How is this definition of "belief"?

@cicerone imposter,

errr...well do you disagree reality is what it is ? more, do you know anyone who disagrees ??? please note that I am referring to this particular sentence.

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All might note that the Wiki article on "reality" is a lengthy one dealing with all the different "takes" on that word, ranging from "reality being objective" to "reality having no independent existence". You will all find your particular "take" somewhere in there, together with a dozen others nobody has mentioned yet.

And as far as the verb to be is concerned as in phrase like "X is the case", whole volumes have been written on its usage.

Dance on !

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@cicerone imposter,

What both Frank and Fil seem unable to grasp is that "objective" is a classification made by subjects.
The term relates to that which is perceived. That fabled "reality beyond perception" is a belief, and it is as unsubstantiated as beliefs in gods.

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@Fil Albuquerque,

As I have said many times before, there is a big difference between saying

"Reality IS, and that is an objective statement about reality"...

..and saying...

"reality is objective".

Those two assertions mean different things.
The first I can agree on.
The second is simply beyond our capacity to know.

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@cicerone imposter,

cicerone imposter wrote:

Quote,
Quote:
no one would disagree reality is what is,

No one has argued against this opinion.

It is not an opinion...it is a statement of fact.

And if no one is arguing against it...why are we having this discussion. If it is so...then REALITY is objective.

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@Fil Albuquerque,

Fil Albuquerque wrote:

The point Frank is making is that if no one disagrees with that statement then that statement pretty much is objective...

I wrote my last response before reading this. Of course that is the case.

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@cicerone imposter,

cicerone imposter wrote:

That's where we part ways.

Reality is what it is based on whether it is objective or subjective. It's not only "objective." People determine their own reality from subjective choices constrained by their genes and environment.

Could you reword this, because it is not clear as to what you are saying.

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@Cyracuz,

Cyracuz wrote:

What both Frank and Fil seem unable to grasp is that "objective" is a classification made by subjects.
The term relates to that which is perceived. That fabled "reality beyond perception" is a belief, and it is as unsubstantiated as beliefs in gods.

No, Cyracuz...that POSSIBLE REALITY beyond perception IS NOT a belief.

The notion that the POSSIBLE REALITY BEYOND PERCEPTION is a belief.

You are claiming you KNOW what the REALITY is.

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@Cyracuz,

Cyracuz wrote:

As I have said many times before, there is a big difference between saying

"Reality IS, and that is an objective statement about reality"...

..and saying...

"reality is objective".

Those two assertions mean different things.
The first I can agree on.
The second is simply beyond our capacity to know.

Nonsene.

You are saying the POSSIBILITY that REALITY cannot be beyond that which can be perceived...that it is a myth.

YOU ARE THE ONE pretending you know what REALITY is.

I do not know.

All I know is that whatever it actually IS...that is what it IS.

That makes it objective.

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@Frank Apisa,

The matter is so simple that you can even give practical examples on just how independent reality is from subjects...time and space cannot be created by a mind because a mind to operate, to be a mind and minding about stuff, requires time and space in the first place. So there we have 2 crystal clear examples that are basic conditions of reality and that do not need any observation to exist, rather they are the a priori conditions for any observing come into play...

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@Frank Apisa,

Frank says: "All I know is that whatever [Reality] actually IS...that is what it IS. That makes it objective."

Can we also say that to the extent that Frank is literally stuck in his conceptions of "Reality" and "objectivity" that his perspective is excessively subjective?
I see "truth" in much of what he says and in what the "subjectivists/idealists" assert. This is, I suspect, because both see half of the "truth" but neither sees all of it. Viva la non-dualism!

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@Fil Albuquerque,

Perhaps "space" and "time" not only denote the objective "material" independently existing determinants of mental observation, perhaps they can also be considered its epistemological Kantian a priori subjective co-originating "foundations."

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@JLNobody,

JLNobody wrote:

Frank says: "All I know is that whatever [Reality] actually IS...that is what it IS. That makes it objective."

Can we also say that to the extent that Frank is literally stuck in his conceptions of "Reality" and "objectivity" that his perspective is excessively subjective?
I see "truth" in much of what he says and in what the "subjectivists/idealists" assert. This is, I suspect, because both see half of the "truth" but neither sees all of it. Viva la non-dualism!

I KNOW that whatever actually IS...actually IS.

But apparently the concept is so against your belief system that it will never penetrate.

So be it.

REALITY...(whatever IS)...IS...and that is objective.

1 Reply

@Fil Albuquerque,

But minds do exist. That's the reason humans perceive their environment subjectively. That's the reason why we are the product of our genes and our environment, and that includes culture, religion, politics, education, family and friends, good and bad, and all the values humans applies to their lives.

We direct our lives differently - because we are subjective living animals.

An individual living in dark Africa sees his world much differently than an individual who lives in New York City. Their choices are different by many degrees, but they are still subjective as to how they live those lives - up to the limits as I've described above - on my list that begins with "culture."

The environment does change, and we who live on this planet are impacted by them. The choices we make to where we decide to live is a subjective choice.

Humans have the ability to migrate to most parts of this planet. That's subjective.

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@Frank Apisa,

Quote:

You are saying the POSSIBILITY that REALITY cannot be beyond that which can be perceived...that it is a myth.

I have said nothing of possibility. Anything is possible, I guess.
But if by that quote you mean "absolute reality", then yes, it is... not a myth.
An assumption.
No one has ever seen it.
It is beyond human possibility to empirically verify any claim of objectivity regarding reality itself. Therefore, assigning the quality "objective" to reality is meaningless and unwarranted.

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@Frank Apisa,

Frank, when we assert that whatever actually is...actually is, or whatever tastes salty actually tastes salty, or whatever is expensive is actually expensive or whatever I see as beautiful appears to me beautiful...etc. etc....
are we reporting objective or subjective information--or both?

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@JLNobody,

I agree. Excessively subjective. It doesn't allow for the notion that reality might be perceptual relationships, instead of an object. It is pretty basic materialism, as I see it, part of the most modern of religions; capitalism.

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@Cyracuz,

And is it not the basis for advertising, a major basis for the success of market capitalism--that is to say, create subjective desire in order to manipulate objective behavior in order to gain objective profits and subjective gratifications... Rolling Eyes

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@JLNobody,

Also, some people are colorblind, and what most of us see as green can also be seen as blue. That's totally subjective to the individual. That's the reason why I say it's about genes and environment. Mental capacities can register differently depending on one's biology/brains.

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@cicerone imposter,

cicerone imposter wrote:

But minds do exist. That's the reason humans perceive their environment subjectively. That's the reason why we are the product of our genes and our environment, and that includes culture, religion, politics, education, family and friends, good and bad, and all the values humans applies to their lives.

We direct our lives differently - because we are subjective living animals.

An individual living in dark Africa sees his world much differently than an individual who lives in New York City. Their choices are different by many degrees, but they are still subjective as to how they live those lives - up to the limits as I've described above - on my list that begins with "culture."

The environment does change, and we who live on this planet are impacted by them. The choices we make to where we decide to live is a subjective choice.

Humans have the ability to migrate to most parts of this planet. That's subjective.

Right...humans have minds, therefore they are the reason for existence...and nothing would exist without them and their minds.

Jesus H. Christ, ci...do you not see the comparisons to "the Earth is flat and since everything else rotates around it....obviously it is the center of the universe?"

We humans eventually have to grow out of this kind of thinking!

1 Reply

How is this definition of "belief"?

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