5
   

How is this definition of "belief"?

 
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 Jun, 2013 03:12 pm
@Cyracuz,
Cyracuz wrote:

So you are saying it's a fact? :

Quote:
there is a true state of affairs no matter what we can tell about it


I would call it a belief. Frank would likely call it a guess.

A similar assertion is "the food in my fridge doesn't exist when it is not being observed". We can't know that, because we can't observe "food not being observed", obviously.

It is possible that there is no state of affairs at all without something to tell about it. You are probably thinking that there must necessarily be a state of affairs, but no matter how reasonable this seems, it is unknowable.



Ummm...I would like to comment on this, Cyracuz.

There is a REALITY. There simply has to be. Whatever it is...IS. And it IS...whether we can understand it or describe it.

Whatever IS...IS. That is the REALITY!

I do not consider that to be a belief or a guess or an estimate. It is a tautology.
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 Jun, 2013 03:14 pm
@Cyracuz,
Quote:
It is possible that there is no state of affairs at all without something to tell about it. You are probably thinking that there must necessarily be a state of affairs, but no matter how reasonable this seems, it is unknowable.


Then THAT would be the REALITY. If there is :"no state of affairs at all without something to tell about it"...then THAT IS the REALITY. THAT IS...what IS.
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 Jun, 2013 03:16 pm
@Cyracuz,
I suppose your sentence didn't exist until I observed it then...maybe I am talking to myself and you don't exist because I can't observe you right now...are you serious Cyr ? Do you really believe that ?
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 Jun, 2013 03:20 pm
@Fil Albuquerque,
Fil Albuquerque wrote:

I suppose your sentence didn't exist until I observed it then...maybe I am talking to myself and you don't exist because I can't observe you right now...are you serious Cyr ? Do you really believe that ?


Fil

Are you absolutely certain (in other words, can you PROVE) that everything you consider to be your universe and self...complete with all the "memories" you have and all the people you know...

...did not come into existence in its entirety just a second ago?

If you can't (and it is almost certain that you can't)...then perhaps nothing, including that sentence, did not exist until that "second ago."
Fil Albuquerque
 
  2  
Reply Wed 5 Jun, 2013 03:21 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Quote:
If I am making a guess...I call my guess a guess rather than a belief.


You can make all the statements you want, my problem is not with the statement but with it lacking justification between the objects it implicitly compares...of course you are not obliged to provide justification, you just have to say I don't want justify myself on why I rather use guessing then believing...

...in my circle of reference when people do choices between any number of things they explain one by one the reasons why they take A rather then B...as opinions are subjective it starts by clarifying what any of the compared terms implied mean in the perspective of whom is choosing them...
Cyracuz
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 Jun, 2013 03:22 pm
@Fil Albuquerque,
Of course I don't. I am merely making the point that you cannot know that there is a "state of affairs" outside of perception. No matter how obvious it might seem to you that there is, you cannot know it.
0 Replies
 
Cyracuz
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 Jun, 2013 03:27 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Quote:
Then THAT would be the REALITY. If there is :"no state of affairs at all without something to tell about it"...then THAT IS the REALITY. THAT IS...what IS.


I get what you're saying. "There is a state of affairs." I have no problem with that. Reality IS, as you put it.
"There is a state of affairs independent of perception." This is simply unknowable.
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 Jun, 2013 03:31 pm
@Frank Apisa,
..if reality was created by minds who created the mind/s as minds are themselves the real ? No one ? Then minds themselves couldn't be real as no mind consciousness or whatever like it could create them...if minds or created by other thing then minds then minds are not the creator of reality...

...yes I have no guarantee my memories have any more then 1 second but my point was about I observing them and not on how long was since I last observed them...
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 Jun, 2013 03:32 pm
@Fil Albuquerque,
Fil Albuquerque wrote:

Quote:
If I am making a guess...I call my guess a guess rather than a belief.


You can make all the statements you want, my problem is not with the statement but with it lacking justification between the objects it implicitly compares...of course you are not obliged to provide justification, you just have to say I don't want justify myself on why I rather use guessing then believing...

...in my circle of reference when people do choices between any number of things they explain one by one the reasons why they take A rather then B...as opinions are subjective it starts by clarifying what any of the compared terms implied mean in the perspective of whom is choosing them...


Once again, the ESL is causing problems.

I most assuredly have indicated why I feel as I do...and why I think it important. Not sure why you think I haven't...if you think I haven't. I cannot tell if you do or do not from your comments, because they do not make complete sense to me. I am just guessing that what you were saying was that I have NOT explained my position.

I HAVE.
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 Jun, 2013 03:34 pm
@Cyracuz,
Cyracuz wrote:

Quote:
Then THAT would be the REALITY. If there is :"no state of affairs at all without something to tell about it"...then THAT IS the REALITY. THAT IS...what IS.


I get what you're saying. "There is a state of affairs." I have no problem with that. Reality IS, as you put it.
"There is a state of affairs independent of perception." This is simply unknowable.


