How is this definition of "belief"?

@Olivier5,

I know and loosely agree with it as a metaphor ! (But it worries me because it endangers and undermines perception of basic mathematics and Logic...Cantor is enough already...)

1 Reply

@Fil Albuquerque,

Really?
So, that was why, when I asked you if...

"there is a state of affairs no matter what we can know about it"

...was a fact, a belief, or a guess, you answered fact?

1 Reply

@Cyracuz,

Cyracuz wrote:

Really?
So, that was why, when I asked you if...

"there is a state of affairs no matter what we can know about it"

...was a fact, a belief, or a guess, you answered fact?

Yes ! If you take reality out of the picture you take questions out of the picture to !
(doubts and uncertainty included)

2 Replies

@Fil Albuquerque,

Quote:

I know and loosely agree with it as a metaphor ! (But it worries me because it endangers and undermines perception of basic mathematics and Logic...Cantor is enough already...)

No, it don't. On the contrary, it highlights the importance of information, of form.

1 Reply

@Frank Apisa,

I'm saying that it can be uncertain that all beliefs about reality are disguised guesses but you are saying that is incorrect it is certain that all beliefs about reality are disguised guesses. I'm asking how you can be certain when I am uncertain and can see how others could also be uncertain about this.

2 Replies

@Fil Albuquerque,

I cannot say reality is a guess because me saying it proves reality already real !

0 Replies

@Olivier5,

Olivier5 wrote:

Quote:
I know and loosely agree with it as a metaphor ! (But it worries me because it endangers and undermines perception of basic mathematics and Logic...Cantor is enough already...)

No, it don't. On the contrary, it highlights the importance of information, of form.

No you don't what ? I agree it highlights the importance of form and information but shouldn't do it at the cost of Logic...

1 Reply

@Fil Albuquerque,

Quote:

I agree it highlights the importance of form and information but shouldn't do it at the cost of Logic...

No cost to logic that I can see.

0 Replies

@Fil Albuquerque,

I think you just mindfucked yourself.
According to what you are now saying, "god wears pink on Thursdays" is a fact.

1 Reply

@igm,

igm wrote:

I'm saying that it can be uncertain that all beliefs about reality are disguised guesses but you are saying that is incorrect it is certain that all beliefs about reality are disguised guesses. I'm asking how you can be certain when I am uncertain and can see how others could also be uncertain about this.

You may be on to something, igm. I'm willing to have you convince me. Can you give me a few examples of "beliefs" that you are uncertain are guesses...and which I should be uncertain about also.

Please keep in mind the exemptions I made to "all." Essentially they are two:

What IS, IS. That is not a guess...it is a tautology.

If there is a GOD...we cannot discount the possibility that the GOD can disclose its existence at any time, by any means, and to whomever IT chooses. So an assertion that "I know there is a GOD"...could possibly not be a guess...but then, it is not a "belief" either.

Give your examples...and let's discuss them. I promise if you convince me I am wrong, I will acknolwedge that you have.

2 Replies

@Cyracuz,

Cyracuz wrote:

I think you just mindfucked yourself.
According to what you are now saying, "god wears pink on Thursdays" is a fact.

Not at all...according to myself the assumption that God bla bla bla is a real assumption...you just did it !

1 Reply

@Fil Albuquerque,

I did not ask if it is a real assumption. I asked if it was a fact.

I also did not ask if your initial assertion was a real assertion. I asked if it was a fact, belief or guess.

1 Reply

@igm,

igm wrote:

I'm saying that it can be uncertain that all beliefs about reality are disguised guesses but you are saying that is incorrect it is certain that all beliefs about reality are disguised guesses. I'm asking how you can be certain when I am uncertain and can see how others could also be uncertain about this.

I suppose someone who truly believes having sufficient information about reality isn't disguising anything when it states he believes it once he doesn't know he doesn't know that he has not sufficient information. While a belief may imply a guess it needs not to imply awareness of guessing !

0 Replies

@Olivier5,

Olivier5 wrote:

The structure and function, i.e. the way the parts are assembled and function together, is what is much more than the sum of he parts. It takes a lot of real work to assemble the car, and that's what you pay for in a car, which you don't pay if you buy a pile of parts. But then, A pile of parts cannot be driven to the mall.

Answer my question now. :-)

I need to ask more questions...

So, a car is a collection of parts assembled into a structure that functions. Doesn't that make the car a label that describes that? There is no truly existent car, we literally don't drive a car because that is just a label; we drive a collection of parts that are assembled into a structure that functions. Cars don't exist except as concepts and labels... correct?

Also, the structure is constantly changing and so is its functions. The parts are constantly changing... where is the car whilst all this change constantly takes place? The car is just a label used to describe parts structured in a way that enables a function and those structures and functions and parts... never remain the same from one moment to the next... what does that say about the concept 'car'?

1 Reply

@Cyracuz,

Cyracuz wrote:

I did not ask if it is a real assumption. I asked if it was a fact.

I also did not ask if your initial assertion was a real assertion. I asked if it was a fact, belief or guess.

A real assumption is a fact !
My initial assertion is a fact !
Try correspond...

1 Reply

@Fil Albuquerque,

Your initial assertion is a belief.

1 Reply

@Cyracuz,

Cyracuz wrote:

Your initial assertion is a belief.

Is that a fact or a belief ? I would reason its a fact you said that but that it corresponds to nothing other then your expectations...

1 Reply

@igm,

Quote:

I need to ask more questions...

First answer my question. That will help you understand.

1 Reply

@Fil Albuquerque,

It corresponds to the correct understanding of what 'unknowable' means.

Here's what you said:

Quote:

there is a true state of affairs no matter what we can tell about it

You then said that this is a fact.
But it is not a fact. Here's a fact: Your assertion is unknowable. It is logically impossible to ever verify it.

1 Reply

@Cyracuz,

Cyracuz wrote:

It corresponds to the correct understanding of what 'unknowable' means.

Here's what you said:

Quote:
there is a true state of affairs no matter what we can tell about it

You then said that this is a fact.
But it is not a fact. Here's a fact: Your assertion is unknowable. It is logically impossible to ever verify it.

How can you assert that reality being real is unknowable without a reality to assert it ?

1 Reply

How is this definition of "belief"?

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