5
   

How is this definition of "belief"?

 
 
FBM
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 Jun, 2013 06:08 pm
@Setanta,
Most of that sounds perfectly reasonable to me. I didn't mean to say that skeptics can't believe anything, only wondering why the ones who believe that not having beliefs is impossible do so. If it's an assumption, why not question it? It seems to me that "lower" animals live without beliefs and probably early hominids did, too. What, specifically, makes it impossible for a human to live according to a practical, working hypothesis or informed guesses, rather than beliefs? I don't see how a tentative frame of reference equates with belief. The Pyrrhonists are said to have done so, and if the historians are right, their school lasted a few centuries. It seems to me that people very much enjoy their beliefs, but it seems unfounded to me to claim that one can't live without them.
Setanta
 
  2  
Reply Wed 5 Jun, 2013 06:18 pm
@FBM,
Based on the definition of guess, the term "informed guess" is an oxymoron. A guess is a guess precisely because one lacks evidence.

Here's the first hit on a google search for belief: 1. An acceptance that a statement is true or that something exists. 2. Something one accepts as true or real; a firmly held opinion or conviction. It seems to me that all we have going on here is a word game which attempts to avoid using the word belief, which is a perfectly acceptable term for what we do in a world of uncertainty. As i've said twice now, Frank doesn't like the word belief because he got hammered over his selective agnosticism which leads him to claim he is agnostic about the existence of a god, but not about any other supernatural beings. It's a polemical position on his part, and he has trashed a perfectly good thread which was attempting to come up with a reasonable definition of belief just so he could attempt to insist upon his guess/"i don't do belief" bullshit. He came up with that because he couldn't handle the criticism of his position in debate.
FBM
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 Jun, 2013 06:25 pm
@Setanta,
I'm afraid I haven't had the time to follow Frank's arguments. I'm pretty sure I'm coming from a totally different angle. I ran across Pyrrhonism a few years ago and have been experimenting with it. Yes, I agree a lot depends on one's definition of belief. What I mean by it, as per what I've read about Pyrrhonism, is a truth claim about something non-evident, particularly metaphysical claims. Reacting to experience seems pretty inevitable, but abstracting truth claims about experience doesn't seem necessary. In that thought system, one suspends judgement about non-evident issues. Thus, to have a working hypothesis or rule of thumb or mental frame of reference isn't a problem, but claiming that any of those things are ultimately true would be. That is, if one admits the possibility that something may not be ultimately true, that's not really a belief in the first place, according to the Pyrrhonist system.
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 Jun, 2013 06:29 pm
@Fil Albuquerque,
Fil Albuquerque wrote:

...back to the topic, the pretence distinction between "blind guesses" and "informed guesses", while useful in simple contexts, is ultimately deceiving as guesses are by definition blind.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  2  
Reply Wed 5 Jun, 2013 06:31 pm
@FBM,
FBM wrote:
What I mean by it, as per what I've read about Pyrrhonism, is a truth claim about something non-evident, particularly metaphysical claims.


That's just about exactly the dictionary definition of a guess--something for which there is no evidence--it certainly doesn't necessarily match a reasonable definition of a belief. I cannot but dissent from your claim that if one admits that one could be wrong, one is not entertaining a belief. When you don't know, or can't know, belief is all you have to operate with. Acknowledging that, ultimately, you don't know to a certainty is just honesty. You still need a basis upon which to act--unless, of course, you're going to sit home all day, and wait for others to provide you the wherewithal to survive--in which case you would do well not to be paranoid.
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 Jun, 2013 06:37 pm
@Setanta,
Setanta wrote:

Based on the definition of guess, the term "informed guess" is an oxymoron. A guess is a guess precisely because one lacks evidence.

Here's the first hit on a google search for belief: 1. An acceptance that a statement is true or that something exists. 2. Something one accepts as true or real; a firmly held opinion or conviction. It seems to me that all we have going on here is a word game which attempts to avoid using the word belief, which is a perfectly acceptable term for what we do in a world of uncertainty. As i've said twice now, Frank doesn't like the word belief because he got hammered over his selective agnosticism which leads him to claim he is agnostic about the existence of a god, but not about any other supernatural beings. It's a polemical position on his part, and he has trashed a perfectly good thread which was attempting to come up with a reasonable definition of belief just so he could attempt to insist upon his guess/"i don't do belief" bullshit. He came up with that because he couldn't handle the criticism of his position in debate.


Nonsense.

You have claimed on several occasions that you have hammered me...or that others have. It is self-serving nonsense.

