What would the World be like if JESUS had never been Born?

Origins of Christmas Traditions, Part Two

husker: I took a quick look at the Origins of Christmas URL, but I didn't find any references to Saturnalia.

The Cambridge Dictionary has this to say about Saturnalia:

Saturnalia
noun [C]
an ancient Roman celebration which happened on December 19th, or literary a party where people behave in an uncontrolled way

There is also the following interesting connection between Saturn and Saturnalia, and the December date:

Saturn...
...in Roman religion and mythology, god of harvests, later identified with the Greek Kronos . Little is known of the origins of his cult. His reign was regarded as the Golden Age. He was the husband of Ops and the father of Jupiter, Juno, Ceres, Pluto, and Neptune. It was said that after the fall of the Titans, Saturn fled to Italy, where he settled on the Capitoline Hill, civilized the people, and taught them the arts of agriculture. At his festival, the Saturnalia, held at first on Dec. 17 but later extended for several days thereafter, gifts were exchanged, schools and courts were closed, war was outlawed, and slaves and masters ate at the same table.

The American Heritage Dictionary has this to say about Saturnalia:

1. Saturnalia The ancient Roman seven-day festival of Saturn, which began on December 17. 2. (used with a sing. verb) A celebration marked by unrestrained revelry and often licentiousness; an orgy.

Well now, the Christmas plot thickens!

According to American Heritage Dictionary, Saturnalia was: "A celebration marked by unrestrained revelry and often licentiousness; an orgy."

Ahem...is anyone planning on such a Christmas celebration?

You might find the following worth a read - it explains the origin of Christmas as first observed at Alexandria, Egypt:

Alexandria. The first evidence of the feast is from Egypt. About A.D. 200, Clement of Alexandria (Strom., I, xxi in P.G., VIII, 888) says that certain Egyptian theologians "over curiously" assign, not the year alone, but the day of Christ's birth, placing it on 25 Pachon (20 May) in the twenty-eighth year of Augustus. [Ideler (Chron., II, 397, n.) thought they did this believing that the ninth month, in which Christ was born, was the ninth of their own calendar.] Others reached the date of 24 or 25 Pharmuthi (19 or 20 April). With Clement's evidence may be mentioned the "De paschæ computus", written in 243 and falsely ascribed to Cyprian (P.L., IV, 963 sqq.), which places Christ's birth on 28 March, because on that day the material sun was created. But Lupi has shown (Zaccaria, Dissertazioni ecc. del p. A.M. Lupi, Faenza, 1785, p. 219) that there is no month in the year to which respectable authorities have not assigned Christ's birth. Clement, however, also tells us that the Basilidians celebrated the Epiphany, and with it, probably, the Nativity, on 15 or 11 Tybi (10 or 6 January). At any rate this double commemoration became popular, partly because the apparition to the shepherds was considered as one manifestation of Christ's glory, and was added to the greater manifestations celebrated on 6 January;

The area of concern:



I was on the run and made a few mistakes; plus, didn't elaborate enough. Let me try to do justice:

First off, the solstice can happen as late as the twenty-second, so let me have that day, please:

Well we are all sitting around the fire, having been born just this year - all of us (that's the way good origin of being stories start). So this is 0 FDOTW (see, back then, years were so short - we could have more initials-FDOTW stands for First Days of The World). Okay, so see - each night we're sitting around that camp fire roasting our Mammoth meat and starting in September we notice the days are getting shorter - no big deal, no worry, they're not that much shorter.

Come November we start worrying, on December 15-20 we have become absolutely horrified-and on the 21-22 we are running around yelling at the Gods and staying up all night praying. Man, are we scared that the Sun is going to leave us for good in just no time.

Then on the twenty-third, we notice that the sun stayed up a little longer. We get refreshing sleep that night but we don't say anything. You know, don't want to kill the Karma! Then on the 24th, it is up for even longer and we are convinced-toal AWE. We run out and kill a fresh cave bear, dig out a bunch of saved goodies, make a new wrap for the wifey, stay up all night on the hooch and praying (need hooch for good spiritual communication, maybe some smoke even) - then on the 25th we feast, we celebrate and we are rejoicing.

