How is this definition of "belief"?

Here's a very good article on subjective vs objective. We all need a frame of reference for what we are talking about. This is a good place to start.

http://www.differencebetween.net/language/difference-between-objective-and-subjective/

0 Replies

@Cyracuz,

Cyracuz wrote:

Quote:
Cyracuz...there is no way REALITY can be anything but objective...because whatever IS...simply IS.

This demonstrates that you have misunderstood the concept of "objectivity".

That is all I have to say. Address this, and we can move further if you still want to discuss it.

If you want to pretend this is merely a case of me misunderstanding a concept...you are free to do so. You can leave the discussion feeling you really showed me what was what!

One does not even have to KNOW what the REALITY is (actually, none of us can)...let alone PROVE what it is...

...in order to make an assertion about it such as: It IS whatever it IS.

I know what objectivity IS.

I know that I do not KNOW what the REALITY is.

And I can say absolutely that whatever the REALITY is...it is. That makes it objective. It is...whatever it is.

If you do not want to discuss it...fine.

But you do....you want to assert that it is subjective...that we humans (or more recently, some sentient being) must have considerations about it or it cannot be.

Now...PERHAPS the REALITY is that unless some sentient being actually has considerations about it...it isn't.

IF THAT IS THE CASE, HOWEVER...

...then the REALITY objectively IS THAT.

I suspect, Cyracuz, that on some level you realize that those of us trying to put that point across are correct...

...but because you have an investment in a "belief" about reality that cannot accomodate that, so you must insist that it is wrong.

Shame on you.

1 Reply

@Cyracuz,

Cyracuz wrote:

Quote:
Fil...obviously ci is unable to see the difference between REALITY...and perceptions of reality.

How can you assert that there is a difference if THE ONLY THING YOU CAN ACCESS is perceptions of reality?

Easily.

The REALITY can be totally independent of the perceptions.

2 Replies

@Frank Apisa,

Exactly and THAT does not exclude that our perceptions are themselves a part of reality they objectively happen to us even if they might be wrong !
Our perception is independent for reality to be what it is, even if our perception is a part of reality n thus dependent on reality being what it is !

0 Replies

@Frank Apisa,

Quote:

The REALITY can be totally independent of the perceptions.

Can be?
Are you saying this is an option reality has?
How do you know that?
Have you experienced it outside of any perception, without the presence of any other kind of perception? That would seem rather impossible, wouldn't it?

2 Replies

@Cyracuz,

I agree with Frank on this one. Reality exists whether humans can perceive and/or describe them or not.

1 Reply

Perceiving reality, either wrong or right, does not matter, is itself independent of our perceiving (the event of being at perceiving) of perception (the event of believing "Y" or "K" about such event), a happening reality per se...if we are perceiving A and B, wrong or right, we are OBJECTIVELY perceiving A or B...perceiving is itself happening no matter if we know our perceiving is right or wrong ! Anything is objectively a part of reality, even the concept of "reality", which intends to refer to Reality, whatever OBJECTIVELY is BEING !
"X" is what is the case, including perceptions which are REAL happening perceptions, wrong or right !

1 Reply

@Fil Albuquerque,

Quote:

Objective is not problematic

Then explain it, if it's not problematic.

Quote:

objective is the object per se

It is not, as I have demonstrated. Saying it is still doesn't make it so. Wink

Quote:

what is problematic is what in our discourse intends to refer to, as being objective referring, it needs not refer, thus we might not be objective, that is we objectively fail, being objective, we fail the referring...the problem of having or not having true knowledge !

Again you demonstrate that you are a blathering fool. I understand what words mean, even if you do not. That meaningless jumble of words above may look impressive to you, but to me it looks like something Newton's parrot might say, if he had one.

Quote:

If there was no objective reality our own knowledge would have nothing objective to intend to refer and as a tentative itself would not be anything objective, that is, a tentative is a tentative (trying) objectively, requires itself objective being !

And here it is revealed! What you are saying is that reality has to be objective, because you can't imagine how else it could be.
That's how some religious people explain how they know God exists, Fil. It has to be that way. It's just so OBVIOUS!!

0 Replies

@Fil Albuquerque,

Fil, We don't "objectively" perceive reality. It's always subjective to the individual. There are some matters that are "objective" within our reality that remains constant whether humans can describe/perceive them or not.

The sun "rises" in the morning; it's an objective reality.

2 Replies

@cicerone imposter,

Quote:

I agree with Frank on this one. Reality exists whether humans can perceive and/or describe them or not.

I feel the same way. I believe reality exists whether humans can perceive and/or describe them or not.

It seems extremely likely.

All I am saying is that we can not know this for sure. It is not a definite and proven fact. It is an extremely plausible assumption.

0 Replies

@Cyracuz,

Cyracuz wrote:

Quote:
The REALITY can be totally independent of the perceptions.

Can be?
Are you saying this is an option reality has?

No, I am not saying that at all.

The REALITY can be totally independent of the perceptions of it.

I do not know if it is...I do not know that it isnt'...and I suspect you do not either.

Quote:

How do you know that?

How do I know REALITY might be totally independent of perceptions????

