What Do Modern Secessionists Want?

As I said I will stand with President/General Grant who fought in the Mexican American war about how moral our actions happen to had been in 1845-46.

Next my point is that the so call true blue Americans are the ones threatening to leave the union that they pretend to care about and who get upset when the Federal government take sets to stop them from treating Mexican/Americans like they treated black Americans just 60 years ago.

If they would get their wish to withdrawn from the union in order that they can treat the non white sub-groups like **** once more, I would find it highly amusing if they would then find themselves on the other side in being mistreated after the Mexican army would overrun their independent states that after all were seized from Mexico.

Change the topic as it suits you.

Sorry I had not change my position concerning the bigots that are behind the secession movement at all and that who from the very birth of the US had been hiding behind the cry of state rights to allow them to keep or try to keep the Federal government from interfering with their mistreatments up to murdering of non whites.

Yes, it's all about the bigots you've decided are bad and not at all about the bigots (including yourself) who you think are not.

I appreciate that you you think you are a voice of undeniable truth, but you are actually a tool

Sure I am a tool but I know what it mean when someone cry state rights and had mean for all the history of the nation.

I guess you have proven whithout a doubt that racism exists in Arizona with regard to mexicans. :hats off to you:

I do not believe that secession is done for this reason in all the states that wish to secede, or all peoples including myself.

Give the reasons why you wish to secede and we will see if you are the rare one that is not a racist in one way or another.

Yes you are

Well, I am a rarity in and of itself. I am a unique individual often told that I am weird.

Exceptionalism cannot exist in normalism.

1) Educational systems are corrupted and broken due to recent federal involvment
2) My voice is less the more people there are in a voting process [large fed = small voice]
3) Federal government involved in policing world and does not concentrate on own affairs, I wish to seperate myself from it.
4) Hybrid health care that benefits the governmental controls and big corperate insurance profits instead of a coopertive healthcare ran and shared by members with governmental support in establishment.
5) Commerce laws that affect individuals that mandate fines to those who do not buy certain products and put people in jail for buying products that are not dangerous to the community such as canibus.
6) Lobbyists, including from unions and special groups, in the Federal goverment drown out the voice of the individual and big money is used to brain wash the community.
7) Bad decisions or unable to create valid decisions in budgeting the government causing our grade to drop from triple AAA status.
8) Bailing out of corporatations without regard to the many small businesses that failed... shows corportism in federal government.
9) Issuing controls on personal rights that really are none of the governments business. [Already Discussed] Washington state allowed gay marriage, but republicans in washington dc wish to prevent it nationally.
10) Affirmative action - Government forces schools and such to use a system that causes racial favortism toward minority races. I understand the concept of why it is needed but as long as it exists racism and hate toward the favored groups will thrive.
11) Free trade establishments that have damaged the economy.


etc...


I do not support the south or the north but I feel that if something drastic does not happen then the governement will continue on the wrong path.

I had yet to run into a local or state governments that is not in the control of special interests even more then the federal government.

Our AAA rating drop due to the game playing of the GOP members threatening the full faith and credit of the US in not raising the debt ceilings promptly and therefore causing fear we would default on our outstanding bonds. Yet we still are the reserve currency of the world with foreign investors more then willing to buy our bonds at very very low interest rates.

What kind of credit rating do you think the world would grant any of the border states as independent nations?

If you mean the auto industry for big business bail outs there was hundreds to thousands of small independent suppliers that would have gone belly up beside the big three and we would had needed to import all our cars from then on in.

The banks bail out was annoying cause by the GOP not maintaining oversight on the finance markets however there was no major economists that I know of that did not think that in order to not get a repeat of the 1929 meltdown we needed to pour funds into the banking sector at the time.

In any case how do you think small little nation states could deal with the world finance system or international companies/banks any better then the federal government does?

Next I had not seen most states doing a good job or putting in the resource into our educational system and there is nothing wrong with the Federal government putting in minimum standards all states need to meet at least.

All in all small nation states would be in a far poor position to deal with problems then the US and I can not see how dividing up the nation would be helpful in any way in meeting the demands of the world market place.

It is the fact that 50 states dealing with the problem differently gives us a testing ground to determine best practice. If one state finds something that works well it is likely that the rest will follow.

The federal government prevents change and innovation as it is constantly in deadlock and is putting too many restrictions on states. It is constantly compromising on these hybrid, progressive/conservative programs that benefit no one and barely work at all.

The problem with budgeting was not an issue with the AAA rating itself but with the fact taht they cannot come to a decision.

It is my hope that with the states moving away for better or worse. I will have somewhere to go that will be more in line with my particular politics and others will have somewhere else to go that fits them. As it is now the entire nation is forced into one political force that is good for almost no party.

If the two main parties where seperated, we can have the benefit of getting things done.

