11
   

Approaching a Peace Between Israel and the Palestinians

 
 
RABEL222
 
  2  
Reply Thu 18 Apr, 2013 05:49 pm
@Advocate,
There is that reference to that book written by Jews for the benefit of Jews. Not historically accurate.
Advocate
 
  0  
Reply Fri 19 Apr, 2013 12:45 pm
@RABEL222,
Do a little digging and you will find that it is totally accurate.
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Fri 19 Apr, 2013 02:15 pm
@Advocate,
Quote:
Do a little digging and you will find that it is totally accurate.


You are saying that the Bible is totally accurate????
Advocate
 
  0  
Reply Fri 19 Apr, 2013 03:04 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Absolutely NOT! I was referring to the Washington Post piece that showed that the '67 war was started by the Arabs.
Frank Apisa
 
  -1  
Reply Fri 19 Apr, 2013 03:14 pm
@Advocate,
Quote:
Re: Frank Apisa (Post 5307533)
Absolutely NOT! I was referring to the Washington Post piece that showed that the '67 war was started by the Arabs.




You should have been more specific.

Rabel's certainly seemed to be referencing the Bible…and you were responding to that post.

Sorry you had to go through an explanation.

In any case, earlier you wrote, “The Bible says it was their (the Jews) land.

Do you think the Bible should be used as a reference in this issue? Do you consider the Bible to be an impartial reference?
JTT
 
  0  
Reply Fri 19 Apr, 2013 03:45 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Quote:
In any case, earlier you wrote, “The Bible says it was their (the Jews) land.

Do you think the Bible should be used as a reference in this issue? Do you consider the Bible to be an impartial reference?


You sure do have a knack for getting yourself into contradictory situations, Frank.

You still haven't divulged the "grammar" books that you see as impartial and accurate references.
0 Replies
 
RABEL222
 
  -1  
Reply Fri 19 Apr, 2013 04:19 pm
@Frank Apisa,
That was why the Isralies attacked the USS Liberty and killed 34 american seaman because they were worried that the ship would warn the Arab league that they (the arab league) were about to start a war. Does this reasoning make sense to anyone? Or is it more reasonable to believe that the Isralies tried to sink the ship to keep it from informing the Arab league that they (the Isralies) were about to start a war. But it was ok. The Isralies are our good friends and allies. If it becomes necessary for them to kill a few americans in self defense, so be it.
Advocate
 
  2  
Reply Sat 20 Apr, 2013 07:28 am
@RABEL222,
RABEL222 wrote:

That was why the Isralies attacked the USS Liberty and killed 34 american seaman because they were worried that the ship would warn the Arab league that they (the arab league) were about to start a war. Does this reasoning make sense to anyone? Or is it more reasonable to believe that the Isralies tried to sink the ship to keep it from informing the Arab league that they (the Isralies) were about to start a war. But it was ok. The Isralies are our good friends and allies. If it becomes necessary for them to kill a few americans in self defense, so be it.


The Israeli planes shot up the Liberty by accident. It was sitting in the middle of a war zone and, being an intell ship, it was not clearly marked as a US ship. There was no wind that day, so the flag was hanging and could not be identified.
Walter Hinteler
 
  0  
Reply Sat 20 Apr, 2013 07:56 am
@Advocate,
Advocate wrote:
... and, being an intell ship, it was not clearly marked as a US ship. There was no wind that day, so the flag was hanging and could not be identified.
I don't know where you got your knowledge about how to identify a ship. During all the time I did it (which was during the cold war) the nationality flag would have been the last to be looked at.
http://i34.tinypic.com/25gxwyp.jpg
Auxiliary Technical Research Ship (AGTR)

But according to the Israel Defense Forces, History Department, they didn't want to identify the nationalty of the ship:
http://i38.tinypic.com/2cp23vm.jpg
0 Replies
 
RABEL222
 
  1  
Reply Sat 20 Apr, 2013 10:08 am
@Advocate,
You stupid jerk. It was in international waters. Its lying bastards like you that get us into foriegn wars because you have a foreign agenda. In your case its spend american lives to protect Isralie politicians.
Advocate
 
  2  
Reply Sat 20 Apr, 2013 12:26 pm
@RABEL222,
RABEL222 wrote:

You stupid jerk. It was in international waters. Its lying bastards like you that get us into foriegn wars because you have a foreign agenda. In your case its spend american lives to protect Isralie politicians.


