How is this definition of "belief"?

@Setanta,

I hope so. I'm really tired of all the quibbling and animosity. I'd really rather discuss the OP. Smile

@FBM,

I don't have problem with this, but i will point out once again that people commonly believe things based on their education and experience when certainty is not possible, and they function pretty well with those beliefs--and their beliefs can therefore be said to be based on sufficient information. This is why i say that guess is not a synonym of belief. I will read your several posts on the philosophical definitions of belief, but it is important to keep in mind that philosophers have agendas just like everyone else, and that epistemology has been hag-ridden by semiotics for more than a century. It's late in my day, so i won't be reading all of your posts until tomorrow.

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An automation based on previous experiences needs not to explicitly expose a mental state of belief as such state is reported from previous conscious experiences on which the belief was explicitly formed, memory is all is required. The case becomes obvious when we get to pay attention on the symbolic nature of language which does require superior brain activity and cognitive action, as most of our more mundane beliefs do require cognitive decoding of conceptual experiences although they do not imped instinctive reflexive behaviour...we can dodge a car in a second but we won't know what a car is without a conceptual linguistic frame...the same is true in the opposite direction, that is, there are automated reflex assumptions (pattern recognition) that a posteriori may lead to the formation of beliefs but that not are themselves explicit states of conscious belief...from wherever we proceed, either from beliefs to automations or from automate instinctive responses to the formation of explicit believes, believing does indeed represent an essential part of what means to be human.

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@FBM,

FBM wrote:

I hope so. I'm really tired of all the quibbling and animosity. I'd really rather discuss the OP.

In my first two comments (on page 2 of this thread) I gave my opinion:

In a religious discussion (in discussions about the true nature of REALITY)...a "belief" is a blind guess.

I still think it is...and nothing said in this thread has persuaded me to change that opinion.

http://able2know.org/topic/214762-2#post-5334291

http://able2know.org/topic/214762-2#post-5334293

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@Frank Apisa,

Thank you for the effort Frank...

Your definition of belief seams more an analysis on what believing implies then a explicit statement on what believing means...anyway you are entitled to have your own opinion on the matter.
...proceeding from your own definition I find it hard to believe you don't have any blind guessing at work regarding the nature of reality of for that matter on any other subject...
Haven't you ever played a guess game ?

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@Setanta,

Setanta wrote:

I don't have problem with this, but i will point out once again that people commonly believe things based on their education and experience when certainty is not possible, and they function pretty well with those beliefs--and their beliefs can therefore be said to be based on sufficient information. This is why i say that guess is not a synonym of belief. I will read your several posts on the philosophical definitions of belief, but it is important to keep in mind that philosophers have agendas just like everyone else, and that epistemology has been hag-ridden by semiotics for more than a century. It's late in my day, so i won't be reading all of your posts until tomorrow.

Yep. Gotcha. I should also clarify that I'm not saying it's necessarily wrong or bad to have beliefs, nor am I stumping for everyone to be a Pyrrhonist. It's just something that's interesting to me and I'm giving it a try. And since it's relevant to the OP, I got interested in this thread. I agree about philosophers having agendas just like everyone else, too.

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@Frank Apisa,

If you get right down to the phenomenology of experience, we don't seem to have any way to get behind our experiences to collect any evidence as to what's back there causing those experiences, if there's anything at all. I can't remember the exact phrase at the moment, but something like the 'phenomenological veil' or 'epistemological veil' or something like that. In that sense, I could agree that any claim about the ultimate nature of reality is a blind guess, yes. I think maybe that question is what fuels the interest in particle physics and cosmology. I'm not sure that those scientists are actually going to get ultimate answers that way, though.

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Many non-trivial beliefs arise due to the emotions of hope and fear. Many similar words do not. Non-trivial beliefs are more about emotions than many similar alternatives to the word belief.