If history serves me right, not all the american car industries got bailed out. What is the fed doing to prevent this from happening again?
*****
It really doesn't matter with all this.
I am just feel hopeless with all our broken systems and just want a change.

I think your bias needs a little tuneup to understand that politics is messy, and not everybody can agree even with the rhetoric of the party - whether democrat or republican. It's a fact that "they all lie" during campaigns. That fact alone tells us something about our politics.

To create more confusion, the rhetoric of those running for office leans towards the center no matter which party is running for any office. Running on the extreme right or left only insures failure.

What do we get? A conglomeration of confused messages and actions.

Sorry we have that testing ground for the most part what we do not have is complete freedom now for bigots to take over a state government and treat US citizens as second class citizens due to the color of their skins or the language that they prefer to speak and so on.

We also limit to some degree big business from buying enough state legislators that the public welfare and safest suffer.

For example mining safest is not what it should be even under the federal government however can you picture the state of West Virgina enforcing coal mine safest rules that in any way annoy or cost the coal mine owners of that state any money?

Sorry but breaking up the US into 50 nation states would make almost all the problems we have now far far far worst.

History had shown time after time that states can be trusted even less then the national government.

Another example of that are some of the states this last election cycle under the control of one party trying to limit the voting rights of the poor that needed the Federal government court system to stop.

In some respects I have to admire you Bill; seeing that you attract equal mesaures of disdain from both the Right and the Left in this forum. In some sense this has to mean that you are partially on the right track and yet a train that travels between two lands can still derail.

For some reason you are obsessed with Jim Crow America. It's not, by any means, a period of which Americans should be proud, but in well over two centuries of existence this country has had many other low and high points, and everything isn't about the KKK.

Surprisingly, this obsession hasn't made you a darling of the Left in this forum, but there must be a reason and my recollection is that it has to do with a defense of rape or some such uber-macho position. I freely admit, though, that I can be wrong in this regard.

In any case it is rather strange that the political factions in this forum both agree that your posts are (at best) lacking in relevant substance.

[Having said this, the political factions are about 97% Liberal and 3% Conservative]

Actually, it's not at all peculiar that the conservatives in this forum don't find you a kindred spirit, as we are all for putting the black and/or brown man down, but why do the Libs hate you so?

Iconoclasts are, by a certain few, considered of value in and of themselves, but this doesn't mean they aren't crazy bug-eyed f*cks.

Sorry the issue is how you define rape and as I was a supporter of the ERA amendment in the 60s and women servicing in the military, as such I happen to consider women as adults with all the rights and dues of adulthood.

Daring to view women as adults I also view them having a duty to look after their own best interests even in the area of sexual relationships as any man have and therefore the idea that a woman can declare a consenting act of intercourse rape after the fact due to her placing herself under the voluntary influence of either alcohol or drugs and regretting the sex act the next day or the next week as silly as a man claiming rape under the same conditions.

See the posting on the rape thread of the poor guy who ended up facing a full military court martial for rape after a woman at a party jump in to a bed that he was sleeping in waking him up and beginning the sex acts to see how silly the idea of invalid consent can get.

The but should be that it is still ongoing in some states with the attempts voters suppression of the poor both in northern states and southern states under the control of the GOP and the going after of even full citizens of Mexican-American descent in some of the border states.

Only the Federal government have the means to limit such attempts.

Bias?

Poor use of a word; I agree.

Forcing a heatlhcare plan for all states to follow instead of 'enabling' the states and encouraging them to develop their own plans is not a recipe for testing and innovation.



I do not want them removed from union but to create a new one allowing them to maneuver and have a governmetn to guide them instead of force them. Give ultimatum's instead of yes/no's. The seceding gives the opportunity to create a new governing document from scratch that will allow for better government practices. Ensure basic rights belong to the people and not at all to governmetn, like marriage.

-Do you ever have a system taht just gets to complicated and no longer works and when things start breaking all you can do is replace it and start from scratch?

In the end when the rebuilt government comes about it will be corrupted from teh start by the idiots that put it together. We are all doomed to live as we are or suffer worse if there is seccession but what if it could be better? Honestly, part of me wish it to happen out of curiosity and so we can stop bickering and see who was really right. Maybe when all the destruction and choas has ended we can pick ourselves back up and learn from these events. The reality is that it cannot happen, will not happen, and will likely make things worse when the powerfull take advantage of a new born governmetn to utilize it as it sees fit.



*****

I think you are ignoring the fact that your comments in themselves contain bigotry toward the people of the south. You are no better than them if you wish them to suffer and die.

Research on health is shared not only in the US but around the world. It's not about encouraging states to develop their own plans.
On universal health care, almost all developed countries provide it except the US. It's not about state's rights; it's about American rights. We spend too much on defense; we can spend some money to protect American's health. That's a no-brainer for anyone with brains.