First, do you have to be so nasty? Second, what is your proof that it was in international waters? That is not my understanding. Moreover, when we have been at war, we have never hesitated hitting the enemy in international waters. Ask Germany and Japan. Third, note that there is no flag visible in the photo.

I guess you are the jerk. BTW, the correct spelling is "Israeli."
Walter Hinteler
 
  0  
Reply Sat 20 Apr, 2013 12:49 pm
@Advocate,
Advocate wrote:
what is your proof that it was in international waters? That is not my understanding.
But even the Israelis don't deny it.
From above quoted source:

http://i36.tinypic.com/24oyreq.jpg
http://i34.tinypic.com/ht8q2t.jpg
http://i35.tinypic.com/iddw0n.jpg
0 Replies
 
RABEL222
 
  1  
Reply Sat 20 Apr, 2013 06:14 pm








Why did Israel attack?

We are frequently asked, "Why did Israel attack?"

The motive is irrelevant. If motive were a factor, then Charles Manson should be released for lack of plausible motive.

The facts are clear. Nearly every researcher who has seriously investigated the circumstances agrees that the attack was deliberate. Evidence is overwhelming.

In any case, the attack on USS Liberty was a war crime even if one accepts the Israeli version of what happened, and we know that the Israeli version is untrue.

Most senior US government officials of the era and nearly every senior intelligence official agrees -- often based upon study of intercepted communications -- that Israeli forces deliberately attacked a ship they knew to be American. Why they chose to do that is not an issue.

We were an intelligence ship and they were doing something that they did not want the US to know about. One popular writer of Jewish fear-literature, John Loftus, writes in "The Secret War Against the Jews" (a Jewish version of The Turner Diaries) that Israel attacked deliberately because Israeli authorities believed that USS Liberty was relaying Israeli war plans to Egypt in order to assure the destruction of the Jewish State. That is patently ridiculous, but widely accepted even in Israel. Loftus claims to have documented his position through interviews with long lists of "retired old spies" whom he refuses to identify. While Loftus may be correct about Israeli paranoia, he is totally wrong about Liberty's mission. Liberty's primary mission was to collect intelligence on the Soviet forces in the area. The ship didn't even have a qualified Hebrew linguist aboard. So why did they attack?

Intelligence analysts agree that they attacked because they feared we might learn something that they did not want the United States to know.

That could have been

1. The planned invasion of the Golan Heights which was set to start a few hours after Liberty's arrival in the area. When Liberty arrived, the invasion was postponed for 24 hours, Liberty was attacked, and the invasion took place the next day. Did they postpone the invasion until Liberty out of the way and unable to report on the war?

2. It is possible that they were afraid that Liberty might learn and report to the United States that Israeli forces were executing up to 1,000 Egyptian Prisoners of War at El Arish at the very moment that Liberty was just 13 miles off shore.

3. It is also possible that USS Liberty was attacked to prevent the ship from reporting a deliberate massacre of 14 Indian United Nations peacekeepers that took place in Gaza shortly before Israel's attack on USS Liberty.

Israeli apologists dismiss these stories as untrue or wildly speculative, despite the fact that they are well documented. Israeli apologist-historian Michael Oren in his book "Six Days of War" and in published articles dismisses the claim as untrue claiming that, if it were true, there would be mass graves, reports in the major media, and great outcries from Egypt for justice.

Behold! There are mass graves, major media reports and cries for justice.

Attention is invited to

CNN reporting on the subject which reports the mass graves

http://edition.cnn.com/WORLD/9509/mass_graves/

and a TIME Magazine story which reports the outcry

http://www.time.com/time/international/1995/951002/middleeast.html

More on the atrocities can be found in

Jim's report in The Washington Report on Middle East Affairs,
and in Jim Bamford's Body of Secrets.

