How is this definition of "belief"?

@Fil Albuquerque,

Quote:

How can you assert that reality being real is unknowable without a reality to assert it ?

I can't. But that assertion isn't "no matter what we can tell about it". It is precisely what we can tell about it. That does not prove that there is any kind of reality no matter what we can tell about it.

1 Reply

@Olivier5,

Olivier5 wrote:

Answer my question now. :-)

Would you then be ready to pay the same price for an assembled car and for a non-assembled pile of spare parts?

No, I wouldn't but this is a philosophical discussion not a conventional one.

I'd like to discuss if a car truly exists or if a car is nothing more than a label or concept. See my previous post quoted below.

igm wrote:

Olivier5 wrote:

The structure and function, i.e. the way the parts are assembled and function together, is what is much more than the sum of he parts. It takes a lot of real work to assemble the car, and that's what you pay for in a car, which you don't pay if you buy a pile of parts. But then, A pile of parts cannot be driven to the mall.

I need to ask more questions...

So, a car is a collection of parts assembled into a structure that functions. Doesn't that make the car a label that describes that? There is no truly existent car, we literally don't drive a car because that is just a label; we drive a collection of parts that are assembled into a structure that functions. Cars don't exist except as concepts and labels... correct?

Also, the structure is constantly changing and so is its functions. The parts are constantly changing... where is the car whilst all this change constantly takes place? The car is just a label used to describe parts structured in a way that enables a function and those structures and functions and parts... never remain the same from one moment to the next... what does that say about the concept 'car'?

1 Reply

@Cyracuz,

Cyracuz wrote:

Quote:
How can you assert that reality being real is unknowable without a reality to assert it ?

I can't. But that assertion isn't "no matter what we can tell about it". It is precisely what we can tell about it. That does not prove that there is any kind of reality no matter what we can tell about it.

"No matter what you can tell about it" doesn't state anything about what you can or cannot tell about it except that it doesn't matter once as soon you question reality reality is there...it is a tautology to state that reality is real...you are not informing anything about reality by saying it is real.

1 Reply

@Frank Apisa,

Frank Apisa wrote:

igm wrote:

I'm saying that it can be uncertain that all beliefs about reality are disguised guesses but you are saying that is incorrect it is certain that all beliefs about reality are disguised guesses. I'm asking how you can be certain when I am uncertain and can see how others could also be uncertain about this.

You may be on to something, igm. I'm willing to have you convince me. Can you give me a few examples of "beliefs" that you are uncertain are guesses...and which I should be uncertain about also.

Please keep in mind the exemptions I made to "all." Essentially they are two:

What IS, IS. That is not a guess...it is a tautology.

If there is a GOD...we cannot discount the possibility that the GOD can disclose its existence at any time, by any means, and to whomever IT chooses. So an assertion that "I know there is a GOD"...could possibly not be a guess...but then, it is not a "belief" either.

Give your examples...and let's discuss them. I promise if you convince me I am wrong, I will acknolwedge that you have.

Ok Frank I'm quite busy today... but I'll think about your post and get back to you...

0 Replies

@igm,

Quote:

No, I wouldn't but this is a philosophical discussion not a conventional one.

Nothing to see with conventions. You are ready to spend good money on the STRUCTURE of a car, hence you understand that the structure exists.

Quote:

I'd like to discuss if a car truly exists or if a car is nothing more than a label or concept.

How much would you be ready to pay for a piece of paper labelled "car"?

1 Reply

@Olivier5,

Olivier5 wrote:

Quote:
No, I wouldn't but this is a philosophical discussion not a conventional one.

Nothing to see with conventions. You are ready to spend good money on the STRUCTURE of a car, hence you understand that the structure exists.

Quote:
I'd like to discuss if a car truly exists or if a car is nothing more than a label or concept.

How much would you be ready to pay for a piece of paper labelled "car"?

Not much. Are you going to answer my questions raised in my last post?

2 Replies

@igm,

I believe the concept of what a car is truly applies to an actual object not because that object is not subject to constant change but because the concept of car allows for a tolerance on the amount of change in the extended "field" of what is considered to be a car...what it means is that a narrow field of changes does not alter the structural major functions of what a car should be being from concept to reality...if these major functions stop operating you can go from a "car" to a "car wreck" or into a "car set of parts", but then you lose the "car"...if you brake a mirror for instance the amount of change is not enough to dismiss the concept applying in that "field" or range of functional factual operability.

