How is this definition of "belief"?

@cicerone imposter,

cicerone imposter wrote:

But Frank continues to press Olivier for his definition/understanding of belief.

WHERE??????

0 Replies

@Olivier5,

Olivier5 wrote:

Quote:
You are trying to establish that I have beliefs (for whatever reasons your psyche needs to do so) by essentially saying that assertions and guesses...ARE BELIEFS.

I trust logic works, and that means more than just 'guessing' it works. I would trust my life with it, eg if I was in a perilous situation and there was one way out suggested by logic, and another way suggested by flipping a coin, I'd rather follow logic than coin flipping.

I am convinced that logic works, yet cannot prove it. How do you call something one is convinced of, but can't prove?

I would call it something that I am convinced IS...but I cannot prove it!

What is wrong with that?

Or....I could call it a guess, estimate, presumption, supposition.

Is there some law I do not know about that would require me to call it "a belief?"

1 Reply

@Olivier5,

Olivier5 wrote:

If Frank were to tell me he can fly without any equipment, just by flipping his arms, I would not be more incredulous that when he says he 'doesnt do beliefs'. IMHO, it is not possible to live without any beliefs. He can call them something else if he wants to, though... Like "assertions". I'm fine with whatever vocabulary changes he wants to bring to his own version of the English language.

That is blather, Olivier…something I am coming to expect from you.

I am NOT changing the English language.

I call my guesses…guesses. How is that a change?

I call my suppositions…suppositions. How is that a change?

What on Earth are you doing all this silliness for?

I DO NOT DO ANY BELIEFS.

I have been posting on the Internet for almost 15 years now…tens of thousands of posts and threads by this time. I DEFY YOU TO FIND EVEN ONE EXAMPLE OF ME SAYING “I believe….” EVER…ANYWHERE.

Do it. Prove me wrong.

And if you cannot...why don't you be adult enough to simply stop this nonsense.

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@Frank Apisa,

Quote:

I would call it something that I am convinced IS...but I cannot prove it!

What is wrong with that?

Or....I could call it a guess, estimate, presumption, supposition.

Is there some law I do not know about that would require me to call it "a belief?"

Therefore you are convinced of something yet can't prove it.

You can call that anyway you want. That's true. Call it an assertion.

And I can call that anyway I want too.

I chose to call it a belief, like the dictionary and most people do.

In the end, there's nothing wrong with the assertion that logic works, anyway you decide to label that assertion.

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@Olivier5,

What is ironic about Frank's position is that

Quote:

I would call it something that I am convinced IS

, with the idea that most other people's beliefs are "provable." It's not: Most take "belief" on faith that it is consistent with universal "truths," and we can rely on its reliability to a high degree of confidence.

Statement: "Most college graduates earn more than individuals with just a high school education."

That statement is generally true, but we all know there are always exceptions.

1 Reply

@cicerone imposter,

Quote:

Who doesn't believe in economics? It's how most people "make a living" in developed countries. Without it, the majority would have no luxuries,

I disagree. If we had no wealth we would have no luxuries. But even if we only had two fish and a loaf of bread, using that to maximum benefit is also a matter of economy.
Today, economy is about money. But there is no direct relationship between the amount of money that exists and what we can buy and sell with that money. Scarcity will increase the value of an item, but is there any concern for how the scarce resources will be spent, beyond who is willing to pay most for them?

But capitalism and economy isn't the same thing. I didn't say that I don't believe in capitalism, just that I don't believe that it is what we think it is. It could be argued that the wealth we enjoy doesn't come from our clever utilization of everything we consume. We are wasteful, this is evident. It could be argued that the wealth we enjoy comes from massive infusions of resources that are noticeably absent in other parts of the world.
It might make for good economics, from our end at least, but extremely bad ethics.

1 Reply

@Olivier5,

Olivier5 wrote:

Quote:
I would call it something that I am convinced IS...but I cannot prove it!

What is wrong with that?

Or....I could call it a guess, estimate, presumption, supposition.

Is there some law I do not know about that would require me to call it "a belief?"

Therefore you are convinced of something yet can't prove it.

You can call that anyway you want. That's true. Call it an assertion.

And I can call that anyway I want too.

I chose to call it a belief, like the dictionary and most people do.

In the end, there's nothing wrong with the assertion that logic works, anyway you decide to label that assertion.

