9
   

"There was two Mini Cooper parked in front of my house", or "there WERE two mini coopers"?

 
 
Falco
 
  2  
Reply Fri 22 Feb, 2013 06:43 pm
@InfraBlue,
I understand.
It was only meant to be relevant humor. When I saw that question, in its literal sense, I immediately thought of Ludwig Wittgenstein's language game.
0 Replies
 
ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Fri 22 Feb, 2013 06:58 pm
@spendius,
I love Amarcord, but you must know that.

I'm ok on grammar except when I mess up, and a lot of my messes are re "sounds like" words, brain typos. I call them hyenas.

I can't see the youtube, am with a computer that apparently can't be updated re the very next whatsit, advertised to me mockingly wherever I go online.

You are taunting someone's vocabulary, is it Frank?
Give him a break, he understands grammar.
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  0  
Reply Fri 22 Feb, 2013 07:26 pm
@fresco,
Quote:
My contrary experience is that many kids would have no idea what you mean by "polite language ".


That sort of anecdotal experience can easily be shown to be false, Fresco, because all kids know virtually every grammatical structure by age five or six. Certainly kids, being kids need help and encouragement wending their way into adulthood.

But none of this has anything to do with teaching kids prescriptions/falsehoods about language. Yes, they should learn the conventions for SWE, but there's no need to lie to them in order to do this.

Quote:
Do you think middle class educators have the credibility in the eyes of their audience to counter the normal forces of social reality.


Most assuredly not. When even university professors are guilty of passing on this nonsense, how can one expect junior high teachers to stick their necks out. Lash fled a conversation on language for precisely that reason.

But I'm not sure what that has to do with stopping the teaching of falsehoods.
JTT
 
  0  
Reply Fri 22 Feb, 2013 07:33 pm
@InfraBlue,
Quote:
So, how does language work, JTT?


This is an excellent description of how language works, Infra. If you have any further questions, please feel free to ask.

Quote:

Grammar Puss

Steven Pinker

http://pinker.wjh.harvard.edu/articles/media/1994_01_24_thenewrepublic.html


Language is a human instinct. All societies have complex language, and everywhere the languages use the same kinds of grammatical machinery like nouns, verbs, auxiliaries, and agreement. All normal children develop language without conscious effort or formal lessons, and by the age of three they speak in fluent grammatical sentences, outperforming the most sophisticated computers. Brain damage or congenital conditions can make a person a linguistic savant while severely retarded, or unable to speak normally despite high intelligence. All this has led many scientists, beginning with the linguist Noam Chomsky in the late 1950's, to conclude that there are specialized circuits in the human brain, and perhaps specialized genes, that create the gift of articulate speech.

But when you read about language in the popular press, you get a very different picture. Johnny can't construct a grammatical sentence. As educational standards decline and pop culture disseminates the inarticulate ravings and unintelligible patois of surfers, rock stars, and valley girls, we are turning into a nation of functional illiterates: misusing [hopefully], confusing [lie] and [lay], treating [bummer] as a sentence, letting our participles dangle. English itself will steadily decay unless we get back to basics and start to respect our language again.

What is behind this contradiction? If language is as instinctive to humans as dam-building is to beavers, if every 3-year-old is a grammatical genius, if the design of syntax is coded in our DNA and wired into our brains, why, you might wonder, is the English language in such a mess? Why does the average American sound like a gibbering fool every time he opens his mouth or puts pen to paper?

The contradiction begins in the fact that the words "rule" and "grammar" have very different meanings to a scientist and to a layperson. The rules people learn (or more likely, fail to learn) in school are called [prescriptive] rules, prescribing how one "ought" to talk. Scientists studying language propose [descriptive] rules, describing how people [do] talk -- the way to determine whether a construction is "grammatical" is to find people who speak the language and ask them. Prescriptive and descriptive grammar are completely different things, and there is a good reason that scientists focus on the descriptive rules.

To a scientist, the fundamental fact of human language is its sheer improbability. Most objects in the universe -- rocks, trees, worms, cows, cars -- cannot talk. Even in humans, the utterances in a language are an infinitesimal fraction of the noises people's mouths are capable of making. I can arrange a combination of words that explains how octopuses make love or how to build an atom bomb in your basement; rearrange the words in even the most minor way, and the result is a sentence with a different meaning or, most likely of all, word salad. How are we to account for this miracle? What would it take to build a device that could duplicate human language?

