What would the World be like if JESUS had never been Born?

A M E N !

Thank you all for your participation in this topic. I think it has come to an end now, but I'll leave it open in case any new members come along and wish to add any further comments to the main questions and points raised herein.

Two thoughts: Always wondered about that "Roses are red" riddle....would we all be Jews, or just Jew-ish?

Also, more to the point, what would the world be like if religious politics had never been invented?

It would be invented - welcome aboard cavfancier.

If Jesus Christ had not arrived on the scene, than Islam would be the predominate relgion today.

I wonder of jesus was a clone? c.i.

Religions Confused...
"If Jesus Christ had not arrived on the scene, than Islam would be the predominate relgion today."

Huhhhhhhhhh???

I think someone ought to look up the context of Judeo/Christian/Islamic religions...

In Islam, Jesus (Peace Be Upon Him) is one of the main, but not the last prophet.

Well, one thing is for sure; this forum is keeping him alive. c.i.

Hi Bib, I am rather late to this thread (was intimidated by the number of pages I needed to read) but would like to respond to your questions if it isn't too late:

1. There would be little difference in the world itself if Jesus had never been born, but 1/3 of the people in the world would believe in their own gods instead of the Christian ones. People killed by Christians would have lived and had some effect of the world. Other people would have died in other wars and some currently existing people would never have been born. It is hard to say if there would have been any overall effect.

2. Christianity is the only religion that I know of that makes such an effort to convert people. Without it, there would probably be lots of religions in the Western hemisphere and Europe including Roman, Norse, African and Native American ones, so Hinduism or Islam would probably be the biggest in the world.

3. Many of the failings of individuals who you deny were Christians were a direct result of their Christian beliefs. The Inquisition, Crusades, holy wars, slavery, genocide, misogyny, etc were justified by passages in the Bible.

4. Deciding what is right, moral and just comes from an honest consideration of how to live without causing unnecessary pain and achieve the greatest good, however "good" is defined. We have thousands of years of experience to draw upon and can see the results of countless experiments with value systems. Even Christians cannot agree on morality when it comes to divorce, war, abortion, drinking, baptism, dancing, and just about everything else.

5. If Christmas wasn't celebrated in December, retail sales for that month would plummet.

6. No one knows Joseph's reaction, or if Mary ever believed that she had been impregnated by the Holy Ghost. The gospel writers did a lot of creative writing.

7. No one knows how Mary felt. See above.

8. Some people believe that Jesus was only a man because there is no evidence that he was anything more and because there is no logic to the belief that anyone had to die for God to accept us all unconditionally.

Re the question of what Josephus wrote, I cannot vouch for Dr. Tabor's scholarship, but for what it's worth:

Josephus' Testimony to Jesus
(Testimonium Flavianum)
Josephus, Antiquities 18. 63-64

The words in ALL CAPS are likely interpolations added by Christian copyists over the centuries in an attempt to make Josephus support faith in Jesus as the Christ. We have only three Greek manuscripts of this section of Josephus, all from the 11th century. These phrases, added rather clumsily, appear to be rather obvious additions even to the modern reader in English. Once restored to its more original reading Josephus offers us a most fascinating reference to Jesus. Indeed, it is the earliest reference to Jesus outside the New Testament, and its rather matter of fact, neutral reporting, makes it all the more valuable to the historian. It is worth noting that in his earlier work, The Jewish War, written shortly after the revolt under the auspices of the Emperor Vespasian, he mentioned neither Jesus, nor John the Baptist, nor James, while in Antiquities, written in the early 90s C.E., he mentions all three. For an excellent discussion of this text see John Meier, A Marginal Jew: Rethinking the Historical Jesus (Doubleday, 1991), Vol I, pp. 57-88.

Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man IF IT BE LAWFUL TO CALL HIM A MAN, for he was a doer of wonders, A TEACHER OF SUCH MEN AS RECEIVE THE TRUTH WITH PLEASURE. He drew many after him BOTH OF THE JEWS AND THE GENTILES. HE WAS THE CHRIST. When Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men among us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him, FOR HE APPEARED TO THEM ALIVE AGAIN THE THIRD DAY, AS THE DIVINE PROPHETS HAD FORETOLD THESE AND THEN THOUSAND OTHER WONDERFUL THINGS ABOUT HIM, and the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct at this day (Antiquities 18:63-64).

