18
   

Earth to Msolga. Do you copy? Over!

 
 
JTT
 
  -1  
Reply Sun 2 Dec, 2012 01:05 pm
@dalehileman,
Quote:
….although I've read many such reports and little to the contrary


It matters a great deal where you read such reports, Dale. Think about it. Have you read many reports that describe the US as the biggest terrorist group on the planet? Have you read many reports that describe the war crimes of Ronald Reagan? the numerous felonies committed by his administration? the 10 million killed by the US since WWII?


Likely not. It matters a great deal where you read such reports.
dalehileman
 
  -1  
Reply Sun 2 Dec, 2012 01:09 pm
@JTT,
JTT I can't document my feeling but I get the impression that your position is somewhat exaggerated so I invite comment from others in this regard
spendius
 
  -2  
Reply Sun 2 Dec, 2012 02:42 pm
@dalehileman,
Quote:
Spend I'm rapidly gaining the perhaps false and outrageous impression that you might be of Eastern descent and so you feel any such comment an affront, and if that's the case I most sincerely apologize

….although I've read many such reports and little to the contrary

….so you might set us straight


I'm from middle England. I spent some time in Arabic countries though. No affront taken. I'm unaffrontable.

As I said--I don't know. I've seen odd reports but I would guess there is more to them than we are told about. I don't criticise other cultures. I think sex crime over there is a small fraction of what it is here. I deplore all unnecessary injustices.

You tell me. You have the evidence surely. Just saying that that happened is not sufficient for me to judge. I would rather live here than there though. In fact I would rather live here than anywhere. I'm with Dylan. I pity the poor immigrant.
spendius
 
  -3  
Reply Sun 2 Dec, 2012 02:45 pm
@spendius,
BTW dale--JTT doesn't really need 10 million. One is sufficient.
0 Replies
 
dalehileman
 
  -1  
Reply Sun 2 Dec, 2012 03:02 pm
@spendius,
Quote:
I'm from middle England. I spent some time in Arabic countries though.
If not confidential what's your line

Quote:
No affront taken. I'm unaffrontable.
Very important to the writer as I might have implied

Quote:
…... I would guess there is more to them than we are told about.
I daresay, probably much to their credit. However in some respects their press is very bad

Quote:
I don't criticise other cultures.
In some cases tho it's fully justified

Quote:
I think sex crime over there is a small fraction of what it is here.
Of course that depends upon how one defines "sex crime"

Quote:
Just saying that that happened is not sufficient for me to judge.
All I know is what I read in the paper or hear on news tv

Quote:
I would rather live here than there though.
I would hope so

Quote:
In fact I would rather live here than anywhere.
Me too. Most of us don't appreciate what a great thing we have going

Quote:
I'm with Dylan. I pity the poor immigrant.
Too lazy to review previous postings but I'm not so sure about that, you might amplify on the statement. Mexican immigrants seem to like it here

If it's no imposition I wonder if you might reveal something more about yourself Spend; age, sex, ed., family, interests (obviously one is chatting herewith), hopes, etc etc
spendius
 
  0  
Reply Sun 2 Dec, 2012 04:25 pm
@dalehileman,
Quote:
If not confidential what's your line


I dodge from tree to tree.

Quote:
In some cases tho it's fully justified


I'm not so sure. It often seems that way I must admit.

Quote:
Of course that depends upon how one defines "sex crime"


Yes--I know. Ms Greer said that all men are rapists and it made her instantly famous. Many a feminist has repeated it. A crime is an offence against the law.
Suppose that draconian punishment of certain sexual behavior is necessary because under the conditions such behavior is dangerous. For real I mean. And they are at a different stage of development to that we are at. In the 18th century a well connected brothel madam was "stoned" to death here in the pillory by the public. Single girls were whipped for getting pregnant.
Now, madames of international prostitution organisations fly business class and have expensive and discreet offices close to the main action. And single girls who get pregnant are top of the waiting list for a free house.
I hope it doesn't take these countries as long to arrive at those as it took us but for them to do so it would require them to have a similar life-style to us and I'm not sure the earth could take the strain.
I read that the carbon footprint of the average person in Chad in a year was less than the carbon footprint of one of those automatic doors when it detects our approach. Each time.

My posts reveal everything I wish to reveal.
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  0  
Reply Sun 2 Dec, 2012 05:05 pm
@dalehileman,
Quote:
so I invite comment from others in this regard


These A2Kers don't do honesty, Dale, so you won't see any comment from them in this regard.