2 Replies

@Fil Albuquerque,

Quote:

you are not informing anything about reality by saying it is real.

Agreed. You are not informing anything new about assertions either by saying they are real assertions.

I think you are just trying to worm your way out of admitting that you made a mistake.
The bottom line is that your assertion, which you said was a fact, is instead a belief. Or at best a guess. It is clearly unknowable, in any case. Can you admit that?

1 Reply

@igm,

Quote:

Not much. Are you going to answer my questions raised in my last post?

You answered it already: the label is only a label, it is not the real car. It only symbolizes the car.

As for the part moving, 1) that's only when the car works, so you have no problem aggreeing to your immediate, "conventional" experience of an existing car when the engine is off; 2) when the car moves, the parts move relative to one another but only within a very limitted range or degree of freedom. The piston goes up and down over a course of a few cm, the wheels turn around their axis, etc. Now if a wheel would detach from the car, you'd have a problem, but as long as it moves within its designed degree of freedom, you still have a running car.

Imagine carrying a bucket of water. The molecules of water are permanently moving, but as long as they stay in the bucket, you have a bucket of water.

1 Reply

@Fil Albuquerque,

Quote:

a narrow field of changes does not alter the structural major functions of what a car should be

Actually, the possibility of these narrow, limitted changes in the structure is NECESSARY for the car to work, and to be called a car. A car where all the parts would be welded to one another is not much of a car.

1 Reply

@Olivier5,

Exactly !

0 Replies

@Cyracuz,

No Cyr I am not being picky with you...Reality cannot be questioned without first admitting reality...so if it can't be questioned to the purpose of admitting reality is real without immediately assuming it, whatever you can say or not doesn't matter for that specific purpose...none of it impedes that we don't know much about how reality truly operates....and this is my sincere opinion.
Take it as you want...

1 Reply

@Frank Apisa,

Frank Apisa wrote:

If there is a GOD...we cannot discount the possibility that the GOD can disclose its existence at any time, by any means, and to whomever IT chooses. So an assertion that "I know there is a GOD"...could possibly not be a guess...but then, it is not a "belief" either.

Based on your last post Frank, let's explore one of your two exemptions because you say that the second (see above) is possibly not a guess but is also not a belief.

It is a belief that you could not reasonably call a guess or anything other than a belief without using a word or words that is/are synonymous with the word belief.

To explain:

person A: God spoke to me so I know he exists.

1. Frank: Well I can't say that your knowledge that God exists is a guess if it really was God who spoke to you but if it wasn't but instead was the voice of someone or something other than God it would not be knowledge but a guess.

Or you could say this Frank:

2. Frank: Well I can't say that your knowledge that God exists is a guess if it really was God who spoke to you but if it wasn't but instead was the voice of someone or something other than God it would not be knowledge but a 'mistaken belief' on your part.

Frank: I have know way of knowing whether God spoke to you and I can't call your so called knowledge a guess so it is either knowledge of God's existence or a mistaken belief.

I'd say that option 2 is your only option unless you use a word or words that are synonymous with the word belief.

1 Reply

@Fil Albuquerque,

Fil Albuquerque wrote:

I believe the concept of what a car is truly applies to an actual object not because that object is not subject to constant change but because the concept of car allows for a tolerance on the amount of change in the extended "field" of what is considered to be a car...what it means is that a narrow field of changes does not alter the structural major functions of what a car should be being from concept to reality...if these major functions stop operating you can go from a "car" to a "car wreck" or into a "car set of parts", but then you lose the "car"...if you brake a mirror for instance the amount of change is not enough to dismiss the concept applying in that "field" or range of functional factual operability.

If an object changes how can it remain the same object? Isn't it the concept that accommodates the new object appearing in the next moment but infact there is nothing about that new object in the next moment that is identical with the object from the previous moment. It is just concepts and labels being applied to wholly 'new' objects... isn't it?

