How is this definition of "belief"?

@Fil Albuquerque,

The real is the real. Sure. But the assertion you made earlier is still a belief, not fact. Nothing you have said changes that.

Quote:

...if reality was created by minds who created the mind/s as minds are themselves the real ? No one ? Then minds themselves couldn't be real as no mind consciousness or whatever like it could create them...if minds were created by other things which not minds, then minds are not the creator of reality...

I don't know. But I know that whatever you decide to answer those questions with, it will be guesses or beliefs. We have no facts about this.

1 Reply

@Cyracuz,

I agree, but my guess is itself a fact, a part of reality that may or may not refer to the whole of factual reality...

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@Frank Apisa,

Frank Apisa wrote:

igm wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:

In a religious discussion (in discussions about the true nature of REALITY)...using the word "belief" is a way to disguise the fact that a blind guess is being made!

How do you know that Frank? You say you 'know ' that belief in such a discussion 'is' a blind guess. Again, how do you know that?

Almost every comment about the true nature of REALITY...with the exception that what IS, IS...is a guess.

Unless it is called a guess...it is being disguised.

I understand your position on that because as you say you've explained this many times in the past. I'm asking how you can be 'certain' of this?

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@Olivier5,

Olivier5 wrote:

Quote:
Just curious how you'd explain your belief that a car (going back to our earlier discussion) is 'more' than the sum of its parts? I take it that you mean it is 'literally true' that a car is more than the sum of its parts? The reason I'm asking is that I'd say it literally isn't true that a car is more than the sum of its parts.

Would you then be ready to pay the same price for an assembled car and for a non-assembled pile of spare parts?

That's not an answer that's a question. Answer my question and I'll answer yours.

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@Fil Albuquerque,

I agree, if you are asserting that you just made a guess. But an assertion cannot be a guess and a fact. If you know you can't guess.

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@Cyracuz,

Cyracuz wrote:

I agree, if you are asserting that you just made a guess. But an assertion cannot be a guess and a fact. If you know you can't guess.

Isn't guessing a fact ? When I guess I am really guessing.
I would rather opt to say that "facts" have extension, an operative size beyond which they become useless or meaningless...they still are facts.

For instance I suppose in a wolfs mind there is no conception of hunting but a clear conception of getting lunch...from our point of view the wolfs are both hunting and getting lunch...facts which are true fit other more complex factual frames....I suppose at a given point as you increase the resolution range of logic and complexity a given fact becomes operationally meaningless from a superior perspective but still can be considered a fact in terms of effective causation on a local level...

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@igm,

Quote:

That's not an answer that's a question. Answer my question and I'll answer yours.

Really? :-)

The structure and function, i.e. the way the parts are assembled and function together, is what is much more than the sum of he parts. It takes a lot of real work to assemble the car, and that's what you pay for in a car, which you don't pay if you buy a pile of parts. But then, A pile of parts cannot be driven to the mall.

Answer my question now. :-)

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@Olivier5,

Olivier5 wrote:

Quote:
That's not an answer that's a question. Answer my question and I'll answer yours.

Really? :-)

The structure and function, i.e. the way the parts are assembled and function together, is what is much more than the sum of he parts. It takes a lot of real work to assemble the car, and that's what you pay for in a car, which you don't pay if you buy a pile of parts. But then, A pile of parts cannot be driven to the mall.

Answer my question now. :-)

Form and function are a part of everything aren't they ? So how come the whole is bigger then the sum of its parts if not metaphorically...

This misunderstanding emerges from the idea that abstract objects are not real...but the fact remains that the assembly of the parts of the car is itself a part of what being a car is...parts are not cars for a reason.

Similarly a car at rest is not the same as a working moving car as while moving a car is being more and doing more.

1 Reply

@Fil Albuquerque,

The structure is not "a part" of the car, at least not in the same way as the other parts. You can have a tire, or a strearing wheel independently of the full car. But you can't have the structure without the pieces. That's because the structure is about HOW THE PHYSICAL PARTS ARE FIT TOGETHER. It's relational.

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@Fil Albuquerque,

I mean that if you make an assertion that can be classified as a guess, that assertion cannot also be classified as a fact.

You can say that it is a fact that you made the assertion, but that has no relevance in deciding whether the assertion itself is a fact or a belief.

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@Cyracuz,

...not only it is a fact that I made the assertion but it is a fact that the assertion is an assertion...whatever it asserts may or may not report another fact even if itself is a reporting fact...
yeah I know what you meant Cyr !

1 Reply

@Fil Albuquerque,

I do not know what you are getting at...

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@Cyracuz,

I'm getting at that an assertion can be both a fact and a guess although it may not refer to anything other then a guess...

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@Olivier5,

Never said nothing about being in the same way and yes said it was relational from the start I guess that's what a function implies isn't it ? A car is a sum of functions not just a collection of parts...(at least the ones you re referring to since functions are a part of the assembled car also)

1 Reply

@Fil Albuquerque,

Erm... Are you saying that the same assertion can simultaneously be a guess and a fact?

2 Replies

@igm,

igm wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:

igm wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:

In a religious discussion (in discussions about the true nature of REALITY)...using the word "belief" is a way to disguise the fact that a blind guess is being made!

How do you know that Frank? You say you 'know ' that belief in such a discussion 'is' a blind guess. Again, how do you know that?

Almost every comment about the true nature of REALITY...with the exception that what IS, IS...is a guess.

Unless it is called a guess...it is being disguised.

I understand your position on that because as you say you've explained this many times in the past. I'm asking how you can be 'certain' of this?

Are you asking how I can be certain of something that is certain?

Tell me what you think is uncertain about what I have said...and we can discuss that.

1 Reply

@Fil Albuquerque,

Fil Albuquerque wrote:

...let me ask you Frank what is of more value to you give a step back and admit you have beliefs saving your honesty, or win the argument at all costs ?
What does your "genotype program", your gut feeling, pushes you to choose ?
So far you seam to reason "survival" before "honour"...but as reality is tricky perhaps your true survival resides in giving a step back and save your honour...

How could lying...possibly have a positive impact on my honesty?

I have no beliefs. To say I do...would be lying.

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@Cyracuz,

Cyracuz wrote:

Erm... Are you saying that the same assertion can simultaneously be a guess and a fact?

Ummm...I was going to agree with you on this...and disagree with Fil...but I can conceive of an assertion that can be a guess...and a fact at the same time.

The assertion is a guess...but can accidentally be a fact at the same time.

If the assertion is "it is either "a" or "not a"...and the guess is "a"...if "a" actually is...then "a" is a fact, even though the assertion was a guess.

Seems to me that makes the assertion both a guess...and (accidentally) a fact.

Possibly I am wrong on this. Am I?

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@Cyracuz,

Cyracuz wrote:

Erm... Are you saying that the same assertion can simultaneously be a guess and a fact?

Yes ! Its a fact that it is guesswork upon something if it truly is guesswork ! A part in reality !

How can I put it any better ? Rolling Eyes

...an assertion is a true assertion it asserts something.

1 Reply

@Fil Albuquerque,

Anyway, that's what they mean by the phrase: the whole is more than the sum of its parts.

1 Reply

How is this definition of "belief"?

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