C'mon. I DO NOT KNOW what the REALITY is...and I cannot exclude ANYTHING from it...so I cannot exclude the possibility that REALITY is totally independent of human perceptions.

Quote:

Have you experienced it outside of any perception, without the presence of any other kind of perception? That would seem rather impossible, wouldn't it?

Only to someone who is accepting that it is on FAITH. You sound to me like a Jehovah's Witness say that the possibility of the non-existence of gods seems rather impossible.

1 Reply

@cicerone imposter,

cicerone imposter wrote:

Fil, We don't "objectively" perceive reality.

I cannot conceive of this being incorrect, ci. It almost certainly is correct.

Quote:

It's always subjective to the individual.

Same comment.

0 Replies

@cicerone imposter,

Quote:

Fil, We don't "objectively" perceive reality.

Please take notice on where you are misunderstanding...

...if we didn't objectively perceived in reality we would not be able to have perceptions...now, what you meant to say is that what we perceive, itself happening to us, DOES NOR REFER, or better, it needs not really refer to what is reality, and I agree ! The perceiving itself is perceiving not dinning !

1 Reply

@Frank Apisa,

Quote:

I DO NOT KNOW what the REALITY is...and I cannot exclude ANYTHING from it...so I cannot exclude the possibility that REALITY is totally independent of human perceptions.

That is what I have been trying to communicate all along. Apparently, I must apologize for doing it so poorly.

But if you cannot exclude anything from it, you cannot exclude the possibility that reality is totally or partially (or anythingly) dependent of perception.
We cannot know that there is anything at all beyond our senses.
It seems extremely likely, but we have no definite proof.
Therefore, we can not say that it is a fact that reality is objective.

Now, since I am supposed to be doing a better job at explaining myself now, I hasten to add that I understand what you meant when you said that phrase.

I agree with that assertion.
That REALITY IS, is an objective fact. It is a condition for any further inquiry, as Fil says.

But that sentiment is not what the phrase "reality is objective" conveys.
This is a semantic issue, and for me it has been so all along. The metaphysics of grammar, so to speak.

1 Reply

@Fil Albuquerque,

For the last time, perceptions are subjective.

Quote:

Yaoi Shonen-ai
Best Answer - Chosen by Asker

No. Perceptions are the memory of sensations. We do not feel the actual sensation, the impulses of electricity and chemicals that flow from our fingers to brains, we feel what those impulses and flows do to us. The same is true with our eyes: we do not sense the wavelengths, we sense what the wavelengths have done to our occular organs. We do not remember what the wavelengths of light felt like; we remember the image carried on the wavelengths.

In order to have a perception of material outside of our minds, our sensory organs must have had an objective moment of sensory perception. That is the objective part of all empirical events between our organs and the material.
It is the perception which that causes in our mind that is the subjective element.

The immediate sensory experience is objective. The perception caused by the experience is subjective.

" A "perception" is a group of sensations automatically retained and integrated by the brain of a living organism, which gives it the ability to be aware, not of single stimuli, but of entities, of things."
Source(s):
http://www.aynrandlexicon.com/lexicon/pe…

1 Reply

@cicerone imposter,

FORE THE LAST TIME PERCEPTIONS HAPPEN, THEY ARE OBJECTIVE !
Percepts are subjective (that which is being perceived intending to refer to something else) Get it ? Not ? I am sorry then !

0 Replies

@Cyracuz,

Cyracuz wrote:

Quote:
I DO NOT KNOW what the REALITY is...and I cannot exclude ANYTHING from it...so I cannot exclude the possibility that REALITY is totally independent of human perceptions.

That is what I have been trying to communicate all along. Apparently, I must apologize for doing it so poorly.

But if you cannot exclude anything from it, you cannot exclude the possibility that reality is totally or partially (or anythingly) dependent of perception.
We cannot know that there is anything at all beyond our senses.
It seems extremely likely, but we have no definite proof.
Therefore, we can not say that it is a fact that reality is objective.

YES, Cyracuz, we can. We can say that whether or not we can have definite proof...the logic is that WHAT IS...IS...and therefore, REALITY is objective.

Quote:

Now, since I am supposed to be doing a better job at explaining myself now, I hasten to add that I understand what you meant when you said that phrase.

I agree with that assertion.
That REALITY IS, is an objective fact. It is a condition for any further inquiry, as Fil says.

But that sentiment is not what the phrase "reality is objective" conveys.
This is a semantic issue, and for me it has been so all along. The metaphysics of grammar, so to speak.

We are apparently talking past each other on this...and I can think of no way to remedy that situation.

2 Replies

@Frank Apisa,

You wrote,

Quote:

We are apparently talking past each other on this...and I can think of no way to remedy that situation.

I can agree with this opinion. Mr. Green

1 Reply

@cicerone imposter,

cicerone imposter wrote:

You wrote,
Quote:
We are apparently talking past each other on this...and I can think of no way to remedy that situation.

I can agree with this opinion.

ci, by now, I suspect everyone can agree with that.

Still hope we have a chance to down a drink or two together some day!

And I can think of several people in this thread I'd like to be drinking along with us!

2 Replies

@Frank Apisa,

I would gladly take a drink with any of you guys !

1 Reply

How is this definition of "belief"?

Related Topics

Quick Links

My Account

able2know