Obviously, you need to build in some kind of rules, but what kind? Prescriptive rules? Imagine trying to build a talking machine by designing it to obey rules like "Don't split infinitives" or "Never begin a sentence with [because]." It would just sit there. In fact, we already have machines that don't split infinitives; they're called screwdrivers, bathtubs, cappuccino- makers, and so on. Prescriptive rules are useless without the much more fundamental rules that create the sentences to begin with. These rules are never mentioned in style manuals or school grammars because the authors correctly assume that anyone capable of reading the manuals must already have the rules. No one, not even a valley girl, has to be told not to say [Apples the eat boy] or [Who did you meet John and?] or the vast, vast majority of the trillions of mathematically possible combinations of words. So when a scientist considers all the high-tech mental machinery needed to arrange words into ordinary sentences, prescriptive rules are, at best, inconsequential little decorations. The very fact that they have to be drilled shows that they are alien to the natural workings of the language system. One can choose to obsess over prescriptive rules, but they have no more to do with human language than the criteria for judging cats at a cat show have to do with mammalian biology.

So there is no contradiction, after all, in saying that every normal person can speak grammatically (in the sense of systematically) and ungrammatically (in the sense of nonprescriptively), just as there is no contradiction in saying that a taxi obeys the laws of physics but breaks the laws of Massachusetts. But still, this raises a question. Someone, somewhere, must be making decisions about "correct English" for the rest of us. Who? There is no English Language Academy, and this is just as well; the purpose of the Acade'mie Franc
aise is to amuse journalists from other countries with bitterly-argued decisions that the French gaily ignore. Nor was there any English Language Constitutional Conference at the beginning of time. The legislators of "correct English," in fact, are an informal network of copy-editors, dictionary usage panelists, style manual writers, English teachers, essayists, and pundits. Their authority, they claim, comes from their dedication to implementing standards that have served the language well in the past, especially in the prose of its finest writers, and that maximize its clarity, logic, consistency, elegance, precision, stability, and expressive range. William Safire, who writes the weekly column "On Language" for the [New York Times Magazine], calls himself a "language maven," from the Yiddish word meaning expert, and this gives us a convenient label for the entire group.

To whom I say: Maven, shmaven! [Kibbitzers] and [nudniks] is more like it. For here are the remarkable facts. Most of the prescriptive rules of the language mavens make no sense on any level. They are bits of folklore that originated for screwball reasons several hundred years ago and have perpetuated themselves ever since. For as long as they have existed, speakers have flouted them, spawning identical plaints about the imminent decline of the language century after century. All the best writers in English have been among the flagrant flouters. The rules conform neither to logic nor tradition, and if they were ever followed they would force writers into fuzzy, clumsy, wordy, ambiguous, incomprehensible prose, in which certain thoughts are not expressible at all. Indeed, most of the "ignorant errors" these rules are supposed to correct display an elegant logic and an acute sensitivity to the grammatical texture of the language, to which the mavens are oblivious.

The scandal of the language mavens began in the 18th Century. The London dialect had become an important world language, and scholars began to criticize it as they would any institution, in part to question the authority of the aristocracy. Latin was considered the language of enlightenment and learning and it was offered as an ideal of precision and logic to which English should aspire. The period also saw unprecedented social mobility, and anyone who wanted to distinguish himself as cultivated had to master the best version of English. These trends created a demand for handbooks and style manuals, which were soon shaped by market forces: the manuals tried to outdo one another by including greater numbers of increasingly fastidious rules that no refined person could afford to ignore. Most of the hobgoblins of contemporary prescriptive grammar (don't split infinitives, don't end a sentence with a preposition) can be traced back to these 18th Century fads.
MattDavis
 
  3  
Reply Fri 22 Feb, 2013 07:42 pm
@JTT,
JTT wrote:
Quote:
Yes, isn't the question what is the plural of Mini Cooper?
[I suspect tongue in cheek]
but anywoo ...


I would like to go on record as stating that you have used the spelling of 'anywho' both incorrectly and inappropriately.

I take it on high authority(my own) as well as upon exhaustive interweb searches that the correct and appropriate spelling is "anywho".

Usage:
This question has developed into a political debate, but anywho...
... how about those linguists? They sure know how to have a good time.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Thanks!
This was the most heated discussion of grammar I have ever read.
Noam Chomsky would be proud.
Keep fighting the good fight.
JTT
 
  2  
Reply Fri 22 Feb, 2013 07:53 pm
@MattDavis,
Quote:
I would like to go on record as stating that you have used the spelling of 'anywho' both incorrectly and inappropriately.


Duly noted, Matt.

0 Replies
 
Falco
 
  2  
Reply Fri 22 Feb, 2013 08:00 pm
@MattDavis,
[I'll let JTT handle the top part.]
--------------------------------------------------------------------
[I wish to convey a thought on this part below the line. ]
Chomsky would be a little distraught, but Wittgenstein would be proud.
This thread is an example that question's the assertions by Chomsky's theory of Universal Grammar. I always saw Chomsky's linguistic universalism as problematic and creating more problems than necessary, but nevertheless not useless, per se. In contrast Wittgenstein was trying to introduce relativism and remove dogmatism from our thoughts concerning language. Chomsky's project would probably be frowned by Wittgenstein if he were alive. Razz
ossobuco
 
  2  
Reply Fri 22 Feb, 2013 08:01 pm
@MattDavis,
Honey, that is a play word.
Falco
 
  1  
Reply Fri 22 Feb, 2013 08:03 pm
@ossobuco,
I agree with you. Nothing more than a internet slang and definitely nothing significant to lead to finger pointing. The appropriateness is in each one's subjective taste, I suppose.
MattDavis
 
  1  
Reply Fri 22 Feb, 2013 08:05 pm
@JTT,
Quote:
But I'm not sure what that has to do with stopping the teaching of falsehoods.

