How is this definition of "belief"?

@Olivier5,

Olivier5 wrote:

Still, my point remains that there can be diminishing return on communication, especially when debaters lock themselves into a fighting mode. At some point, the debaters reach a plateau where no information actually gets exchanged anymore, only noise.

...I have no problem when a debater resorts to battle mode prevented in the least he is providing a shadow of a rational argument...fighting in philosophy is productive, but of course only when the minimum standard of logical ruling is accepted...and yes I grant you are right regarding no need to repeat the argument to infinity but given there is a fair chance the less committed reader gets confused I decided to batter the argument so it gets perfectly clear and sound in everyone else's mind...

1 Reply

@cicerone imposter,

cicerone imposter wrote:

True. Objective is when perceptions of it does not change with the observer.

But with REALITY...as has been pointed out several times...WHATEVER THE REALITY IS...THAT IS WHAT IT IS.

Our perceptions of the REALITY are not what is being discussed. We are discussing the REALITY.

IF the REALITY is dependent upon perceptions...no problem. Then THAT...IS what the REALITY is.

There simply is not getting away from it. Whatever the REALITY is...that is what it is. If it is dependent upon an observer....THAT IS WHAT IT IS. That objectively is the REALITY.

I truly do not understand why you two do not grasp that!

Unfortunately for us human animals, our perceptions differ by degrees depending on what the object/subject is.

That's the reason when five witnesses see an accident, their interpretations of what they saw can all be different! That's "subective."

If it were objective, everybody would tell the same story. It would be
"consistent" like the sun rising in the morning.

My "beliefs" about reality is different than yours; therefore "subjective."

[/quote]

1 Reply

@cicerone imposter,

cicerone imposter wrote:

True. Objective is when perceptions of it does not change with the observer. Unfortunately for us human animals, our perceptions differ by degrees depending on what the object/subject is.

That's the reason when five witnesses see an accident, their interpretations of what they saw can all be different! That's "subective."

If it were objective, everybody would tell the same story. It would be
"consistent" like the sun rising in the morning.

My "beliefs" about reality is different than yours; therefore "subjective."

Yes...your "beliefs" are subjective...but that does not mean that the REALITY is subjective...which it is not. The REALITY can only be objective, because whatever the REALITY IS...that is what it is.

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@Fil Albuquerque,

Quote:

given there is a fair chance the less committed reader gets confused I decided to batter the argument so it gets perfectly clear and sound in everyone else's mind...

I am sure you mean well, but don't over-estimate the amount of clarity that can emerge from mud fights...

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@Frank Apisa,

You wrote,

Quote:

But with REALITY...as has been pointed out several times...WHATEVER THE REALITY IS...THAT IS WHAT IT IS.

You're only talking about an individual's perception. Yes, it's their reality, but the observer's interpretation of it is subjective.

An individual can believe in one religion or another, while some believe in no religion. That is the difference in each individual's reality; it's subjective.

1 Reply

@cicerone imposter,

cicerone imposter wrote:

You wrote,
Quote:
But with REALITY...as has been pointed out several times...WHATEVER THE REALITY IS...THAT IS WHAT IT IS.

You're only talking about an individual's perception. Yes, it's their reality, but the observer's interpretation of it is subjective.

ci...I am NOT talking about any individual's perceptions at all. That is what you two are doing. I HAVE NO IDEA WHATEVER IF INDIVIDUAL PERCEPTIONS OF REALITY EFFECT REALITY IN ANY WAY...

...but I do KNOW that IF they do...then they do.

"IF they do"...then THAT is the REALITY. And it is objective...not subjective.

I will grant you...AND HAVE A DOZEN TIMES...that every observes perpective, interpretation, and considerations of reality ARE SUBJECTIVE.

But that does not make REALITY subjective. REALITY...(what actually is)...must be objective.

Quote:

An individual can believe in one religion or another, while some believe in no religion. That is the difference in each individual's reality; it's subjective.

Absolutely. And I have never said otherwise.

