's why I prefer just asking questions. Wink
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Thu 20 Jun, 2013 04:26 am
Well, be forewarned that asking questions is not always appreciated around here. A lot of people really go over the top when you question their premises.
FBM
 
  1  
Reply Thu 20 Jun, 2013 04:28 am
@Setanta,
I noticed. Laughing Some people don't take much care in distinguishing between a question and a claim...
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Thu 20 Jun, 2013 04:35 am
What's that supposed to mean ? ! ? ! ?

(Sorry, i couldn't resist.)
FBM
 
  1  
Reply Thu 20 Jun, 2013 05:00 am
@Setanta,
Heh heh heh... Wink
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Thu 20 Jun, 2013 05:35 am
@cicerone imposter,
cicerone imposter wrote:

You wrote, and I also see a contradiction in,
Quote:
One moment you say you don't know what reality is.
The next you say that reality is objective...


He wants it both ways. So, what else is new? LOL


There is no contradiction there...as I have explained many times.

I do not know what the REALITY is...but whatever it is...it is.

Therefore, it is objective no matter what it is.
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Thu 20 Jun, 2013 05:36 am
@JLNobody,
JLNobody wrote:

Good point, but can't he claim that Reality is an objective mystery?


Same thing, JL.
0 Replies
 
 

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