This might help you.

Quote:
Deaths In Other Nations Since
WW II Due To Us Interventions


By James A. Lucas

24 April, 2007

...

This study reveals that U.S. military forces were directly responsible for about 10 to 15 million deaths during the Korean and Vietnam Wars and the two Iraq Wars. The Korean War also includes Chinese deaths while the Vietnam War also includes fatalities in Cambodia and Laos.

The American public probably is not aware of these numbers and knows even less about the proxy wars for which the United States is also responsible. In the latter wars there were between nine and 14 million deaths in Afghanistan, Angola, Democratic Republic of the Congo, East Timor, Guatemala, Indonesia, Pakistan and Sudan.

But the victims are not just from big nations or one part of the world. The remaining deaths were in smaller ones which constitute over half the total number of nations. Virtually all parts of the world have been the target of U.S. intervention.

The overall conclusion reached is that the United States most likely has been responsible since WWII for the deaths of between 20 and 30 million people in wars and conflicts scattered over the world.

...

http://www.countercurrents.org/lucas240407.htm
spendius
 
  0  
Reply Sun 2 Dec, 2012 05:57 pm
@JTT,
But you have to look to the credit side JT. An NFL game played in London for example. And cicerone imposter being able to see different parts of the world a few times every year.

Things like that don't grow on trees you know.

When farmerman can afford to go out into the ocean, supervised by the coastguards and with the rescue services on permanent 24/7 alert acting as a safety net, to admire some whales exercising their blowholes, somebody is getting fucked over.

Have you no aesthetic taste or sense of proportion?
0 Replies
 
dalehileman
 
  0  
Reply Sun 2 Dec, 2012 06:11 pm
@JTT,
Quote:
knows even less about the proxy wars for which the United States is also responsible
Besides Vietnam, Korea, Iraq, and now Afghanistan, yes I'm vaguely aware of them, there were scores if not hundreds but it seems we're becoming increasingly conscious of their futility

But forgive me guys, I've lost the gist of our discussion

Incidentally who is Msolga and why is she so interesting
JTT
 
  -2  
Reply Sun 2 Dec, 2012 08:32 pm
Quote:
US war-murdered 20-30 million since WW2: arrest today’s War Criminals

Posted on April 2, 2012 by Carl Herman

US covert and overt criminal Wars of Aggression caused 20-30 million deaths of human beings since World War 2, according to the outstanding documentation of James Lucas of Countercurrents.org. The US use/support of armed attacks is documented in 37 countries, and in direct violation of treaties after both world wars (Kellogg-Briand and UN Charter) to forever end armed attacks unless first attacked by another nation’s government.

The end of this gruesome and psychopathic history of armed attacks and war-murders in the Orwellian names of unalienable rights and freedom will end upon the demand of enough in the 99% to arrest the obvious current War Criminals.

What will you think, say, and do at this historic moment in US history?

What would make your family and you most proud, with consideration of your relatives who sacrificed dearly in wars?

What is the future you will work to earn: the continued path of lies, destruction and death of the 1%, or building a brighter future for 100% of Earth’s inhabitants? As you know, choosing 100% demands your intellectual integrity and moral courage to help expose and end the crimes of the current 1%. So this question is more: what is your life really for?

http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2012/04/us-war-murdered-20-30-million-since-ww2-arrest-todays-war-criminals.html

0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  0  
Reply Mon 3 Dec, 2012 05:04 am
@dalehileman,
Quote:
Incidentally who is Msolga and why is she so interesting


She flounced off the site and one or two people tried to make some silly point about her gesture as if those who had upset her were to blame for disagreeing with her. Something like that.
JTT
 
  -1  
Reply Mon 3 Dec, 2012 08:54 am
@dalehileman,
Quote:
Besides Vietnam, Korea, Iraq, and now Afghanistan, yes I'm vaguely aware of them, there were scores if not hundreds but it seems we're becoming increasingly conscious of their futility


Yes, hundreds, Dale. But we're not near conscious enough of the long history of heinous crimes, the unrelenting terrorism that has been the hallmark of the USA. Whenever you hear any US politician/member of the media talk of terrorists, you have to know that the sum total of all the terrorist actions of those from the NE and ME is but a drop in the bucket compared to the US.
JTT
 
  2  
Reply Mon 3 Dec, 2012 08:58 am
@spendius,
Quote:
one or two people tried to make some silly point about her gesture as if those who had upset her were to blame for disagreeing with her. Something like that.


