11
   

Why There Cannot Be Peace Between Israel and the Palestinians

 
 
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Mon 10 Dec, 2012 11:01 am
@Foofie,
Do you figure that you will always be a brain dead moron, Foof?

Possibly you have been doing a great caricature of an American.
Foofie
 
  1  
Reply Mon 10 Dec, 2012 11:35 am
@JTT,
JTT wrote:

Do you figure that you will always be a brain dead moron, Foof?

Possibly you have been doing a great caricature of an American.


You initially said, "zombie," not "moron." Just be quiet.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  0  
Reply Mon 10 Dec, 2012 06:38 pm
@JTT,
JTT wrote:
Pointing out the obvious, that the US is the biggest terrorist group on the planet, that the US has committed myriad war crimes does not reflect an anti-American bias. It is simple honesty, something y'all badly need to learn.


Hardly. The US has not targeted civilians in the past hundred years, so we have not engaged in terrorism (which requires the targeting of civilians).

We may have a handful of minor war crimes to our name, but nothing of the magnitude or amount that you falsely accuse us of.
reasoning logic
 
  1  
Reply Mon 10 Dec, 2012 06:53 pm
@oralloy,
Quote:
Hardly. The US has not targeted civilians in the past hundred years, so we have not engaged in terrorism (which requires the targeting of civilians).

We may have a handful of minor war crimes to our name, but nothing of the magnitude or amount that you falsely accuse us of.


Are you calling Rush a liar?


Quote. The Japanese surrendered. But it wasn't because there were negotiations between us and the emperor of Japan. It's because we wiped them out. You might have heard about this. We dropped a couple of nuclear bombs on them. I'm sure you've been taught that. We dropped a couple of nuclear bombs. You probably have been taught that we did this for the fun of it, 'cause we're mean-spirited extremists. But it was in a war when we dropped those bombs, and back in those days, you won wars by killing civilians. The same thing in Germany. When we bombed Germany, we were not bombing military targets. There wasn't any conflict resolution 101 back then. I know this is gonna be shocking news to some of you, but we actually -- and not just us. Everybody targeted civilians, and that's how you won a war, and the Japanese then surrendered and they signed the terms of surrender, and they also pledged to form a new government.
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Mon 10 Dec, 2012 07:01 pm
@oralloy,
Quote:
so we have not engaged in terrorism (which requires the targeting of civilians).


As is always the case, you don't know what you're talking about, Oralboy.

Quote:
Terrorism is defined in the Code of Federal Regulations as “the unlawful use of force and violence against persons or property to intimidate or coerce a government, the civilian population, or any segment thereof, in furtherance of political or social objectives” (28 C.F.R. Section 0.85).

...

International terrorism involves violent acts or acts dangerous to human life that are a violation of the criminal laws of the United States or any state, or that would be a criminal violation if committed within the jurisdiction of the United States or any state. These acts appear to be intended to intimidate or coerce a civilian population, influence the policy of a government by intimidation or coercion, or affect the conduct of a government by assassination or kidnapping. International terrorist acts occur outside the United States or transcend national boundaries in terms of the means by which they are accomplished, the persons they appear intended to coerce or intimidate, or the locale in which their perpetrators operate or seek asylum.



The US does all of those things regularly. The US has illegally invaded 200 times since its inception and most of those invasions were done to bend the particular country to the will of the US. That goes beyond terrorism into the realm of the most egregious of war crimes, armed aggression against a sovereign nation.


Quote:
Hardly. The US has not targeted civilians in the past hundred years,


The US fire bombed Japanese cities, directly targeting civilians. The US directly targeted Korean civilians, Cambodian civilians, Laotian civilians, Guatemalan civilians, Philippine civilians, Nicaraguan civilians, Vietnamese civilians, ... .

Quote:

War Crimes: ‘US targets civilians in Kandahar’

US-led forces in Afghanistan US-led foreign forces have once again been criticized for military operations that have led to death and destruction in war-ravaged Afghanistan.

A human rights group says civilian casualties have spiked since operations started in Kandahar province in early September.

The Afghan Rights Monitor (ARM) says the US-led campaign in Kandahar has destroyed or damaged hundreds of houses.

It says US-led NATO forces have used aerial bombings, hidden booby traps and mines in private homes.

According to the rights group, most of the attacks have been carried out in areas that hold about one-third of Kandahar province’s population.

Tens of thousands of Afghan and foreign troops have been fighting the Taliban in Kandahar province to flush militants out of the region.

The developments come as the US and its allies step up a bombing campaign in the troubled southern Afghanistan.

US-led foreign forces in Afghanistan are currently continuing with their massive military operation in the volatile region.