Well, hope the full length version works better!

http://www.nationalreview.com/shiflett/shiflett122102.asp

Bill: great story, it brought a smile to my face.

Believe it or not, I was reading an article five weeks ago, were a British astronomer, with an interest in the Druids and Stonehenge, came up with the very theory that you've just described!!

Now I'm wondering, is this astronomer YOU, or is it a drinking buddy from the States? :wink:

AU: thanks for the NRO article, it was very interesting; and I liked the authors sense of humour (he must have Irish ancestry!).
Here is one excerpt that I thought might be relevant to this thread:

And so the very thought of Jesus still stirs the pot — 2,000 or so years after a most-humble birth, modest blue-collar professional life, and without leaving behind any personal writings, conquered cities, or a tombstone. No matter what your religious beliefs, or lack thereof, this is an impressive achievement. By some interpretations it supports belief in Divinity; by others it proves the human race is at least partly insane, and perhaps largely insane. For my part, I've always believed a little craziness is a very good thing. It tends to inoculate one against total madness.

Looks like you've all gone shopping or fallen asleep on this topic!

OK, we'll resume this tomorrow...there's more to say.

While I'm gone, have a think about the following questions:

What was Joseph's reaction when Mary told him she was pregnant by God?

How did Mary feel, knowing that her betrothed husband, Joseph, was "minded to put her away?"

Bib, The better question is, how many husbands would have believed that their wife was made pregnant without sex two thousand years ago? c.i.

Bib says:



Actually, it is my compilation of many various articles and stories I have read. All societies have a ritual and festival around the winter soltice. The fashion of the writing was Indian, but it is taylored toward the days of wayback yore when it was all ice and mountains.

About your question about Mary and Joseph. I have brought this same question up in many different gathering and get a "what's wrong with you, you're weird" kinda response. In other words, "How dare you infer something like that!" I usually tell them, "I just made the statement - you're doing the thinking!"

c.i., you suggest what that question would do 2000 years ago (Mary would have probably been stoned!) - just think of the response you would get today, in the hospital, from the clergy, from your husband, from your friends, from the court - wow!

Another question or two along these lines - back in those days marriage was considered very, very sacred. Marriage was not considered a fact until it was consumated. Mary was a virgin. Jesus was therefore born out of wedlock? And, what do you think a husband would say to a "wife" who said "not tonight honey, I have a headache" for over 9 months.

Bill: you said, "Marriage was not considered a fact until it was consumated."

Here in the UK and Ireland, and for all I know, the USA and Australia etc, NO marriage is considered LEGAL until there has been sexual intercourse. Non-consummation still remains grounds for annulment of a marriage contract.

So you see, the Biblical definition of marriage still stands in many courts and legal systems today!

CI & Bill: in terms of Mary's consummation, here's what the Bible says:

Luke 1:30 "And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God.
Luke 1:31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.

Luke 1:34 Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man?
Luke 1:35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God."

Bib says:



But they weren't married!

There are a lot of holy rollers running around in my area that proclaim this to be quite a problem with America, cause of AIDs, why we are at war, why hurricanes and tornadoes happen, ya-di-dah-di-dah. Yet the rules seem to be a little bent here!

If I am Joseph, I say - "Whoa, wait a second here, where's the stones! You have a headache with me and then you're doing what with ghosts?"

By the way, in answer to the original question, "The World" is my world, and in my world if Jesus hadn't been born I would be missing a very important guiding light!

Welcome back Bill.

I'm glad that you've detected the twist in the questions that I've raised regarding Mary and Joseph.

Were they married or not?

Because the Father of Jesus was GOD, as the text in Luke's Gospel mentions, then did that make Mary the wife of GOD???!!!