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One question that the material I posted makes me ponder is the question of whether or not believing must be a conscious cognitive act in order to be considered as such. I don't have an answer (yet?), so I'd be interested in input, if anyone else thinks it's a relevant question.

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@Fil Albuquerque,

Fil Albuquerque wrote:

Thank you for the effort Frank...

Your definition of belief seams more an analysis on what believing implies then a explicit statement on what believing means...anyway you are entitled to have your own opinion on the matter.
...proceeding from your own definition I find it hard to believe you don't have any blind guessing at work regarding the nature of reality of for that matter on any other subject...
Haven't you ever played a guess game ?

Fil...are you just fooling around here...or are you truly not listening to what I am saying??????????????????

YES, I HAVE SOME BLIND GUESSES AT WORK REGARDING THE NATURE OF REALITY. ONE OF MY BLIND GUESSES IS...THAT EVERYONE HAS BLIND GUESSES AT WORK REGARDING THE NATURE OF REALITY.

I CALL THOSE BLIND GUESSES...BLIND GUESSES!

I DO NOT CALL THOSE BLIND GUESSES....BELIEFS.

CALLING BLIND GUESSES "BELIEFS", IN MY OPINION, IS AN ATTEMPT TO DISGUISE THEM...TO PRETEND THEY ARE SOMETHING WORTHY OF RESPECT...RATHER THAN SIMPLY BEING CONSIDERED A BLIND GUSESS.

How many times must I repeat that in order for it to be absorbed?

This has NEVER been a conversations about guesses...it has been a conversation about what we call our guesses!

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@FBM,

Its a technicality on which to my lose opinion on the matter some would probably argue that without language assumptions mean very little and can't carry much weight...but yes as far as I know you can make false assumptions in less then 1 second for instance identifying potential danger without explicitly being able to tell what it was...a sudden move which you can't concretely identify with anything other then it may represent a potential danger comes to mind...

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@Frank Apisa,

Frank Apisa wrote:

In a religious discussion (in discussions about the true nature of REALITY)...a "belief" is a blind guess.

Frank Apisa wrote:

I CALL THOSE BLIND GUESSES...BLIND GUESSES!

I DO NOT CALL THOSE BLIND GUESSES....BELIEFS.

CALLING BLIND GUESSES "BELIEFS", IN MY OPINION, IS AN ATTEMPT TO DISGUISE THEM...TO PRETEND THEY ARE SOMETHING WORTHY OF RESPECT...RATHER THAN SIMPLY BEING CONSIDERED A BLIND GUSESS.

How many times must I repeat that in order for it to be absorbed?

This has NEVER been a conversations about guesses...it has been a conversation about what we call our guesses!

In the first quote you equate beliefs with blind guesses, in the second you make a conceptual distinction when you say is an attempt to disguise them...which in turn means believing according to you is distinct of guessing although it implies guessing, you immediately contradict the provided definition...
So quite fairly we may conclude you haven't provided yet an explicit non contradictory account on what believing means to you ! Thank you Frank have a nice day !

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@Fil Albuquerque,

Fil Albuquerque wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:
In a religious discussion (in discussions about the true nature of REALITY)...a "belief" is a blind guess.

Frank Apisa wrote:

I CALL THOSE BLIND GUESSES...BLIND GUESSES!

I DO NOT CALL THOSE BLIND GUESSES....BELIEFS.

CALLING BLIND GUESSES "BELIEFS", IN MY OPINION, IS AN ATTEMPT TO DISGUISE THEM...TO PRETEND THEY ARE SOMETHING WORTHY OF RESPECT...RATHER THAN SIMPLY BEING CONSIDERED A BLIND GUSESS.

How many times must I repeat that in order for it to be absorbed?

This has NEVER been a conversations about guesses...it has been a conversation about what we call our guesses!

In the first quote you equate beliefs with blind guesses, in the second you make a conceptual distinction when you say is an attempt to disguise them...which in turn means believing according to you is distinct of guessing although it implies guessing, you immediately contradict the provided definition...
So quite fairly we may conclude you haven't provided yet an explicit non contradictory account on what believing means to you ! Thank you Frank have a nice day !