I don't know if your suggestion is this, but do you think that it is never appropriate to teach children a falsehood?
MattDavis
 
  2  
Reply Fri 22 Feb, 2013 08:37 pm
@Falco,
My comment was more directed regarding Chomsky's political proclivities, than his linguistic theories. (Also I wanted to throw around some big names like Pinkerton and Wittgenstein to disguise my lack of reading regarding linguistics).
Hopefully, I might still rely upon the imitation of the speech patterns of my 'betters', in order to adequately disguise such personal flaws.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If you want to engage regarding the intricacies of linguistic theory, I think you might find me a poor person to be engaged to. Laughing
0 Replies
 
MattDavis
 
  1  
Reply Fri 22 Feb, 2013 08:42 pm
@ossobuco,
ossobuco wrote:
Honey, that is a play word.

Drats! You've seen through my guise.
Is the word as farcical as my comments?
I hope not. I take great pride in farce.
-------------------------------------------
How dare you call a vegan 'honey'?
Perhaps correct, but surely inappropriate. Laughing
InfraBlue
 
  1  
Reply Fri 22 Feb, 2013 08:43 pm
@JTT,
Yeah, I've read Pinker. I saw him debating William F. Buckley Jr. making the very same assertions.

I've brought this up before on another thread some time ago. One thing is the instinctual nature of language, another thing is at what point is non-standard speech acceptable? A three year old speaks logically when for the past tense of "run" he says "runned," because "-ed" is the English phoneme for past action, and no one is mistaken about what exactly he is trying to say, but is it really something acceptable as regular, everyday speech? Do you propose to let that three year old continue speaking that way because the standard form of the past tense of the word "run" is irregular, comes from a dead version of the language, and what's more, is illogical? If you don't, then where do you draw the line?
InfraBlue
 
  1  
Reply Fri 22 Feb, 2013 08:46 pm
@MattDavis,
MattDavis wrote:

ossobuco wrote:
Honey, that is a play word.

Drats! You've seen through my guise.
Is the word as farcical as my comments?
I hope not. I take great pride in farce.
-------------------------------------------
How dare you call a vegan 'honey'?
Perhaps correct, but surely inappropriate. Laughing


You all eschew honey?
ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Fri 22 Feb, 2013 08:48 pm
@Falco,
Sorry, I was mean - I've heard anywho, anyhoo, and variations for a long time.

It's a pulse word or phrase, so it goes.
ossobuco
 
  2  
Reply Fri 22 Feb, 2013 08:50 pm
@MattDavis,
That's my worst side, calling anyone honey.

Splaaaat.
ehBeth
 
  2  
Reply Fri 22 Feb, 2013 09:09 pm
Forget Mini Coopers.

Give me Gary Cooper any old day.

http://www.favolosi-cappelli.it/pics/cappello-900/gary-cooper.jpg
MattDavis
 
  1  
Reply Fri 22 Feb, 2013 09:10 pm
@InfraBlue,
Quote:
You all eschew honey?

Yes I do. I do eschew.
I do eschew, and so should you. Laughing
---------------------------------------------------------
I avoid honey but I don't feel like honey is a huge issue in terms of animal welfare.
There are bigger fish to fry, to pick an appropriate, yet sick and twisted metaphor. Wink
----------------------------------------------------------
Honey is the transubstantiation of veganism.
You just have to decide one way or the other, but don't tell anyone which way you decided, lest ye be judged.
0 Replies
 
MattDavis
 
  1  
Reply Fri 22 Feb, 2013 09:27 pm
@ehBeth,
He's dreamy.
0 Replies
 
MattDavis
 
  1  
Reply Fri 22 Feb, 2013 09:29 pm
@ossobuco,
ossobuco wrote:
That's my worst side, calling anyone honey.

If that's your worst, can't wait to see your best...
[wink] [wink] [nudge] [nudge]
Nailed it!
0 Replies
 
 

Related Topics

deal - Question by WBYeats
Let pupils abandon spelling rules, says academic - Discussion by Robert Gentel
Please, I need help. - Question by imsak
Is this sentence grammatically correct? - Question by Sydney-Strock
"come from" - Question by mcook
concentrated - Question by WBYeats
 
Copyright © 2024 MadLab, LLC :: Terms of Service :: Privacy Policy :: Page generated in 0.07 seconds on 06/15/2024 at 11:06:10