What would the World be like if JESUS had never been Born?

CI, churches everywhere make all kinds of ridiculous claims, such as being built by angels & other such nonsense. There's a church in Ethiopia which claims, with the belief of most of the country, that it contains the Ark of the Covenant stolen from Israel (but of course no one's allowed to see it because "they'll surely die").

Monger: Graham Hancock writes about that very Church and their story of The Ark of the Covenant, in his book, "The Sign and the Seal."

That's great. And what, pray tell, does he say?

And what good is what he or anyone else says on it if no one's allowed to see it in the first place?

I'm reminded of the opening passage of The Pilgrim's Progress, in which the main character, Christian, runs into his neighborhood, brandishing a bible, and telling his neighbors of the proximity of salvation if they will only believe . . . it must be true, it's written down in this book . . .

Hancock says, "The old monk (in Ethiopia) who claimed to be the Ark's present guardian explained that it was wrapped in thick cloths when it was carreid in religious processions - not to protect the Ark, but to protect other people from its powers."

He also said, "it sounded rather like atomic radiation."

If it were proved that Jesus were not an historical figure, then would your faith falter and you'd quit being a Christian?

Piffka: welcome back! To whom is your question directed?

To you. And I'm hoping not, but I wondered, since it seems so important to have him be historically justified.

It wasn't my intention to use this thread as a means of proving the historicity of Jesus Christ; it came up in the course of dialogue, and I merely responded to those questions.

It is not important to me whether Jesus Christ is proved or disproved as an actual historical person or not.

Setanta: can you please advise me what it actually says in the manuscript or transcription that you have of the complete works of Josephus with respect to Antiquities of the Jews, Book XVIII, CHAPTER 3, PARAGRAPH 3?

Thanks, in advance.

I've already done so, but you persist in playing this game . . . play with someone else, Bib, you're simply tedious to me now, and it is not worth the effort to make a careful response to you . . .

I am quite fond of the forthrightness and unwavering beliefs of C.S. Lewis (though I don't quite share them). I thought it interesting that he decided since he was from England, that the Church of England was the best religion for him, even though he was influenced by JRR Tolkien's Catholicism, he actively chose the Church of England.

He was also, I think, much taken with the similar stories of Norse mythology and believed them to be a presentiment of Christianity.

He has some great quotes, but this is one I like:

"Miracles are a retelling in small letters of the very same story which is written across the whole world in letters too large for some of us to see."

He also said, "Christianity, if false, is of no importance, and if true, of infinite importance. The only thing it cannot be is moderately important."

I've never understood if he meant the historical facts or something else. Do you have any comment on that Bib?

Setanta: you said, "Bib, you're simply tedious to me now, and it is not worth the effort to make a careful response to you."

I'm sorry you feel that way, and that you have misjudged my questions as a "game." I thought you would have at least extended us all the courtesy of responding to my citation from Josephus with the one which you believe has not been "tampered with by a christian."

In the interests of fairness, openness and balance, don't you think that you should post your citation here for others to read?

I did that, already, don't you read what i write?

Piffka: I've requoted part of the C.S. Lewis citation here: ""Christianity, if false, is of no importance, and if true, of infinite importance. The only thing it cannot be is moderately important."

I had never read that C.S. Lewis comment before, much to my shame, considering that he lived only 100 yards from my home! And today, I now work in the very building were he used to spend his summer vacations!

I have read the Screwtape Letters, but nothing more of C.S. Lewis than that.

Setanta: you did? What page is it on? There's that many posts on this thread now, I can't remember them all.

OK, on page seven (based upon 50 posts per page), at 2:13p.m., i posted a refutation which i found at a Jewish history site--no, i did not post a "correct" version, in as much as there is no evidence of this passage existing in a text which has not been tampered with by christians. If you will find that post of mine, you will be able to read the refutation i found at the Jewish History site, as well as the URL for that site.

Setanta: you said, "there is no evidence of this passage existing in a text which has not been tampered with by christians."

I had asked you previously, in the interests of fairness etc, to post on this thread the actual Josephus text which you say has not been "tampered with by christians." You said that "I've already done so," however, I couldn't find it. You then stated, "I did that, already, don't you read what i write." Again I couldn't find the qoute, so you directed me to a URL on one of your earlier posts, which I have since read and noted the following closing remark at the end of the "New Information" section:

"For the first time, it has become possible to prove that the Jesus account cannot have been a complete forgery and even to identify which parts were written by Josephus and which were added by a later interpolator."

Yes, i was imprecise in what i wrote. The text to which i referred was the one you had posted before i wrote my comment. That is the text to which i referred, but i also said in my last post that i cannot offer you a text which has not been tampered with, because i know of no such text being in existance--once again, please read what i write carefully. We've both misunderstood each othere here, i was posting a refutation of the passage from Josephus which you had posted.



I saw this as well, but did not include it, because it referred to a URL which DID NOT take me to the promised text. With some more work on-line, it might be possible to find that text. However, please note both the text of this statment: ". . . which parts were written by Josephus and which were added by a later interpolator." This is why the reading of historigraphical source materials is so crucial. That "new information" does not claim that the Josephus text proves that the Jesus text is not a forgery, rather that it is not a complete forgery. It also refers to sections of the text as having been added by a later interpolator. This gives no information that states or even suggests that Josephus was actually confirming the existence of Jesus. Once again, there would have been no reason for Josephus to have used the name Jesus to describe Joshuah, or, to be more precise, the Rabbi Yeshua. If you want to continue this nonsense, then you go find that text, and if you do, provide a URL which, without quibble, and in clear language states that any portion of any text by Josephus states that Jesus existed--and i might be willing to believe it, if there is nothing suspect about the author of this information. You've yet to provide any citations, other than to say that you have a copy of Josephus in front of you. Since you haven't provided any information about the publisher, the editor, or the sources used in that copy of yours, i have no reason to trust it any more than i do any other interpolation of Josephus which anyone has attempted to foist off on me in lo these many years of dealing with those who are not satisfied with their own beliefs, but must insist that others believe, without providing adequate evidence.

Setanta:

How can you make the assertion, and allegation, which you've done so repeatedly in this thread, that the Josephus text which I cited in response to your request for evidence of Jesus Christ's historicity, that you "cannot offer... a text which has not been tampered with, because i know of no such text being in existance?"

I must at least thank you for your honesty in admitting this, eventually.