I'm sorry, Fil...but you simply do not get it...and I SUSPECT it is because you do not want to get it.

If you want to see a contradiction there...see it and enjoy it.

There is none, but I am tired of explaining my position to you.

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@Frank Apisa,

Excuse me Sir but THERE IS !

When I asked you for a definition under your scope you are not suppose to say one thing and then another.

For instance if you say beliefs and blind guesses are the same the permutation of words in the usage is not problematic...you should know that !!!

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@Fil Albuquerque,

I do indeed think that I know what you mean, but that was not the point being made...the point was that with you floating around everywhere when a tight definition of your concepts seams needed brings noise into a fair debate...How am I suppose to have an honest shot to criticize your position if your definition goes back n forward ?
If you think I am doing this to win an argument or being picky you are WRONG ! I simply put want an HONEST SHOT at it, instead of being undermined !

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@Fil Albuquerque,

Fil Albuquerque wrote:

Excuse me Sir but THERE IS !

NO, FIL...THERE IS NOT. YOU ARE SIMPLY trying to make it seem that way.

Quote:

When I asked you for a definition under your scope you are not suppose to say one thing and then another.

For instance if you say beliefs and blind guesses are the same the permutation of words in the usage is not problematic...you should know that !!!

BLIND GUESSES AND BELIEFS ARE NOT THE SAME THING. The word "belief" IS USED BY SOME PEOPLE TO DISGUISE the fact that they are actually talking about a blind guess.

How many times must I repeat that in order for it to penetrate?

When someone says "I believe a GOD exists..."...that person is making a blind guess...and is disguising the fact that he/she is making a blind guess by using the word "believe."

Can you finally grasp that concept?

Can you finally understand I am not saying they are the same thing...that one is a disguise for the other.

If you weren't so intent on trying to make me a hypocrite...you could easily see that the sentence:

In a religious discussion (in discussions about the true nature of REALITY)...a "belief" is a blind guess.

...is:

In a religious discussion (in discussions about the true nature of REALITY)...using the word "belief" is a way to disguise the fact that a blind guess is being made!

Jesus, Fil...I have said that so many times...I just do not want to write the entire thing out every time. But by now you should know that is my position, because I have said that over and over for almost 15 years on this forum and the previous one. And I have said it several times right here in this thread...and addressed it to you.

So stop it.

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@Frank Apisa,

Frank I asked you for a personnel definition of belief or a quote remember ? You provided a quote referring to guesses but then you say they are not the same...

I loosely know what you think about beliefs being blind guesses in disguise, that is not the point !!!

The point is your definition floats back n forward !

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For all that I care statistically there are people who lie when they say I believe there is a God as there are people who really mean it...so when you say the usage of believing must have a dishonest disguising intention for guess work you yourself are guessing against statistical variation...I suppose you do that because of this extreme position resulting from a previous debate you had here on A2K, on which you decided to be stubborn because some around are violent and willing to play any game in the form of defending their own convictions...I can empathise with all those reasons but does that changes the fact that you may have a bias against the term believing because of that situation...no it doesn't !

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@Fil Albuquerque,

Fil Albuquerque wrote:

Frank I asked you for a personnel definition of belief or a quote remember ? You provided a quote referring to guesses but then you say they are not the same...

I loosely know what you think about beliefs being blind guesses in disguise, that is not the point !!!

The point is your definition floats back n forward !

You are intent on thinking that...so be happy with it.

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@Fil Albuquerque,

If I know you personally I gladdy would go play golf with you, have some chats, and what not because I think you are a nice person...none of it changes the situation here...I must be tight independently of my good opinion on you so that this debate can go anywhere in the form of me having an honest shot to show you otherwise...you in turn don't have the smallest intention of letting that happen no matter what...

1 Reply

How is this definition of "belief"?

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