How is this definition of "belief"?

@Cyracuz,

Cyracuz wrote:

Quote:
Try to get back on track...and we can talk
.

I'm on track. Read up on the term "objectivity", and how it is used in philosophy, and then we can talk.

Cyracuz...there is no way REALITY can be anything but objective...because whatever IS...simply IS.

It is an argument you cannot win...because "winning" it would make you a loser.

Whatever actually IS...IS.

If you were to PROVE by divine providence that REALITY is subjective...THEN "REALITY is subjective" would objectively be the REALITY.

Now...it cannot happen, even if only because of the inherent self-contradiction.

Whatever the REALITY...that is what it IS.

That is objective...regardless of what it IS.

That is why I can say with complete confidence that REALITY MUST BE OBJECTIVE.

1 Reply

@cicerone imposter,

cicerone imposter wrote:

But human reality is subjective. We can perceive the same object from different viewpoints. That makes it subjective.

Some people even hallucinates; that's subjective more often than not!

Human reality is per se an object, it is what it is...what humans think about their own reality is what can be subjective...
...hallucinations to exist, need be real hallucinations, what they intend to refer to, is what is not being real. Can you tell the difference from those 2 ?

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@Fil Albuquerque,

Fil Albuquerque wrote:

You think I should not take it seriously ??? Can't you see the rotten move intention there ?
...imagine someone pops in to read only the last few posts...I have all right even obligation to defend myself from a sour losing bully !

Fil...obviously ci is unable to see the difference between REALITY...and perceptions of reality. The difference has been explained several times...but there seems to be no grasping it for ci.

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@Fil Albuquerque,

"It is what it is," but human perceptions differ - so their/our reality differs. Therefore, human reality is subjective.

Human genes and environments differ by degrees; therefore our perceptions of "life on earth" can differ by degrees. It's still the "same world" that evolves through evolutionary changes, e.g. climate.

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@JTT,

There is that.
But i wouldn't say that now. I confessed my suspicion that Fil and igm is actually one poster with two accounts, and since then they have both been out to get me. I don't think they want gloves. Smile

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@Frank Apisa,

...you know Frank someone close to me advise me long time ago to stop trying to teach people who either can't or don't want to learn any more they know or believe, to stop trying everyone to get to reason...if I had followed the advise I would have drop out of this thread after my 1 post explaining why the pseudo hypothesis is flawed...my love of making people get stuff out of my own joy when I get new stuff has been a prejudice to me...

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@ Fil

ci wrote:

Quote:

"It is what it is," but human perceptions differ - so their/our reality differs. Therefore, human reality is subjective.

Human genes and environments differ by degrees; therefore our perceptions of "life on earth" can differ by degrees. It's still the "same world" that evolves through evolutionary changes, e.g. climate.

Once again, Fil...it is apparent that ci cannot differentiate between REALITY...and human perceptions and considerations of REALITY. We can all have subjective considerations about what IS...but what IS...IS.

Amazing that he cannot (or will not) allow that obvious truth to penetrate...and that he persists in framing his arguments in a way that shows he cannot make the distinction.

@ ci...

...why are you blocking this from penetrating?

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@Fil Albuquerque,

Your reputation, Fil, is more in danger from you that it ever was from me. I will not claim credit for your hard work in ruining it.

Quote:

Unless someone can clearly show the self consistency and validity of the hypothesis that reality to be real needs a subjective account, (I shown why it can't be not even a if) by exclusion of hypothesis (there is 2 only so far that I know of) reality is, as a whole, the object it is ! Which equals to say, reality is Objective ! Again it is what it is !

The only thing you have proved is that you can't process this subject without confusing yourself and anyone who tries to understand you.

To say that reality is what it is, is not the same as saying it's objective.

You demonstrated your lack of understanding of what "objective" means a few pages back. I asked you to tell me what it means, and what you told me simply isn't right.

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@cicerone imposter,

No CI you don't transform human reality into say..a wolf just by falsely perceiving you are a wolf ! Anyone can testify you are not a wolf even if deludely you perceive yourself as one ! So Human reality it is what it is as exactly human delusions are not wine, they are objective real delusions !

...if you perceive yourself as a wolf then the delusion is exactly that, you think you are a wolf not a duck or a chicken ! Even the object of what you are thinking deludely is clear !

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@Frank Apisa,

Quote:

Cyracuz...there is no way REALITY can be anything but objective...because whatever IS...simply IS.

This demonstrates that you have misunderstood the concept of "objectivity".

That is all I have to say. Address this, and we can move further if you still want to discuss it.