You can call it anything you want, Olivier. I have never suggested you must do otherwise.

I have my reasons for not wanting to engage in "belief"...and I will not do so.

I DO NOT HAVE BELIEFS.

Why is that so hard for you to understand...and accept?

1 Reply

@cicerone imposter,

cicerone imposter wrote:

What is ironic about Frank's position is that
Quote:
I would call it something that I am convinced IS
, with the idea that most other people's beliefs are "provable." It's not: Most take "belief" on faith that it is consistent with universal "truths," and we can rely on its reliability to a high degree of confidence.

Statement: "Most college graduates earn more than individuals with just a high school education."

That statement is generally true, but we all know there are always exceptions.

Ya gotta really wonder why you guys are making so much of the fact that I DO NOT HAVE BELIEFS.

What is your problem.

I do not want to disguise what I am saying...I want to be truthful. If I am making a guess...I call it a guess. If it is an estimate or a supposition...that is what I call it.

Why do you think it so much superior to disguise what is being said with the word "believe?"

Just tell me why that seems superior to you?

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c.i…..Olivier:

Here is my thinking illustrated:

The expression: “I believe there is a God who has revealed what pleases and what offends him”…is a declaration that many in society consider to be of special significance. Often society suggests that the “belief” ought to be given special consideration…that we ought to respect that “belief”…even if it means laws being imposed that will prevent a woman from obtaining an abortion if she chooses (because the God is offended by that act)…even if it means same sex couple who love each other can be ostracized (because the God is offended by that situation).

Now…let’s take that expression and put it into other words: “I guess that the world was created by a god…and I further guess that the god revealed what pleases and offends it. I freely acknowledge that I have absolutely no evidence upon which to meaningfully base this guess…so it is essentially a blind guess.”

Can you imagine anyone suggesting that this guess ought be given special consideration…or that it should be afforded respect? Can you imagine anyone suggesting that laws ought to be imposed based on that guess?

When a person says “I believe a God exists and blah, blah, blah”…the person is doing nothing more than expressing a guess…and disguising the fact that it is a guess (a blind, unreasoned guess) by using the word “belief.”

That does not bother either of you?

1 Reply

@Frank Apisa,

Quote:

I DO NOT HAVE BELIEFS.

You have unproven certitudes. Call them as you want.

1 Reply

@Cyracuz,

You're trying to explain a point from the fictional book called the bible. Do you "believe" in the bible?

Yes, economy is about "money." For most who work and get paid, it's what they believe will provide them with the necessities of food, shelter, and (for some) luxuries. The banking system is part and parcel of most economies in developed countries. By our use of banks, we confirm to ourselves that we believe in the system.

Capitalism describes only one idea about "economics." When there are trades of any kind, it's an economy.

Quote:

Definition of economy (n)
Bing Dictionary
e·con·o·my [ i kónnəmee ]
effectiveness: efficiency and conservation of effort in the operation or achievement of something
financial affairs: the production and consumption of goods and services of a community regarded as a whole
reduced expenditure: a financial saving, or an attempt to reduce expenditure
Synonyms: cheap, budget, reduced, family, low-cost, bargain

and

Quote:

e·con·o·my (-kn-m)
n. pl. e·con·o·mies
1.
a. Careful, thrifty management of resources, such as money, materials, or labor: learned to practice economy in making out the household budget.
b. An example or result of such management; a saving.
2.
a. The system or range of economic activity in a country, region, or community: Effects of inflation were felt at every level of the economy.
b. A specific type of economic system: an industrial economy; a planned economy.
3. An orderly, functional arrangement of parts; an organized system: "the sense that there is a moral economy in the world, that good is rewarded and evil is punished" (George F. Will).
4. Efficient, sparing, or conservative use: wrote with an economy of language.
5. The least expensive class of accommodations, especially on an airplane.
6. Theology The method of God's government of and activity within the world.

2 Replies

@Olivier5,

Olivier5 wrote:

Quote:
I DO NOT HAVE BELIEFS.

You have unproven certitudes. Call them as you want.

My guess is that I have very few...and those that I have I would call, "unproven certitudes" (barf!)...or guesses.

So...I have no beliefs.

Not that it much matters, because I have said several times that mostly this only comes into play when discussing the tue nature of REALITY.