That seems to be unknowable. Are you suggesting that I have asserted that there is a state of affairs independent of perception? If I did...I WAS ABSOLUTELY WRONG. I would have to see the comment in context to be sure...but I cannot conceive of me stating it that way.
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 Jun, 2013 03:35 pm
@Cyracuz,
Cyracuz wrote:

Quote:
Then THAT would be the REALITY. If there is :"no state of affairs at all without something to tell about it"...then THAT IS the REALITY. THAT IS...what IS.


I get what you're saying. "There is a state of affairs." I have no problem with that. Reality IS, as you put it.
"There is a state of affairs independent of perception." This is simply unknowable.


This was my sentence Cyr:

Quote:
There is a true state of affairs no matter what we can tell about it.
(by the way meaning that we may well not be able to tell anything about it just as we may...its unknowable)
Fil Albuquerque
 
  2  
Reply Wed 5 Jun, 2013 03:37 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Frank WHAT DOES "BELIEVING" MEANS TO YOU if anything at all ?
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 Jun, 2013 03:50 pm
(Posting again because is worth thinking about it)

On Mind reality:
...if reality was created by minds who created the mind/s as minds are themselves the real ? No one ? Then minds themselves couldn't be real as no mind consciousness or whatever like it could create them...if minds were created by other thing then minds then minds are not the creator of reality...
0 Replies
 
Fil Albuquerque
 
  2  
Reply Wed 5 Jun, 2013 03:54 pm
@Fil Albuquerque,
Frank are you going to explain what Believing means to you or not ? I can accept that you rather not if you clearly state it !
igm
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 Jun, 2013 04:27 pm
@Fil Albuquerque,
Fil Albuquerque wrote:

Frank are you going to explain what Believing means to you or not ? I can accept that you rather not if you clearly state it !

Yes, if Frank, 'doesn't do believing' then he must know exactly what believing means to him and then because he is 'so' clear about it, he chooses not to believe but to guess or abstain etc... so Frank should be the best person to ask for a definition of what belief means to him.
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 Jun, 2013 04:51 pm
@Fil Albuquerque,
Fil Albuquerque wrote:

Frank WHAT DOES "BELIEVING" MEANS TO YOU if anything at all ?


For the five hundred and sixty seventh time....

..."believing" (on matters of the true nature of REALITY) is a way of disguising a guess.
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 Jun, 2013 04:51 pm
@Fil Albuquerque,
Fil Albuquerque wrote:

Frank are you going to explain what Believing means to you or not ? I can accept that you rather not if you clearly state it !


I already have.
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 Jun, 2013 04:52 pm
@igm,
igm wrote:

Fil Albuquerque wrote:

Frank are you going to explain what Believing means to you or not ? I can accept that you rather not if you clearly state it !

Yes, if Frank, 'doesn't do believing' then he must know exactly what believing means to him and then because he is 'so' clear about it, he chooses not to believe but to guess or abstain etc... so Frank should be the best person to ask for a definition of what belief means to him.


How many times do I have to do it???????????

How could all of you possibly have missed all the times I have explained it?
0 Replies
 
FBM
 
  0  
Reply Wed 5 Jun, 2013 05:23 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Frank Apisa wrote:

Once again, the ESL is causing problems.


The nail on the head, looks like. Seems like he's just too proud and full of himself to admit that there's something that he's not superior at.

I don't know about you, Frank, but I find it really surprising that even people who identify as skeptics, agnostics and atheists are so strongly in love with the idea that people can't live without beliefs. That's not a very skeptical position at all, if you think about it.
Setanta
 
  3  
Reply Wed 5 Jun, 2013 06:00 pm
@FBM,
Actually, it's a wise position. We live in a complex, rich environment about which we don't even know a significant fraction. Even the gabbling, philosophical word merchants recognize that people need to construct a frame of reference for their perceptions and activities. When you are necessarily ignorant of the nature of most of what surrounds you, you have to operate on beliefs which express your best estimate based on what you do know and what your experience of the world has been.

You seem to suggest that skeptics don't believe anything, and that's just silly. Skeptics are those who doubt accepted opinions, if the dictionary is to be relied upon. That doesn't mean that skeptics are the only class of human beings who operate only on what they "know." Like everyone else around them, they have to form beliefs which function to make their world comprehensible and manipulable. That they prefer their own opinions to anyone else's is not evidence that they are possessed of some special wisdom.

I don't believe there is a god, and i am skeptical of the "revealed truth" of scriptures. That's based on my best judgment of all that i have read, heard or seen on the subjects of deities and scriptures. It's certainly not a guess--i was raised in a church, and at first accepted the whole god/devil, heaven/hell claptrap. However, the older i grew to be, the less those stories conformed to my experience of the reality of the world, so i dropped them. I "do" belief all the time. Certitude is at a premium, and is sufficiently rare as to be noteworthy when one finds it. The rest of time, i, like everyone else, operate on beliefs which are formed from arcane learning, experience, intuition and a reliance upon reasonable authority.

(Before you ask, i consider reasonable authority to be someone who has minutely studied a subject, and who makes statements which they are able explain in simple language, and to defend with accounts of experience and research. I don't do well with the "because i say so" variety of authority.)
 

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