0 Replies

I see . . . so if i have a pair of shoes, which wear at the heels to a noticeable extent after a year, apparently, based on what you are claiming, they have ceased to be a pair of shoes, because they have changed. I'll tell ya . . . ya learn something new every day.

0 Replies

@igm,

igm wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:

If there is a GOD...we cannot discount the possibility that the GOD can disclose its existence at any time, by any means, and to whomever IT chooses. So an assertion that "I know there is a GOD"...could possibly not be a guess...but then, it is not a "belief" either.

Based on your last post Frank, let's explore one of your two exemptions because you say that the second (see above) is possibly not a guess but is also not a belief.

It is a belief that you could not reasonably call a guess or anything other than a belief without using a word or words that is/are synonymous with the word belief.

To explain:

person A: God spoke to me so I know he exists.

1. Frank: Well I can't say that your knowledge that God exists is a guess if it really was God who spoke to you but if it wasn't but instead was the voice of someone or something other than God it would not be knowledge but a guess.

Or you could say this Frank:

2. Frank: Well I can't say that your knowledge that God exists is a guess if it really was God who spoke to you but if it wasn't but instead was the voice of someone or something other than God it would not be knowledge but a 'mistaken belief' on your part.

Frank: I have know way of knowing whether God spoke to you and I can't call your so called knowledge a guess so it is either knowledge of God's existence or a mistaken belief.

I'd say that option 2 is your only option unless you use a word or words that are synonymous with the word belief.

This commentary of yours is completely unfathomable to me. I've read it several times...and I cannot make heads nor tails of it. Whatever you were trying to get across missed me completely.

IF THERE IS A GOD, The assertion: "I know there is a God" may or may not be a guess.

IF THERE IS A GOD...the GOD could communicate proof of its existence to someone...and the someone could factually assert: I know there is a GOD. That would mean it is NOT a guess.

I acknowledge that unless the GOD has also communicated proof of its existence to the others to whom the original person is making the assertion...there is no way for them to know if the assertion is a guess or not. (Most would probably ASSUME it to be a guess.)

So there is absolutely nothing illogical about my comment that it could possibly not be a guess.

Now to the other part of the exemption: It is not a "belief" either, because it is not being presented as a belief. It is being presented as an assertion. It is either "not a guess" (under the circumstances outlined above)...or it is a lie.

Why not just accept the two exemptions for now...and provide me with a couple of examples of so-called "beliefs" in the REALITY about which you are uncertain are disguised guesses. You assert they exist...and I have conceded that you may be on to something. Just give me an example or two...and let's discuss them. Maybe your are correct...maybe you are incorrect.

1 Reply

@Olivier5,

Olivier5 wrote:

Imagine carrying a bucket of water. The molecules of water are permanently moving, but as long as they stay in the bucket, you have a bucket of water.

Ok... I've imagined that in the next moment I have completely changed, so to has the bucket, and every molecule of water, there has been evaporation etc. etc. the label and concept can still be applied but to an object that is entirely different from the one I began carrying. There is no truly existent bucket of water but my concept and labelling of it accommodates this change and hides the fact that no bucket of water in one moment is identical in anyway in the next moment. There is no truly existent object that is a car or a bucket of water.

1 Reply

@igm,

Quote:

I've imagined that in the next moment I have completely changed, so to has the bucket, and every molecule of water

That would be kind of magic. Of course, if you believe magic exists and works, our conversation might be seriously affected.

1 Reply

@Frank Apisa,

What happens if it is not a lie but a mistaken belief... what would your response be? The person heard a voice and believed it was God and now believes that God exists. Is that a guess or a mistaken belief?

1 Reply

@Olivier5,

Olivier5 wrote:

Quote:
I've imagined that in the next moment I have completely changed, so to has the bucket, and every molecule of water

That would be kind of magic. Of course, if you believe magic exists and works, our conversation might be seriously affected.

What's magic about everything not being permanent... everything is impermanent. If it was permanent from one moment to the next then nothing would ever change. When things change which they contually do they are not the same as they were before... 'the' car is gone and replaced by another car 'but' the concept and label can still be applied to it.... giving the illusion that the same car exists over time.

1 Reply

How is this definition of "belief"?

Related Topics

Quick Links

My Account

able2know