On the issue of the true nature of REALITY...I don't think I have anything close to "unproven certitudes"...although I am not unprovenly certain of that.

1 Reply

@Frank Apisa,

Quote:

Often society suggests that the “belief” ought to be given special consideration…that we ought to respect that “belief”…even if it means laws being imposed that will prevent a woman from obtaining an abortion if she chooses (because the God is offended by that act)…even if it means same sex couple who love each other can be ostracized (because the God is offended by that situation).

We're making progress. Yes, that does bother me. I don't respect beliefs anymore than you do. They should normally, as far as religion goes, remain a private affair with no influence on laws and politics. And beliefs can be criticized and mocked. There's no taboo or blasphemy in my part of the world:

http://i.huffpost.com/gen/778411/original.jpg

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@Frank Apisa,

Quote:

On the issue of the true nature of REALITY...I don't think I have anything close to "unproven certitudes"...although I am not unprovenly certain of that.

We can say nothing certain about the true nature of REALITY... Any onthological debate is ultimately futile. :-)

1 Reply

@igm,

That feeling of confidence is what some people call belief. In my mind, "confidence" reflects better the kind of flexibility I imagine such a conceptual frame should have, but that's me. I have no real issue with the word belief, though I find it strange how for some reason certain beliefs should have any kind of immunity to scrutiny.

If I believe that everyone who is shorter than a set height by the age of twenty, should be put into labor camps and used as slaves by the rest of us, I might be able to enforce that through popularity. If there are enough people above the set height limit who go along with my belief, things might start happening.
Then, a few hundred years later, some fellow comes along with a reasonable amount of 'confidence' in economics (my "enslave short people based" one) with some reservations and a hope that the worst mistakes of recent times would not be repeated unless unavoidable... would that be a belief?

Makes it a bit harder to answer that question. Wink

2 Replies

@cicerone imposter,

Quote:

You're trying to explain a point from the fictional book called the bible.

I have said often in this forum that my best guess about the Bible would be that it is a fanciful, self-serving history of the early Hebrew people...interspersed with a rather bizarre mythology.

I am surprised that c.i. is able to be certain it is fiction.

Even though I would guess it contains lots of fiction, it certainly contains plenty of non-fiction also.

There was a place called Egypt, for instance...and it was ruled by a Pharaoh. There also was a Rome...and at times, Rome was ruled by an emperor.

Jerusalem actually existed...as did Bethlehem.

Quote:

Do you "believe" in the bible?

Bet him on it, Cyracuz. I've got several in my den at the moment. The Bible actually exists. Bet him on it.

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@Olivier5,

Olivier5 wrote:

Quote:
On the issue of the true nature of REALITY...I don't think I have anything close to "unproven certitudes"...although I am not unprovenly certain of that.

We can say nothing certain about the true nature of REALITY...

I agree.

Quote:

... Any onthological debate is ultimately futile. :-)

Nah...I gotta disagree. It can lead to more fun than you can imagine. Nothing futile about it at all.

1 Reply

@Cyracuz,

You wrote,

Quote:

though I find it strange how for some reason certain beliefs should have any kind of immunity to scrutiny.

I don't think anybody claimed such - that beliefs are immune to scrutiny.

I think belief is a learned phenomenon from personal experience, environment, culture, and personal perception.

Each person's perception about different aspect of life are derived based on their own "belief" system.

I think most of us arrive at some level of belief, because we can rely on it, and others interpret it somewhat similarly. It minimizes communication difficulties. "I'll see you at 10AM tomorrow at the city hall."

Not many people can confuse the meaning of that message. Not many people are going to interpret that as a guess.

It has a high level of confidence.

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@Frank Apisa,

Yes, it can be entertaining. :-)

1 Reply

@cicerone imposter,

I used a reference from a story. That's hardly explaining a point from the bible. I might as well have said three pints and a pizza for the significance that particular detail has to the point I'm trying to make.
This might be a good example of the benefits of avoiding anything that is even remotely associated with 'belief' in a religious context. Even that rather trivial detail from a familiar story made you associate everything I said with the bible, unless I misread you.

But do you see how the efficiency and conservation of both effort and resources is a central theme in the definitions you supplied? Capitalism has outgrown the frames it was once defined in. It has become about so much more than economy.

1 Reply

How is this definition of "belief"?

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