Professor Shlomo Pines found a different version of Josephus testimony in an Arabic version of the tenth century. It has obviously not been interpolated in the same way as the Christian version circulating in the West:


At this time there was a wise man who was called Jesus, and his conduct was good, and he was known to be virtuous. And many people from among the Jews and the other nations became his disciples. Pilate condemned him to be crucified and to die. And those who had become his disciples did not abandon their loyalty to him. They reported that he had appeared to them three days after his crucifixion, and that he was alive. Accordingly they believed that he was the Messiah, concerning whom the Prophets have recounted wonders.

http://www.uncc.edu/jdtabor/josephus-jesus.html

Hello Terry, it's nice to see you here.

You said: "The words in ALL CAPS are likely interpolations added by Christian copyists over the centuries in an attempt to make Josephus support faith in Jesus as the Christ"

Is this your opinion or do you have evidence to support it?

Terry's statement: "5. If Christmas wasn't celebrated in December, retail sales for that month would plummet." An interesting observation. I wonder, tho, if it isn't Christmas, our marketing guru's would have created something in it's place. c.i.

What other type of 'X'-mas would it have been?

Buddmas!
Islamas!
Hindumas!

I'm not sure, but the most popular religion would have a head start.

Jesus was not borned on Dec 25th, his birthday was moved to that date to take up the pagan ritual in most ancient societies of the shortest day of the year being followed by a longer day, then another one being longer, etc ( ie, the world isn't coming to an end).

Bib, my last post is a cut-and-paste from the link I gave at the bottom (I don't know how to use the quote function for external material). As I noted, I cannot vouch for Dr. Tabor's sources, although the link came from a Dead Sea Scroll website and I have seen the same thing elsewhere. The scholars who believe that it is a Christian interpolation make a good case, but since no original documents exist I don't know what kind of evidence you think anyone could provide.

Of course, no original documents exist for any of the books of the Bible either, and there is no proof that any of the words and miracles attributed to Jesus are correctly reported. Mark, the earliest gospel, was written more than four decades after the death of Jesus and none of the gospel writers were eyewitnesses to the events in question.


Re holidays, Dec. 8 is Bodhi Day which celebrates the enlightenment of Shakyamuni Buddha under the Bodhi Tree. Meelad al-Nabi commemorates the birth of the prophet Muhammad on August 20, 570 A.D. Hindus celebrate Ganesh Chaturthi on Sept. 10. There are many others.

Had Jesus not been born, some entirely different religion might have arisen with its own holidays, and they would probably have had one to coincide with the winter solstice. People like having an excuse to celebrate. Lack of holidays is one of the drawbacks to not belonging to an organized religion.

Terry, I had the opportunity to visit Sarnath, India, to see the Bodhi tree. c.i.

Terry: you said, "The scholars who believe that it is a Christian interpolation make a good case, but since no original documents exist I don't know what kind of evidence you think anyone could provide."

If there is no original from which to clarify the assertion that the writings of Josephus have been allegedly modified then, any comment on such an issue is pure heresay or human invention.

Bib, we have a 10th century Arabic edition of Josephus and an 11th century Greek version that do not agree, so somewhere along the line something was added or subtracted. There was no reason for anyone to delete a reference to Jesus, but Eusebius would have had reason to add one.

Personally, I do not doubt that a man called Jesus was the source of the NT stories, and only offered the passage in response to an earlier post.

I just do not believe that Jesus was the son of God, performed genuine miracles, was resurrected, or said half of the things attributed to him.


c.i, is it really the same Bodhi tree? And is there anywhere you haven't been?

If .. , then there would have been no "St. Matthew Passion" of Bach, J.S.
There can be infinitely many interpretations (performances) of the masterpiece. However, I think, one of the most important points in interpreting (performing) the masterpiece is whether one thinks or not, "It was determined." With one attitude toward this point, performance of the ending part of the masterpiece differs drastically from another interpretation.