On March 7, 2008, the Egyptian Administration ordered the Egyptian Foreign Ministry to investigate these very serious allegations.
For details see: http://egyptianpows.net/2008/03/07/the-foreign-ministry-is-officially-responsible-of-the-pow-case-in-egypt/



Return to the opening page


Jim Ennes and Joe Meadors
0 Replies
 
Advocate
 
  2  
Reply Sun 21 Apr, 2013 09:50 am
Egyptian atrocitiesIsraeli historian Aryeh Yitzhaki estimated that the Egyptians killed about 200 Israeli soldiers who had surrendered. Yitzhaki based his claim on army documents. In addition, dozens of Israeli prisoners were beaten and otherwise mistreated in Egyptian captivity.[249]

Individual Israeli soldiers gave testimony of witnessing comrades killed after surrendering to the Egyptians, or seeing the bodies of Israeli soldiers found blindfolded with their hands tied behind their backs. Avi Yaffe, a radioman serving on the Bar-Lev Line, reported hearing calls from other soldiers that the Egyptians were killing anyone who tried to surrender, and also obtained recordings of soldiers who were saved from Egyptian firing squads. Photographic evidence of such executions exists, though some of it has never been made public. Photos were also found of Israeli prisoners who were photographed alive in Egyptian captivity, but were returned to Israel dead.[249][250]

The order to kill Israeli prisoners came from General Shazly, who, in a pamphlet distributed to Egyptian soldiers immediately before the war, he advised his troops to kill Israeli soldiers even if they surrendered.[249]

-- Wikipedia
RABEL222
 
  2  
Reply Sun 21 Apr, 2013 06:51 pm
@Advocate,
This has what to do with the USS Liberty?
Advocate
 
  1  
Reply Mon 22 Apr, 2013 08:26 am
@RABEL222,
It brings out the false and distorted information spewed out by you Israel haters.
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Mon 22 Apr, 2013 08:37 am
@Advocate,
It hardly illustrates that, Advocate. It only illustrates that others, in addition to the Israelis, can be brutal.
0 Replies
 
Advocate
 
  1  
Reply Mon 22 Apr, 2013 04:07 pm
Confirmation that the attack on the US Liberty was a tragic error.

USS Liberty: Final Nail in the Lie
Last Update: 09/07/2003 04:59

U.S. agency confirms sinking of USS Liberty was accident

By Nathan Guttman, Haaretz Correspondent


WASHINGTON - New documents released this week by America's National Security Agency support Israel's version of a long-festering controversy between the two countries: Israel's sinking of an American spy ship, the USS Liberty, off the coast of Gaza during the 1967 Six-Day War.


Israel has always said it had no idea the ship was American, but
conspiracy theorists and anti-Israel propagandists still claim Israel sank the ship in the full knowledge that it was American.

The documents, originally defined as top secret, were made public by Florida Judge Jay Cristol, who has been investigating the Liberty incident for years and published a book on the subject last year. On Monday, the NSA gave him a transcript of conversations held by two Israeli Air Force helicopter pilots who were hovering over the Liberty as it was sinking, and these tapes
confirm Israel's claim that the sinking of the ship, which killed 34 American servicemen and wounded 171, was a tragic error.

After the Liberty was bombed by both the Israel Air Force and the Israel Navy, the two helicopter pilots were summoned from their base to assess the damage and evaluate the possibility of rescuing the surviving crew members. An American spy plane, which had been sent to the area as soon as the NSA learned of
the attack, recorded their conversations, which took place between 2:30 and 3:37 P.M. on June 8, the third day of the war.

The spy plane also recorded the orders radioed to the pilots by their supervisor at Hatzor Base, which instructed them to search for Egyptian survivors from the "Egyptian warship" that had just been bombed - thus supporting Israel's claim that it had believed the ship was Egyptian when it ordered it attacked. "Pay attention. The ship is now identified as Egyptian," the pilots were told.

