What would the World be like if JESUS had never been Born?

Setanta: thanks, I've never seen the musical but I have heard the song quite a few times.

Why do some A2K members believe that Jesus was only a man?

I always heard he was "the father, the son, and the holy ghost." c.i.

Yes indeed, and thank you for that - you are the first person I've ever heard online who has made that connection!

if jesus had never been born.
Well, obviously because his teachings (even when misinterpreted) have affected so many, that history and subsequent philosophy would be dramatically altered. However, I feel that the world itself would clearly still be the same, or worse. People, even Christians, still seek revenge, start unjust wars, drink and eat to excess, obsess over material possesions. There is no reason for one to believe that this would be any different if he had been born.

jesus existed
Wait. His original name sounds something along the lines of Yeshua, which is a Hebrew form of Joshua, yes. It was translated to Greek, and yeah, sure it was a common name. But he has been recorded in sources (near his time, of course) other than the Bible. The Jewish historian Josephus, primarily. In addition, if he was a concotion of human minds who were merely longing for a messiah, why would they choose to include in it such radical, and passive commandments such as 'love thy neighbor' 'love thy enemy' 'turn the other cheek'?

Amv, you will achieve immortal fame if you can produce an irrefutably genuine text of Josephus which asserts that Joshuah the Messiah did indeed exist. In fact, if you can provide any of those ". . . sources (near his time, of course) other than the Bible." which prove such an individual existed, your undying fame will be assured. As for "the Bible"--provide a copy of said document dating from any earlier than the fourth or fifth century, which includes the "new testament" and you will also achieve undying fame. If you will read the beginning of this thread, you will see rather extensive comments on the reliability of the assertion that there is documentary evidence of the existence of one Joshuah the Messiah.

AMV: welcome and thank you for your input.

You said, "People, even Christians, still seek revenge, start unjust wars, drink and eat to excess, obsess over material possesions."

As I have mentioned before, there is a distinction between those who call themselves Christians and do the things you have mentioned, and those people who are true followers of Christ's teachings and lifestyle and do the things that He did.

Setanta: you stated, "you will achieve immortal fame if you can produce an irrefutably genuine text of Josephus..."

That's quite a stringent criterion you have requested. what is your definition of "an irrefutably genuine text?"

Why do some A2K members believe that Jesus was only a man?

A text, the physical substance of which can be demonstrated by internationally accepted standards of imperical evidence to date from the era in which it was reputed to have been produced, which is written in the appropriate language, and precedant and antecedant portions of which are consonant with known existant texts. Every time i object to someone trotting out specious "proofs" of the existence of your Joshuah the Messiah, Bib, you try to put me on the spot as though i were playing fast and loose with standards of proof. I really rather doubt that you are so dense as not to understand why, for example, there is a significant body of sceptical scientific commentary on the shroud of Turin. Claiming that such an individual as Joshuah the Messiah existed is making an extraordinary claim, and those who make such claims have the burden of proving them. AMV has claimed that there is a text of Josephus which proves this--as this is an entirely new piece of evidence, all AMV need do is produce that text, and be prepared to demonstrate to a reasonable standard of imperical examination that the text is genuine, and his/her undying fame will be assured.

Setanta, That shroud was proved to be a fake simply on the basis that a cloth laid on a face does not come out with a photo image. c.i.

Setanta: you said, "Bib, you try to put me on the spot as though i were playing fast and loose with standards of proof."

If I wanted to put you on the spot I would do it privately through the necessary medium provided, however, you've misjudged my intention in asking you the question about your criterion for proof.

If one doesn't know what someone else's criterion for proof is, then how can they be expected to provide the necessary evidence to comply with another's requirement. That is a simple matter of clarification, nothing more, or nothing less - such was my intention in asking you the question.

Disclaimer: I've only read a couple of posts, but was moved to make a statement. I do not intend to take issue with anyone, or challenge any belief.

For those who know Jesus, no proof is needed.

It is neat when things like the Dead Sea scrolls or James' burial box are unearthed, but not necessary.
Alot of Christian publications and evangelists try to produce 'proof' of Jesus' life, but to what end? Even if we find undeniable proof that Jesus existed and did everything the Bible says He did, there is no proof that He was the Son of God, but that proof that resides in those who know Him.

CI: I agree with your comments about the Shroud of turin.

LG: feel free to comment on ANY aspect of this discussion. I welcome your input, as well as that of everyone who has contributed thus far.

What WOULD the world be like?
I would imagine it being
exactly the way it is right now!
Don't you?
There would be a few less
Christians, but then the
earths dominant populations
in terms of religion would no
doubt still be largely Hindu or
Buddhist ... and in so many
ways - ALL these major
religions are so alike. In the
end, each one of us must go
to meet our Creator alone,
as we entered this world,
alone.
CHOOSE! Follow one of many
paths of another who yells, "THIS
is the way" - the ONLY way!
Or -put your faith on the line
and forge your own path to
your own special brand of
spirituality - your OWN
experience of your Creator
as each of us must eventually
do.....one is easy but lacks
true spiritual growth, we rest
on the "work" of others. Or
cast your own nets, and
become searchers for your
own, individual Creator

Hello Babs. It was good of you to drop in and join us.

You said, "...put your faith on the line and forge your own path to your own special brand of spirituality - your OWN experience of your Creator..."

Do you think that the world would be a better place if we all did our OWN thing?

Well, Bib, standards for the "proofs" contained in texts are pretty standard, and have been over centuries. So, when you ask me what criteria i use for proof, i seems to me that either you question my knowledge of what standards are applied to the verification of texts, or you imply that i'm attempting to establish some extraordinary standard. The first time you did this, i complied on the basis that it would be useful to the discussion to have a statement of what the standards for historically reliable sources are. The second time you did this to me, it definitely felt like harrassment. This is not a case of my imposing my personal standard, Bib, these are standards which are universal in academic historiography.

Setanta: once again you've made another one of your general assertions about "standards which are universal in academic historiography."

I'll ask you again, but this time I'll spell it out more clearly:

What are the specific criterion; the diagnosis tools etc (please provide detailed examples) that you say are "standards which are universal in academic historiography."

Please spell out these "standards" for us, then we all will know what your benchmark is for deciding "proof" of Jesus's existence. Is it too much to ask you for DETAILS of what you say are "standards" which are used as tools for determining "proof" ?

I am surprised that you have interpreted my questions for details of your standards for proof as a form of "harassment." They are merely questions whose sole aim is to bring forth information, so that all A2K members in this Forum can benefit from. Nothing more, or nothing less is intended by such questions.