And I have not trashed this thread. It has been an interesting one...and probably will continue to be after you leave.

I do not do believing...and that is part of the discussion.

Go sulk, Setanta...that is what you do best.



Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 Jun, 2013 06:41 pm
@Frank Apisa,
...no you are not playing an honest game Frank...please link me to a quote where you think you have provided a sufficient definition of believing according to your lexicon so that we can objectively evaluate the self consistency of your claims...
FBM
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 Jun, 2013 06:58 pm
@Setanta,
Setanta wrote:

FBM wrote:
What I mean by it, as per what I've read about Pyrrhonism, is a truth claim about something non-evident, particularly metaphysical claims.


That's just about exactly the dictionary definition of a guess--something for which there is no evidence--it certainly doesn't necessarily match a reasonable definition of a belief. I cannot but dissent from your claim that if one admits that one could be wrong, one is not entertaining a belief. When you don't know, or can't know, belief is all you have to operate with. Acknowledging that, ultimately, you don't know to a certainty is just honesty. You still need a basis upon which to act--unless, of course, you're going to sit home all day, and wait for others to provide you the wherewithal to survive--in which case you would do well not to be paranoid.


OK, I see your stance a bit better now. We don't quite see eye-to-eye about what constitutes a belief, though. Earlier in the thread I distinguished between a blind guess and an informed guess. In the former you have no information at all, but in the latter you have some information, albeit incomplete. Scientists, for example, work on informed guesses most of the time, I hear, and loathe making blind guesses. The Pyrrhonists, according to reports, did have a basis upon which to act: direct experience and necessary inference based on that experience. Much the way careful science is done. If someone plants corn in the late fall and it never produces anything before the first freeze, he's not likely to do that again. If he plants it in early spring and gets better results, if he's smart he'll only plant in the spring from now on. As for necessary inference, examples given by Sextus Empiricus is that if you see a scar, you can infer that there was an earlier wound, and if you see smoke, there's likely to be a fire. The Pyrrhonists are said to have lived fairly normal lives, for the most part, while at the same time eschewing any beliefs. Direct experience doesn't require belief; it's just there. Necessary inference comes from experience, and doesn't require belief (in the sense that the Pyrrhonists defined it).

I realize that in Philosophy, words are very carefully and strictly defined so that ambiguities are avoided as much as possible. Many of the definitions used in Philosophy don't match the vernacular use of the same words. "Argument," for example. So, to me, it's not surprising in the least that we would disagree about beliefs, because we're using different definitions. Which brings us back to the OP. If a mental frame of reference is held to be tentative, leaving open the possibility of error, then that doesn't match the philosophical definition of belief. Thus, it may be useful in other contexts, but it's not going to work in Philosophy, I think. Since I'm working with the philosophical definition, many of my statements about it are intended to mean something other than the way it would be interpreted by someone using the vernacular definition. There's no reason, as far as I know, to claim that either definition is superior. They're just somewhat different.
0 Replies
 
FBM
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 Jun, 2013 07:00 pm
Quote:
guess (gs)
v. guessed, guess·ing, guess·es
v.tr.
1.
a. To predict (a result or an event) without sufficient information.
b. To assume, presume, or assert (a fact) without sufficient information.
2. To form a correct estimate or conjecture of: guessed the answer.
3. To suppose; think: I guess he was wrong.
v.intr.
1. To make an estimate or conjecture: We could only guess at her motives.
2. To estimate or conjecture correctly.
n.
1. An act or instance of guessing.
2. A conjecture arrived at by guessing.


"without sufficient information" is unequal to "no information," I think. The latter seems to be a subset of the former.
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 Jun, 2013 07:09 pm
From the Stanford Encyclopaedia of Philosophy:

Quote:
Belief
First published Mon Aug 14, 2006; substantive revision Sun Nov 21, 2010

Contemporary analytic philosophers of mind generally use the term “belief” to refer to the attitude we have, roughly, whenever we take something to be the case or regard it as true. To believe something, in this sense, needn't involve actively reflecting on it: Of the vast number of things ordinary adults believe, only a few can be at the fore of the mind at any single time. Nor does the term “belief”, in standard philosophical usage, imply any uncertainty or any extended reflection about the matter in question (as it sometimes does in ordinary English usage). Many of the things we believe, in the relevant sense, are quite mundane: that we have heads, that it's the 21st century, that a coffee mug is on the desk. Forming beliefs is thus one of the most basic and important features of the mind, and the concept of belief plays a crucial role in both philosophy of mind and epistemology. The “mind-body problem”, for example, so central to philosophy of mind, is in part the question of whether and how a purely physical organism can have beliefs. Much of epistemology revolves around questions about when and how our beliefs are justified or qualify as knowledge.