Nine minutes later, Hatzor informed the pilots that it was not an Egyptian warship, but an Egyptian cargo ship. Only at 3:07 were the pilots first informed that the ship might not have been Egyptian at all: Hatzor told them that if they found Arabic-speaking survivors, they should be taken to El-Arish, but if they
found English-speaking survivors, they should be taken to Lod. "Clarify by the first man that you bring up, what nationality he is, and report to me immediately," the supervisor instructed, according to the transcript. "It's important to know."

Then, at 3:12, one of the pilots informed Hatzor that he saw an American flag flying over the wounded ship. He was asked to investigate and determine whether it was really an American
ship.

This is not the first time such transcripts have been made public: Israel gave its own recordings of the pilots' conversations to the
British television station Thames in 1987. But conspiracy theorists charged that Israel had doctored the tapes before handing them over to the station in order to hide the fact that it sank the Liberty intentionally. No such imputation can be made about these new transcripts, as they were never in Israeli hands.

Israel has always said it attacked the Liberty, which America sent to the region to gather intelligence on the progress of the war,
because it believed it was an Egyptian supply ship ferrying supplies to the Egyptian troops that Israel was then fighting. When it discovered the error, it immediately informed the Americans, apologized and paid compensation to the victims' families.

The incident was investigated by inquiry commissions in both Israel and the United States, and both concluded that it had, indeed, been a tragic error. Nevertheless, the controversy never died. In 1979, one of the survivors, James Ennes, published a book accusing Israel of bombing the American ship deliberately. Ennes claimed an Israeli spy plane had hovered over the ship all morning and had surely identified it as American, since the American flag was clearly visible.

A later book, written by James Bamford, charged that Israel sank the ship in order to keep America from learning of its plans to attack Syria, and further claimed that the NSA had tapes of conversations among Israeli pilots that not only confirmed this, but also proved that the tapes released by Israel had been
doctored.

Another claim that appears frequently on the dozens of Internet sites devoted to the affair is that Israel sank the ship to conceal a mass murder of Egyptian soldiers on the Sinai peninsula.

In its letter to Cristol, the NSA stressed that, contrary to the claims that often appear in such books and Web sites - that the agency has tapes from both the Liberty and from a nearby
American submarine that confirm Israel's guilt - the only tapes that exist were those made by the spy plane and given to Cristol this week.

"It's the last piece of intelligence that remained classified, and every rational person that will read it will understand that there is
no truth in these conspiracy theories against Israel," Cristol said Tuesday. But he added: "Those who hate Israel, who hate Jews, and those who believe in conspiracy will not be convinced by anything."

Cristol, a former U.S. navy pilot and legal officer, began investigating the Liberty incident 14 years ago. Since publishing his book, which vindicates Israel, he has received threats and been accused of being an Israeli agent. "I take this lightly, but I am saddened to learn that there is this kind of hate toward Israel," he said.

http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/spages/315934.html
0 Replies
 
RABEL222
 
  2  
Reply Mon 22 Apr, 2013 05:36 pm
Nathan Guttman Writes for a Jewish newspaper Haaretz. I am sure he got his last word from the Jewish government and their CIA whatever the hell they call it. Bet they told him to print it exactly like they told him or he would get a 38 slug in his ear. Too many US citizens who were there disagree with the Jewish and US version of what happened. Politicians lie through their teeth all the time. Ill take the word of the people involved. Not a bunch of ass covering politicians.
0 Replies
 
Moment-in-Time
 
  1  
Reply Mon 22 Apr, 2013 06:37 pm
@RABEL222,
Quote:

There is that reference to that book written by Jews for the benefit of Jews. Not historically accurate.


How true. The Old Testament has called the Jews the Chosen People. And many non-Jewish unknowledgeable people believe this. This is a vulnerability Israel exploits when saying "Americans love us!" BS! The animosity that many Americans feel against the Zionist government is staggering. One of the main reasons the US is so hated in the middle east is because of the liability called Israel. One of the reasons the US was attacked on 9/11 was because of Israel.
 

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