@InfraBlue,
Quote:but has castigated priests for refusing to baptize the children of single mothers
Priests in the Catholic Church are allowed to not baptize children due to them being born out of wedlock in this day and age!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Amazing to have such an issue at all in any modern mainspring church.
Second note that come into my mind I was under the impression that any member of the church can baptize a child and there is one case of the church seizing a child from a Jewish couple as their maid had baptize the child and therefore he was catholic!!!!!
Quote:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edgardo_Mortara
Edgardo Mortara
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Not to be confused with Edoardo Mortara.
Edgardo Mortara (right) with his mother and brother (possibly Ericole or Aristide), c. 1880.
Edgardo Levi Mortara (Bologna, Papal States, August 27, 1851 – Liège, Belgium, March 11, 1940) was an Italian boy who became the center of an international controversy when he was removed from his Jewish parents by authorities of the Papal States and raised as a Catholic. Mortara was born and raised Jewish during the first six years of his life, until he was taken from his family by Church authorities who took custody of the boy after receiving a report that he had been given emergency baptism by a domestic servant during a serious infantile illness. The rationale for this action was that in the Papal States, it was against the law for non-Catholics to raise Catholic children. Mortara was adopted by Pope Pius IX and entered the seminary in his teens.
@Joe Nation,
Joe Nation wrote:
Speaking as a former Catholic who still stays in touch with many Catholics (including, of course, my brother the Priest), anyone who expects any real changes in the Church must also believe it is easy to steer an iceberg.
Joe(All ahead slow)Nation
Something new may be in the wind. I saw a pic showing pink smoke rising from the chimney.
@BillRM,
Anyone CAN baptize (for what it is worth) a baby...including a pagan like me. It all has to do with intention.
@Frank Apisa,
Although a priest is what is known as "the ordinary minister" of the sacrament.
@Joe Nation,
Icebergs travel with the currents. Hes come out several times against the sex scandals in the US priests and Bishops. (His tenure down in BA has always been pretty scandal free and hes been a real prick with those priests who wouldnt tow his line of universal inclusiveness.
Hes a good start
@Joe Nation,
Joe Nation wrote:
Speaking as a former Catholic who still stays in touch with many Catholics (including, of course, my brother the Priest), anyone who expects any real changes in the Church must also believe it is easy to steer an iceberg.
Joe(All ahead slow)Nation
There's no such thing as a "former Catholic," since one did not convert to another faith. You might be a non-practicing Catholic, but still a Catholic. I assume you were not excommunicated.
Holy water is indelible.
He's not the first non European. The first pope was not from Europe.
He was apparently the second choice last time around, but Benedict got the nod. I think it's an interesting choice. Francis is a good name.
1) Saint Peter: Bethsaida, modern-day Israel(33 – 64 A.D.)
2) Pope Saint Evaristus: Bethlehem, modern-day West Bank (97 – 105)
3) Pope Saint Anicetus: Emesa (today known as Homs), Syria (155 – 166)
4) Pope Saint Victor I: Leptis Magna, modern-day Libya (189 – 199)
5) Pope Saint Miltiades: Somewhere in North Africa (311 – 314)
6) Pope Theodore I: Jerusalem, modern-day Israel and West Bank (642 – 649)
7) Pope John V: Antioch, then Syria but today part of Turkey (685 – 686)
8) Pope Sisinnius: Syria (708)
9) Pope Constantine: Syria (708 – 715)
10) Pope Gregory III: Syria (731 – 741)
@Ceili,
Yup. And, technically, it's not even correct to describe Francis as non-European inasmuch as ethnically he's of Italian descent. That his birthplace is Argentina is merely an accident of geography.
@BillRM,
BillRM wrote:
Second note that come into my mind I was under the impression that any member of the church can baptize a child and there is one case of the church seizing a child from a Jewish couple as their maid had baptize the child and therefore he was catholic!!!!!