Most contemporary philosophers characterize belief as a “propositional attitude”. Propositions are generally taken to be whatever it is that sentences express (see the entry on propositions). For example, if two sentences mean the same thing (e.g., “snow is white” in English, “Schnee ist weiss” in German), they express the same proposition, and if two sentences differ in meaning, they express different propositions. (Here we are setting aside some complications about that might arise in connection with indexicals; see the entry on indexicals.) A propositional attitude, then, is the mental state of having some attitude, stance, take, or opinion about a proposition or about the potential state of affairs in which that proposition is true—a mental state of the sort canonically expressible in the form “S A that P”, where S picks out the individual possessing the mental state, A picks out the attitude, and P is a sentence expressing a proposition. For example: Ahmed [the subject] hopes [the attitude] that Alpha Centauri hosts intelligent life [the proposition], or Yifeng [the subject] doubts [the attitude] that New York City will exist in four hundred years. What one person doubts or hopes, another might fear, or believe, or desire, or intend—different attitudes, all toward the same proposition. Contemporary discussions of belief are often embedded in more general discussions of the propositional attitudes; and treatments of the propositional attitudes often take belief as the first and foremost example.
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 Jun, 2013 07:10 pm
@Fil Albuquerque,
Fil Albuquerque wrote:

...no you are not playing an honest game Frank...please link me to a quote where you think you have provided a sufficient definition of believing according to your lexicon so that we can objectively evaluate the self consistency of your claims...


Look it up.

Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 Jun, 2013 07:13 pm
@Frank Apisa,
You wish...its not up to me to back up what you claim to have stated...if you want to prove it very well if you wont no worries its not that important...
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 Jun, 2013 07:14 pm
@Fil Albuquerque,
Fil Albuquerque wrote:

You wish...its not up to me to back up what you claim to have stated...if you want to prove it very well if you wont no worries its not that important...


If you want to find it...look it up. If you don't...don't.
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 Jun, 2013 07:17 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Look Frank don't make an inversion on the onus of proof here...the claim is yours if you can't back it why should I care ? Do you think I'm worried on whether you have the heart to back what you say ? Why should I if you are making my case ?... Laughing
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 Jun, 2013 07:20 pm
@Fil Albuquerque,
Fil Albuquerque wrote:

Look Frank don't make an inversion on the onus of proof here...the claim is yours if you can't back it why should I care ? Do you think I'm worried on whether you have the heart to back what you say ? Why should I if you are making my case ?... Laughing


If you want it...go look it up. If it is not important...just drop it. If you want me to furnish an exact location for where I have explained it dozens of times...you have got a very, very long wait.
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 Jun, 2013 07:30 pm
@Frank Apisa,
You got to have a nerve addressing a topic like that in a Philosophy forum, really...how's that for honesty ? How does this kind of attitude leaves your credibility, eh ? If you have provided a definition dozens of times it shouldn't be very hard to bring it up...why should I go search for something which I believe you haven't done, are you expecting me to prove a negative by going to all your posts ? I rather have you prove you have said anything about your concept of belief other that you don't do it and have guesses.
FBM
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 Jun, 2013 07:32 pm
Quote:
Bertrand Russell (1926)

Theory of Knowledge
for The Encyclopaedia Britannica)

THEORY OF KNOWLEDGE is a product of doubt. When we have asked ourselves seriously whether we really know anything at all, we are naturally led into an examination of knowing, in the hope of being able to distinguish trustworthy beliefs from such as are untrustworthy. Thus Kant, the founder of modern theory of knowledge, represents a natural reaction against Hume's scepticism. Few philosophers nowadays would assign to this subject quite such a fundamental importance as it had in Kant's "critical" system; nevertheless it remains an essential part of philosophy. It is perhaps unwise to begin with a definition of the subject, since, as elsewhere in philosophical discussions, definitions are controversial, and will necessarily differ for different schools; but we may at least say that the subject is concerned with the general conditions of knowledge, in so far as they throw light upon truth and falsehood.

It will be convenient to divide our discussion into three stages, concerning respectively (1) the definition of knowledge, (2) data, (3) methods of inference. It should be said, however, that in distinguishing between data and inferences we are already taking sides on a debatable question, since some philosophers hold that this distinction is illusory, all knowledge being (according to them) partly immediate and partly derivative.