BUT THAT DOES NOT MAKE REALITY subjective...it only makes human understanding of and consideration about REALITY, subjective.

REALITY itself...IS what IS...and is objective.

1 Reply

@Frank Apisa,

How do you explain the individual's belief in any religion? That is their "reality."

1 Reply

@cicerone imposter,

cicerone imposter wrote:

How do you explain the individual's belief in any religion? That is their "reality."

That may be their supposition about reality...but that is not REALITY.

If their religion teaches that there is a GOD who made itself human and died for humankind's sins...and that is not the REALITY...

...it really does not matter what the person "believes" (or guesses).

I grant that we can all have subjective considerations about REALITY...and we can even call them perspectives, although more likely they are simply "guesses"...

...but that does not mean that the REALITY has to conform to those considerations or guesses.

2 Replies

@Frank Apisa,

They may conform in some way...but it does not necessarily follow that they must.

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@Frank Apisa,

So, you're saying their belief in their religion is not real? That they pray to their god and go to church is not real?

1 Reply

@cicerone imposter,

cicerone imposter wrote:

So, you're saying their belief in their religion is not real? That they pray to their god and go to church is not real?

cicerone imposter wrote:

So, you're saying their belief in their religion is not real?

Where did I say that? Where did I imply that?

Their guesses about REALITY are real guesses.

So what?

REALITY is...WHATEVER IS...not what they guess it is.

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@Frank Apisa,

Their guesses isn't their reality?

1 Reply

@cicerone imposter,

cicerone imposter wrote:

Their guesses isn't their reality?

No.

Their REALITY is whatever the reality actually is...and the reality may be that their guesses have nothing to do with it.

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@Frank Apisa,

You wrote,

Quote:

Their guesses about REALITY are real guesses.

REALITY is...WHATEVER IS...not what they guess it is.

Huh?>

So, what any individual does with their life are all guesses, and not real?

1 Reply

@cicerone imposter,

cicerone imposter wrote:

You wrote,
Quote:
Their guesses about REALITY are real guesses.

REALITY is...WHATEVER IS...not what they guess it is.

Huh?>

So, what any individual does with their life are all guesses, and not real?

What on Earth are you talking about? Where have I said that? Where have I intimated that?

1 Reply

@Frank Apisa,

You wrote,
Quote:

Quote:

Their guesses about REALITY are real guesses.

Quote:

REALITY is..................not what they guess it is.

I'm pretty good in English comprehension, so I'm wondering where we're crossing paths?

2 Replies

@cicerone imposter,

What Frank said is perfectly correct...guesses are guesses they are real in guessing about something else...but their guess needs not correspond to a fact, that's why they real guesses. When guesses do not correspond to facts they haven't stop being guesses.
Say I guess you are eating fish for dinner and I am wrong did my guess stop existing ? of course not my guess was a real guess it did happen but does not correspond to the truth of what you eat at dinner.

1 Reply

Word salad on top of word salad !

The semantic status of the words "belief" ,"guess", "reality" etc varies according to contextual usage. People who don't understand that will continue to talk past each other.

2 Replies

@cicerone imposter,

cicerone imposter wrote:

You wrote,
Quote:

Quote:
Their guesses about REALITY are real guesses.

Quote:
REALITY is..................not what they guess it is.

I'm pretty good in English comprehension, so I'm wondering where we're crossing paths?

I'm not sure where you crossed.

Yes...a person can make guesses about REALITY...and they are real gusses. They can guess that the Tampa Bay Bucs will win the Super Bowl next February...and it would be a real guess.

That certainly does not mean the guess must be correct.

Whichever team wins the Super Bowl...will be the team that wins the Super Bowl.

The person can have a guess about reality...but REALITY is whatever it is.

The guess is real...but that doesn't mean that it is correct.

1 Reply

@fresco,

fresco wrote:

Word salad on top of word salad !

The semantic status of the words "belief" ,"guess", "reality" etc varies according to contextual usage. People who don't understand that will continue to talk past each other.

We have a context here, Fresco. Chill!

1 Reply

How is this definition of "belief"?

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