Not at all like that, Spendi. Robert was a royal prick. Had MsO realized that he pulls these cheap stunts when he's up a stump, it would have been water off a slicker. He doesn't want his well crafted demi-god role diminished. That could affect revenues.
spendius
 
  0  
Reply Mon 3 Dec, 2012 10:27 am
@JTT,
Quote:
He doesn't want his well crafted demi-god role diminished.


I should think not. What's the point of investing all that care and money in something if you don't get to be a demi-god, at least?

If I owned the site, heaven forbid, there were be a lot more than Olga shunted elsewhere.

I would be dedicated to abling people to know rather than wading through a load of blurted assertion, ad-homs, bullshit, and how to cook some cheap veggies and how lovely the result.

Bob's patience and tolerance never ceases to amaze me. He must have a lot more faith in human nature than I do.

Imagine having a bloke like cicerone imposter on a site called Able 2 Know. He's been on for years and has not found out anything he didn't already know before he started.
dalehileman
 
  -1  
Reply Mon 3 Dec, 2012 11:06 am
@spendius,
Quote:
Something like that.
Thanks Spend

We're a feisty group aren't we
0 Replies
 
dalehileman
 
  -1  
Reply Mon 3 Dec, 2012 11:17 am
@JTT,
Quote:
the unrelenting terrorism that has been the hallmark of the USA
Not being a historian JTT I can only respond again, that sounds a bit exaggerated while many if not most of us today look back at what we then considered the right thing with huge misgiving

Besides it's not always obvious, the right thing to do. Our majority for instance was against getting involved in WWII, to hell with England, we said. As for Korea I can only agree that it was a mistake on practical grounds as the North's leadership has proven a cruel totalitarian Stalinist dictatorship
JTT
 
  0  
Reply Mon 3 Dec, 2012 12:50 pm
@spendius,
Quote:
If I owned the site, heaven forbid, there were be a lot more than Olga shunted elsewhere.


Because you believe so much in freedom of speech, right?

Quote:
I would be dedicated to abling people to know rather than wading through a load of blurted assertion, ad-homs, bullshit, and how to cook some cheap veggies and how lovely the result.


That wasn't his plan, ever. Bullshit makes for better revenues. Besides, you've seen how few there are who want actually to know.

Quote:
He's [CI] been on for years and has not found out anything he didn't already know before he started.


I think he found out way too much truth and he simply couldn't handle it. There's a lot of folks like that.
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  0  
Reply Mon 3 Dec, 2012 01:09 pm
@dalehileman,
Quote:
Not being a historian JTT I can only respond again, that sounds a bit exaggerated while many if not most of us today look back at what we then considered the right thing with huge misgiving


You only look back at it as "the right thing with huge misgivings" because you have been subjected to a lifetime of the most effective propaganda scheme the world has ever seen, Dale.

Quote:
Besides it's not always obvious, the right thing to do.


You say that, again, because of the propaganda you've been subjected to. The US has never, not once concerned itself with "the right thing to do". It has always been about securing US business interests. As soon as you take that tact, the result is these horrific war crimes that have been the hallmark of US foreign policy.

Think, Dale. How in heavens name is any of this, always the same old phony excuse, US national security. The US has never had anyone who threatened their NS. The US spends more than the next 14 countries combined and 12 of those are allies. Nobody is threatening US NS.

Quote:
As for Korea I can only agree that it was a mistake on practical grounds as the North's leadership has proven a cruel totalitarian Stalinist dictatorship


Again, the propaganda seeps to the top. Count the number of brutal totalitarian right wing dictatorships the US has installed and supported. The numbers dead, 10 million and counting, tells you what the US really is.

Read the following. Spend the time to hear what this former top CIA says about US invasions. Note that he says all this part of the public record, the US public record.

Quote:

THE SECRET WARS OF THE CIA:
part I
THE INNER WORKINGS OF THE NATIONAL SECURITY COUNCIL AND THE CIA'S COVERT ACTIONS IN ANGOLA, CENTRAL AMERICA AND VIETNAM
by John Stockwell

http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Stockwell/StockwellCIA87_1.html

[Part 2 available at,

http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Stockwell/StockwellCIA87_2.html

...

What we're going to talk about tonight is the United States national security syndrome. We're going to talk about how and why the U.S. manipulates the press. We're going to talk about how and why the U.S. is pouring money into El Salvador, and preparing to invade Nicaragua; how all of this concerns us so directly. I'm going to try to explain to you the other side of terrorism; that is, the other side of what Secretary of State Shultz talks about. In doing this, we'll talk about the Korean war, the Vietnam war, and the Central American war.