I. THE DEFINITION OF KNOWLEDGE

The question how knowledge should be defined is perhaps the most important and difficult of the three with which we shall deal. This may seem surprising: at first sight it might be thought that knowledge might be defined as belief which is in agreement with the facts. The trouble is that no one knows what a belief is, no one knows what a fact is, and no one knows what sort of agreement between them would make a belief true. Let us begin with belief.

Belief.

Traditionally, a "belief" is a state of mind of a certain sort. But the behaviourists deny that there are states of mind, or at least that they can be known; they therefore avoid the word "belief", and, if they used it, would mean by it a characteristic of bodily behaviour. There are cases in which this usage would be quite in accordance with common sense. Suppose you set out to visit a friend whom you have often visited before, but on arriving at your destination you find that he has moved, you would say "I thought he was still living at his old house." Yet it is highly probable that you did not think about it at all, but merely pursued the usual route from habit. A "thought" or "belief" may, therefore, in the view of common sense, be shown by behaviour, without any corresponding "mental" occurrence. And even if you use a form of words such as is supposed to express belief, you are still engaged in bodily behaviour, provided you pronounce the words out loud or to yourself. Shall we say, in such cases, that you have a belief? Or is something further required?

It must be admitted that behaviour is practically the same whether you have an explicit belief or not. People who are out of doors when a shower of rain comes on put up their umbrellas, if they have them; some say to themselves "it has begun to rain", others act without explicit thought, but the result is exactly the same in both cases. In very hot weather, both human beings and animals go out of the sun into the shade, if they can; human beings may have an explicit "belief " that the shade is pleasanter, but animals equally seek the shade. It would seem, therefore, that belief, if it is not a mere characteristic of behaviour, is causally unimportant. And the distinction of truth and error exists where there is behaviour without explicit belief, just as much as where explicit belief is present; this is shown by the illustration of going to where your friend used to live. Therefore, if theory of knowledge is to be concerned with distinguishing truth from error, we shall have to include the cases in which there is no explicit belief, and say that a belief may be merely implicit in behaviour. When old Mother Hubbard went to the cupboard, she "believed" that there was a bone there, even if she had no state of mind which could be called cognitive in the sense of introspective psychology.

...


http://www.marxists.org/reference/subject/philosophy/works/en/russell1.htm
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 Jun, 2013 07:33 pm
@Fil Albuquerque,
Fil Albuquerque wrote:

You got to have a nerve addressing a topic like that in a Philosophy forum, really...how's that for honesty ? How does this kind of attitude leaves your credibility, eh ? If you have provided a definition dozens of times it shouldn't be very hard to bring it up...why should I go search for something which I believe you haven't done, are you expecting me to prove a negative by going to all your posts ? I rather have you prove you have said anything about your concept of belief other that you don't do it and have guesses.


If you are worried about my credibility, Fil...go worry about something else. My credibility is just fine.
0 Replies
 
FBM
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 Jun, 2013 07:37 pm
Quote:
Belief
Pascal Engel
Introduction

The problem of the nature of belief lies at the crossing of a number of fields of philosophical inquiry: philosophy of mind, epistemology, philosophy of language, ethics, philosophy of religion and philosophy of social science. For this reason the notion is sometimes ambiguous and used in different ways. Most philosophical treatments deal with one or the other aspect of the notion, but contemporary treatments have attempted a most systematic outlook. The main current debates concern whether belief is a passive state of mind, to be understood mostly in causal terms or an active state of mind, involving a kind of commitment whether beliefs are essentially implicit episodes or essentially conscious ones, the relationship between beliefs and other doxastic attitudes, such as judgment or acceptance, the relationship between belief and knowledge, and whether there are degrees of beliefs.

General Overviews

Because of the diversity of domains in which the notion of belief features and the variety of approaches, there is no overall treatment, but there are some good overviews for each specific domain. Price 1969 offers a good historical account mostly within the British empiricist tradition. Fodor 1981 and Dennett 1982 present classical but controversial views in the philosophy of mind. Stalnaker 1984 is perhaps the best introduction to the semantical, psychological and epistemological issues. Vahid 2008 gives a good overview of the epistemological issues. Velleman 2000 may be the best entrance point to the various dimensions of the debate. Engel 1995 and Schwitzgebel 2006 give general presentations.


http://www.oxfordbibliographies.com/view/document/obo-9780195396577/obo-9780195396577-0012.xml?rskey=2txHKg&result=15&q=

Therefore, when I specify the Pyrrhonist definition of 'belief,' it will not necessarily coincide with every philosopher's definition.
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 Jun, 2013 07:40 pm
@FBM,
Alright, this is right on topic, and i think this kind of discussion was what Cyracuz intended.
 

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