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"Objective" refers to the object THAT WHICH IS THE CASE !!!
While it is true that humans might never be able to refer to the object, to correctly interpret the object, reality, the object, it is what it is !

Lets see if we can set the record straight:

Human reality it is NOT what humans think, although what humans think is a part of human reality !
My thinking if human is human, and not say, duck thinking, because I am a human ! When we say human thinking belongs to humans we are saying human thinking refers to human objective reality. That which makes a human human !

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@Frank Apisa,

Quote:

Fil...obviously ci is unable to see the difference between REALITY...and perceptions of reality.

How can you assert that there is a difference if THE ONLY THING YOU CAN ACCESS is perceptions of reality?

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@Fil Albuquerque,

Quote:

"Objective" refers to the object THAT WHICH IS THE CASE !!!

This is simply not true.

I say again: This is not what "objective" means.

Let's keep it at that, for now. Can you tell me what "Objective" means?

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Objective refers to the object...what is put into question is not the objectivity of the object per se but the perception, that which tries to refer to the object in the claim of "objectivity", pardon me the redundancy, but it seams needed given the amount of stupidity at play...

THIS IS EXACTLY AND FLAWLESSLY WHAT OBJECTIVE MEANS !

1 Reply

@Fil Albuquerque,

No, Fil. It is not, and no amount of shouting will make it so.

Here is what "objectivity" means in science (from wiki):

Quote:

Objectivity in science is a value that informs how science is practiced and how scientific truths are created. It is the idea that scientists, in attempting to uncover truths about the natural world, must aspire to eliminate personal biases, a priori commitments, emotional involvement, etc.[1] Objectivity is often attributed to the property of scientific measurement, as the accuracy of a measurement can be tested independent from the individual scientist who first reports it.[citation needed] It is thus intimately related to the aim of testability and reproducibility.

Here's what it means in philosophy:

Quote:

Objectivity is a central philosophical concept, related to reality and truth, which has been variously defined by sources. Generally, objectivity means the state or quality of being true even outside of a subject's individual feelings, imaginings, or interpretations. A proposition is generally considered to be objectively true (to have objective truth) when its truth conditions are met and are "mind-independent"—that is, existing freely or independently from a mind (from the thoughts, feelings, ideas, etc. of a sentient subject). In a simpler meaning of the term, objectivity refers to the ability to judge fairly, without bias or external influence. that also occur as phinomological way.

Do you see the problem?
Do you see why we cannot state objectivity as a fact about reality?

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As anyone able to read calmly will see the provided references just proved my description of "objective" ! Now people, go read them n compared them to my description if you will please since the poster who provided them is dumb !

There is a distinction to say REALITY IS OBJECTIVE (what it is, an object per se) and that our perception of reality is itself objective IN THE REFERRING itself which needs not refer, its a belief, because although confusingly but correctly, it is objective in the sense, it is our objectively happening perception, accounting our own subjectivity !

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@Fil Albuquerque,

Quote:

As anyone able to read calmly will see the provided references just proved my description of "objective" !

How so? Please explain.

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I am in hopes the average human IQ is good enough to establish I am right !
(If not we are all doomed to extinction pretty soon no joking)
Thank you all very much for quietly and slowly reading and comparing the provided references against my own battered to death ad nausea explanation upon the otherwise obvious !

1 Reply

@Fil Albuquerque,

And again you reveal that it is all sophistry with you.
When you are asked to actually explain yourself, you turn to rhetoric and showmanship to try and weasel out of it with a semblance of dignity.
But this bubble has grown too big to burst in silence.
Please account for how you see the explanations I provided as supporting your claim of what "objective" means, when it in fact shows that objectivity depends on subjective observers for it's very definition.

As I have explained before, when you take "objectivity" out of it's original context (see provided explanations of the concept), it no longer has any meaning.

You seem oblivious to the fact that "objectivity" is far from a problem free concept. It is hotly contested whether or not anything can be truly objective. Maybe it just seems that way because all the subjects have the same conditions of perception? We cannot know this.
Therefore, your claim that "reality is objective" is a fact, is bogus.
That is all.

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Objective is not problematic, objective is the object per se, what is problematic is what in our discourse intends to refer to, as being objective referring, it needs not refer, thus we might not be objective, that is we objectively fail, being objective, we fail the referring...the problem of having or not having true knowledge ! If there was no objective reality our own knowledge would have nothing objective to intend to refer and as a tentative itself would not be anything objective, that is, a tentative is a tentative (trying) objectively, requires itself objective being !

1 Reply

How is this definition of "belief"?

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