Everything I'm going to talk to you about is represented, one way or another, already in the public records. You can dig it all out for yourselves, without coming to hear me if you so chose. Books, based on information gotten out of the CIA under the freedom of information act, testimony before the Congress, hearings before the Senate Church committee, research by scholars, witness of people throughout the world who have been to these target areas that we'll be talking about. I want to emphasize that my own background is profoundly conservative. We come from South Texas, East Texas....

I was conditioned by my training, my marine corps training, and my background, to believe in everything they were saying about the cold war, and I took the job with great enthusiasm (in the CIA) to join the best and the brightest of the CIA, of our foreign service, to go out into the world, to join the struggle, to project American values and save the world for our brand of democracy. And I believed this. I went out and worked hard....

What I really got out of these 6 years in Africa was a sense ... that nothing we were doing in fact defended U.S. national security interests very much. We didn't have many national security interests in Bujumbura, Burundi, in the heart of Africa. I concluded that I just couldn't see the point.

We were doing things it seemed because we were there, because it was our function, we were bribing people, corrupting people, and not protecting the U.S. in any visible way. I had a chance to go drinking with this Larry Devlin, a famous CIA case officer who had overthrown Patrice Lumumba, and had him killed in 1960, back in the Congo. He was moving into the Africa division Chief. I talked to him in Addis Ababa at length one night, and he was giving me an explanation - I was telling him frankly, 'sir, you know, this stuff doesn't make any sense, we're not saving anybody from anything, and we are corrupting people, and everybody knows we're doing it, and that makes the U.S. look bad'.

And he said I was getting too big for my britches. He said, `you're trying to think like the people in the NSC back in Washington who have the big picture, who know what's going on in the world, who have all the secret information, and the experience to digest it. If they decide we should have someone in Bujumbura, Burundi, and that person should be you, then you should do your job, and wait until you have more experience, and you work your way up to that point, then you will understand national security, and you can make the big decisions. Now, get to work, and stop, you know, this philosophizing.'

And I said, `Aye-aye sir, sorry sir, a bit out of line sir'. It's a very powerful argument, our presidents use it on us. President Reagan has used it on the American people, saying, `if you knew what I know about the situation in Central America, you would understand why it's necessary for us to intervene.'

I went back to Washington, however, and I found that others shared my concern. A formal study was done in the State Department and published internally, highly classified, called the Macomber [sp?] report, concluding that the CIA had no business being in Africa for anything it was known to be doing, that our presence there was not justified, there were no national security interests that the CIA could address any better than the ambassador himself. We didn't need to have bribery and corruption as a tool for doing business in Africa at that time.

I went from ... a tour in Washington to Vietnam. And there, my career, and my life, began to get a little bit more serious. They assigned me a country. It was during the cease-fire, '73 to '75. There was no cease-fire. Young men were being slaughtered. I saw a slaughter. 300 young men that the South Vietnamese army ambushed. Their bodies brought in and laid out in a lot next to my compound. I was up-country in Tayninh. They were laid out next door, until the families could come and claim them and take them away for burial.

I thought about this. I had to work with the sadistic police chief. When I reported that he liked to carve people with knives in the CIA safe-house - when I reported this to my bosses, they said, `(1). The post was too important to close down. (2). They weren't going to get the man transferred or fired because that would make problems, political problems, and he was very good at working with us in the operations he worked on. (3). Therefore if I didn't have the stomach for the job, that they could transfer me.'

But they hastened to point out, if I did demonstrate a lack of `moral fiber' to handle working with the sadistic police chief, that I wouldn't get another good job in the CIA, it would be a mark against
my career.

So I kept the job, I closed the safe-house down, I told my staff that I didn't approve of that kind of activity, and I proceeded to work with him for the next 2 years, pretending that I had reformed him, and he didn't do this sort of thing anymore. The parallel is obvious with El Salvador today, where the CIA, the state department, works with the death squads.

They don't meet the death squads on the streets where they're actually chopping up people or laying them down on the street and running trucks over their heads. The CIA people in San Salvador meet the police chiefs, and the people who run the death squads, and they do liaise with them, they meet them beside the swimming pool of the villas. And it's a sophisticated, civilized kind of relationship. And they talk about their children, who are going to school at UCLA or Harvard and other schools, and they don't talk about the horrors of what's being done. They pretend like it isn't true.

