How is this definition of "belief"?

@Fil Albuquerque,

I'm already aware that guesses need not be factual, but what the individual presupposes about anything has be be their reality - whether right or wrong.

1 Reply

@Frank Apisa,

I've not questioned that guesses can be right or wrong, only that it's the individual's reality. We are talking about the "definition of belief" on this thread. What I believe "is" my reality - right or wrong.

1 Reply

@cicerone imposter,

cicerone imposter wrote:

I'm already aware that guesses need not be factual, but what the individual presupposes about anything has be be their reality - whether right or wrong.

How do you come up with that?

Why does a wild, blind guess have to be "their reality?"

What is so gratuitously presented to bolster your argument.

If a person says: There are no sentient beings alive on any planet circling any star within 20 light years of Sol...are you actually saying that THAT IS THEIR REALITY?

Can it not simply be a weird, totally inappropriate, possibly correct/possibly wrong GUESS?

Does it have to be "their reality?"

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@cicerone imposter,

cicerone imposter wrote:

I've not questioned that guesses can be right or wrong, only that it's the individual's reality. We are talking about the "definition of belief" on this thread. What I believe "is" my reality - right or wrong.

What you "believe", ci, IS WHAT YOU BELIEVE.

You want gratuituosly to frame it as "your reality" simply to make the point that cannot be made any other way.

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@Frank Apisa,

Quote:

Whatever the REALITY IS...it IS.

That, since it is a tautology...indicates that REALITY has to be objective.

You seem to think that repeating this ad nausea makes it true.

I think that if you had some actual arguments to support this contention, you would offer them. When you do not, I can only assume it is because you do not have them.

I am not impressed, Frank. Not only does it turn out that you do beliefs after all. It also turns out that you think of this belief as a fact, which makes you delusional.
There is absolutely no basis for asserting that reality is objective based on the assertion "reality is".

Your repeated insistence that there is, is merely due to your lack of understanding of the concept "objective".

Let's address that. Tell me how you understand the concept "objective". I am referring here to the concept as it is used in science and philosophy.

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Where is Matt when ya need him?

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@Frank Apisa,

Quote:

I do not do "beliefs." And one of the dangers of doing them is illustrated by your "beliefs" interfering with you ability to grasp this obvious concept.

Let me try to make this clear to you:

That something is objective means that each subject that seeks to verify it will get the same result.

It does not mean that what is objective is independent of observation. We have no basis to make that assertion.
You seem to think we do. That is a belief.
What's more, you seem unaware that this is indeed a belief. That makes you delusional.

This is a rather common misconception, similar to the idea that science is about explaining nature. This is not so. Science is about describing nature. There is a difference.

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@Cyracuz,

You wrote,

Quote:

That something is objective means that each subject that seeks to verify it will get the same result.

This is fundamental to understanding belief and reality.

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@Frank Apisa,

Quote:

We have a context here, Fresco. Chill!

No. You are all operating within different contexts. If you think religious belief has the same connotation as belief I am eating fish and chips, or belief that there will be an earthquake in San Fransisco this century, you are playing a game for simpletons.

1 Reply

@cicerone imposter,

I agree. It is also apparently a rather subtle point.

"Objectivity" does not speak to anything beyond perception. It speaks to that which within perception appears to exist freely and independently of said perception.

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@fresco,

Quote:

The semantic status of the words "belief" ,"guess", "reality" etc varies according to contextual usage.

This became apparent to me in the beginning of this thread, before all this ranting about reality and objectivity started.

I was trying to define or classify different assertions, and I kept arriving at contradictions and inconsistencies, as it seemed that the deciding factor wasn't in the assertions themselves, but perhaps rather in how we relate to them, which, as I understand it, would be the contextual usage.

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@Cyracuz,

Cyracuz wrote:

Quote:
Whatever the REALITY IS...it IS.

That, since it is a tautology...indicates that REALITY has to be objective.

You seem to think that repeating this ad nausea makes it true.

I think that if you had some actual arguments to support this contention, you would offer them. When you do not, I can only assume it is because you do not have them.

I am not impressed, Frank. Not only does it turn out that you do beliefs after all. It also turns out that you think of this belief as a fact, which makes you delusional.
There is absolutely no basis for asserting that reality is objective based on the assertion "reality is".

Your repeated insistence that there is, is merely due to your lack of understanding of the concept "objective".

Let's address that. Tell me how you understand the concept "objective". I am referring here to the concept as it is used in science and philosophy.

I do not care whether you are impressed or not, Cyracuz.

Whatever actually IS...IS.

If you cannot understand that...that is a problem with which you must dea.

Whatever the REALITY IS...it IS. There is no getting away from that.

Deal with it or reject it as you see fit.

1 Reply

@fresco,

fresco wrote:

Quote:
We have a context here, Fresco. Chill!

No. You are all operating within different contexts. If you think religious belief has the same connotation as belief I am eating fish and chips, or belief that there will be an earthquake in San Fransisco this century, you are playing a game for simpletons.

We have a context in which we were discussing that.

Chill out. You are getting heated.

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@Frank Apisa,

You have dropped that "objective" silliness, so I have no further arguments.

1 Reply

@Cyracuz,

Cyracuz wrote:

You have dropped that "objective" silliness, so I have no further arguments.

You mean I forgot to mention that REALITY is...and of necessity, must be...OBJECTIVE?

Well, let me mention it now:

REALITY is what IS...and what IS...IS.

It is objective.

It must be objective.

1 Reply

@Frank Apisa,

Quite obviously no one would disagree reality is what is, indeed there is no subjective position around that statement ! Wink

1 Reply

@Fil Albuquerque,

Fil Albuquerque wrote:

Quite obviously no one would disagree reality is what is, indeed there is no subjective position around that statement !

Seems to me to be "obvious", Fil. Not really sure why these other people are having so much trouble with it. (Although I suspect they think it is because they see something we are incapable of seeing.)

1 Reply

@Frank Apisa,

Quote,

Quote:

no one would disagree reality is what is,

No one has argued against this opinion.

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@cicerone imposter,

The point Frank is making is that if no one disagrees with that statement then that statement pretty much is objective...

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@Fil Albuquerque,

That's where we part ways.

Reality is what it is based on whether it is objective or subjective. It's not only "objective." People determine their own reality from subjective choices constrained by their genes and environment.

3 Replies

How is this definition of "belief"?

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