Any Catholic can baptize a child in an emergency situation. It is my opinion, that when limbo was considered the fate of an unbaptized baby that died, many a Jewish child was baptized in the hospital by a "good Catholic nurse." The intent was not to make the child Catholic, but to save it from an eternity in limbo, in case it died. The baptism was done out of love, not increasing the size of the flock.
@Lustig Andrei,
My maternal grandfather went from his birth in Italy...to be educated in Switzerland, to Argentina, sailed to California...and made his way to Long Island where he met my maternal grandmother.
Lots of people who are descendants of Italians in Argentina.
@Foofie,
Quote:The intent was not to make the child Catholic, but to save it from an eternity in limbo, in case it died. The baptism was done out of love, not increasing the size of the flock.
I do not question for a moment in the case I had written about that the Jewish couple maid acted out of love and concern but not the church afterward who actions including the then Pope can only be view as evil by most moral codes.
But if it is that important to baptize a child to safe guard a child from eternity limbo that made the actions of some modern priests in refusing to do so when it involved out of wedlock births even more of a sin or would you not say so?
@BillRM,
Look, Im no apologist but priests can get their official Catholic Catechetical roadmaps all fucked up like any other clergy. Look at that Dewey minister of the Westbrook Baptist clan, you dont indict an entire religion for the failings of a few assholes.
The priests who failed to baptise the little kids who were productsof unwed mothers and mothers with AIDS got their asses handed to them. It was a big news item in Buenos Aires.
@farmerman,
How wonderful it is to see that the Vatican has elected a former Hollywood mogul, Francis Ford Popola!
@Ragman,
Surprising. I would have thought Francis were so old as to be too pooped to pope.
@farmerman,
Quote:The priests who failed to baptise the little kids who were productsof unwed mothers and mothers with AIDS got their asses handed to them. It was a big news item in Buenos Aires.
I am happy indeed that those priests were punished for their actions and yet it is my understanding that the new Pope stated it is child abused to allow gays to adopted children.
He seems more of the same old same church to me in every sense that it matter even if he been known to ride a bus.
@Frank Apisa,
Spanish spoken in Argentina sounds like Italian, particularly in the way they accent the penultimate syllables.
Well, now that that brief splash in the catholic pond has settle down, we can all get back to the same old same old.
@georgeob1,
George,
I thought it interesting to see how easy it was to detect the different accents in the speaking of Latin. I wonder if modern Italian gives a better accent to the Roman's language than other accents...even other Romance languages.
I was complimented on my pronunciation and enunciation of Latin as an altar boy...but even I realize that scholars think that Latin as spoken in ancient Rome sounded much less melodic than Italian as now spoken...and Latin as now taught.
I think Francis' family did emigrate from Italy.
I am only going to say this: the women of the world ought to take note that despite the fact that there was no man involved in the birth of Christ, that it was mostly women who stood at the foot of the Cross and watched over Christ in his final human moments and only women who were brave enough to go to his tomb three days after, the Church just elected a new Pope without the input, influence or advice of a single female voice or soul.
I am happy that this new Pope selected a name not previously used, so at least we will not have to refer to him with a title that sounds like every other European King.
Joe(that is all)Nation
@BillRM,
BillRM wrote:
But if it is that important to baptize a child to safe guard a child from eternity limbo that made the actions of some modern priests in refusing to do so when it involved out of wedlock births even more of a sin or would you not say so?
I can't comment on someone else's job description. Plus, as a secular Jew, if I was going to criticize the Roman Catholic Church for any less than ethical behavior, I'd start with the canard that it was just the Jews (the Sanhedrin) that got Christ crucified (the Romans got a free pass?). And, I might be correct to say that the historical theology included "the wandering Jew" as penance for having rejected Christ. Sort of gives credence to those that are anti-Zionist today, if one subscribes to the belief that Jews are supposed to wander the Earth until the end of times.