What I ran into in addition to that was a corruption in the CIA and the intelligence business that made me question very seriously what it was all about, including what I was doing ... risking my life ... what I found was that the CIA, us, the case officers, were not permitted to report about the corruption in the South Vietnamese army....

Now, the corruption was so bad, that the S. Vietnamese army was a skeleton army. Colonels would let the troops go home if they would come in once a month and sign the pay vouchers so the colonel could pocket the money. Then he could sell half of the uniforms and boots and M-16's to the communist forces - that was their major supply, just as it is in El Salvador today. He could use half of the trucks to haul produce, half of the helicopters to haul heroin.

And the Army couldn't fight. And we lived with it, and we saw it, and there was no doubt - everybody talked about it openly. We could provide all kinds of proof, and they wouldn't let us report it. Now this was a serious problem because the south was attacked in the winter of 1975, and it collapsed like a big vase hit by a sledgehammer. And the U.S. was humiliated, and that was the dramatic end of our long involvement in Vietnam....

I had been designated as the task-force commander that would run this secret war [in Angola in 1975 and 1976].... and what I figured out was that in this job, I would sit on a sub-committee of the National Security Council, this office that Larry Devlin has told me about where they had access to all the information about Angola, about the whole world, and I would finally understand national security. And I couldn't resist the opportunity to know. I knew the CIA was not a worthwhile organization, I had learned that the hard way. But the question was where did the U.S. government fit into this thing, and I had a chance to see for myself in the next big secret war....

I wanted to know if wise men were making difficult decisions based on truly important, threatening information, threatening to our national security interests. If that had been the case, I still planned to get out of the CIA, but I would know that the system, the invisible government, our national security complex, was in fact justified and worth while. And so I took the job.... Suffice it to say I wouldn't be standing in front of you tonight if I had found these wise men making these tough decisions. What I found, quite frankly, was fat old men sleeping through sub-committee meetings of the NSC in which we were making decisions that were killing people in Africa. I mean literally. Senior ambassador Ed Mulcahy... would go to sleep in nearly every one of these meetings....

You can change the names in my book [about Angola] [13] and you've got Nicaragua.... the basic structure, all the way through including the mining of harbors, we addressed all of these issues. The point is that the U.S. led the way at every step of the escalation of the fighting. We said it was the Soviets and the Cubans that were doing it. It was the U.S. that was escalating the fighting. There would have been no war if we hadn't gone in first. We put arms in, they put arms in. We put advisors in, they answered with advisors. We put in Zairian para-commando battalions, they put in Cuban army troops. We brought in the S. African army, they brought in the Cuban army. And
they pushed us away. They blew us away because we were lying, we were covering ourselves with lies, and they were telling the truth. And it was not a war that we could fight. We didn't have interests there that should have been defended that way.

There was never a study run that evaluated the MPLA, FNLA and UNITA, the three movements in the country, to decide which one was the better one. The assistant secretary of state for African affairs, Nathaniel Davis, no bleeding-heart liberal (he was known by some people in the business as the butcher of Santiago), he said we should stay out of the conflict and work with whoever eventually won, and that was obviously the MPLA. Our consul in Luanda, Tom Killoran, vigorously argued that the MPLA was the best qualified to run the country and the friendliest to the U.S.




dalehileman
 
  1  
Reply Mon 3 Dec, 2012 01:57 pm
@JTT,
Quote:
The US has never, not once concerned itself with "the right thing to do"
Alas JTT perhaps a slight exaggeration. Today it's generally acknowledged for instance that my hero Roosevelt was right even though against majority and even somewhat underhanded

Much as with Obama and birth control, constitutionally a bit devious but conceivably rescuing us from eventual overpop with rampant factional wars, disease, starvation, crime, and state gridlock

Quote:
Count the number of brutal totalitarian right wing dictatorships the US has installed and supported.
Yes I know and that's always bothered me too. However as I implied we might have been misled while most of our hearts were in the right place. Few of us are as militant as the typical Eastern fanatic in such overwhelming numbers without the slightest chance of redemption
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Mon 3 Dec, 2012 02:46 pm
@dalehileman,
Quote:
Alas JTT perhaps a slight exaggeration. Today it's generally acknowledged for instance that my hero Roosevelt was right even though against majority and even somewhat underhanded
It was Churchill who sid that " Americans can always be counted n to do the right thing, after exhausting all other possibilities"
 

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