Witnesses have recently told Press TV that NATO forces have dropped more bombs on villages they assume Taliban militants are hiding in, inflicting extensive damage to civilian properties.

The Western military alliance says it is experimenting with a new powerful bomb during the operation.

More than one-hundred thousand Afghans have been killed since the US-led invasion of the country in 2001.

http://www.globalresearch.ca/war-crimes-us-targets-civilians-in-kandahar/21779



Quote:

Drone strikes kill, maim and traumatize too many civilians, U.S. study says
By the CNN Wire Staff
updated 8:33 PM EDT, Tue September 25, 2012

(CNN) -- U.S. drone strikes in Pakistan have killed far more people than the United States has acknowledged, have traumatized innocent residents and largely been ineffective, according to a new study released Tuesday.
The study by Stanford Law School and New York University's School of Law calls for a re-evaluation of the practice, saying the number of "high-level" targets killed as a percentage of total casualties is extremely low -- about 2%.
The report accuses Washington of misrepresenting drone strikes as "a surgically precise and effective tool that makes the U.S. safer," saying that in reality, "there is significant evidence that U.S. drone strikes have injured and killed civilians."
It also casts doubts on Washington's claims that drone strikes produce zero to few civilian casualties and alleges that the United States makes "efforts to shield the drone program from democratic accountability."

http://www.cnn.com/2012/09/25/world/asia/pakistan-us-drone-strikes/index.html
JTT
 
  2  
Reply Mon 10 Dec, 2012 07:52 pm
@oralloy,
Quote:
The US has not targeted civilians in the past hundred years,


Quote:

THE WAR BEHIND ME: VIETNAM VETERANS CONFRONT THE TRUTH ABOUT US WAR CRIMES IN VIETNAM

A letter from Robert Froehlke, secretary of the Army in the early 1970s, arrived in my mailbox a few weeks after the release of my book on U.S. war crimes in Vietnam last year. Mr. Froehlke wrote that he had read the book and didn’t enjoy it. He assured me that I should not take this personally, as he could not imagine reading a book on the Vietnam War and enjoying it.

“But your facts are correct,” he said, “and you can’t ask for more than that.”

The facts in The War Behind Me were drawn from a declassified Army Staff archive of reports on U.S. atrocities, and from interviews with the Pentagon officials who compiled the records and combat veterans named in them. The picture that emerged contrasted sharply with the military’s official version of the facts. The Army then and since maintained that My Lai was an aberration and that, while other atrocities occurred, they were “isolated incidents” not indicative of a systemic problem.

Claims to the contrary were disparaged as enemy propaganda The existence of an alternate reality in the Army’s own files remained a closely held secret long after the war ended. Finally declassified around 1990, the files lingered in obscurity on the storeroom shelves of the National Archives and Records Administration for another decade, until a handful of scholars and journalists took notice. I learned about the collection in 2005 from Nick Turse, who had analyzed the documents for his dissertation at Columbia University. Over the next year and a half, we entered data from the files into spreadsheets, conducted scores of interviews, visited Vietnam and published a two-part series in the Los Angeles Times.

Our research found that Army investigators had secretly confirmed cases involving 300 or more incidents, including massacres, murders, torture, mutilation of corpses, indiscriminate fire in civilian areas, wanton destruction of property and cover-ups. Yet the public was not told of the findings.

Among the cases was an atrocity that took place on February 8, 1968, a month before the My Lai massacre. A company from the 35th Infantry Regiment entered a tiny rural hamlet in Quang Nam province, gathered 19 civilians – babies, children, women and an elderly man – and executed them.

A medic, Jamie Henry, reported the massacre as soon as he returned stateside, but the Army investigator didn’t believe him. Henry repeated his allegations at a press conference in Los Angeles in early 1970. This time, Criminal Investigation Division called him, and he provided a detailed, 10-page sworn statement. But as far as he knew, the Army did nothing with the information.

The declassified records show differently: CID contacted 100 members of his company over the next three and a half years, confirming the massacre and identifying several suspects. The Army never told the public about its findings, and no one was prosecuted. Henry first learned of the investigation and outcome in 2005, when we contacted him.

The Army Staff archive also made cryptic mention of an egregious case of torture that had never come to light. Our reporting filled out the details: A dozen members of a military intelligence detachment in Binh Dinh province wrote to the Army inspector general in spring 1969 to report that U.S. interrogators were abusing detainees. A major from the inspector general’s office threatened the letter-writers with charges, so they shut up. Much later, Army investigators looking into another case came across evidence of torture by the unit. They ultimately concluded that interrogators had participated in torture over a 19-month period in 1968-69. Common techniques included electric shock delivered through field phone wires, water rag (similar to water-boarding), sticks and fists. The report identified 20 U.S. suspects, including eight who admitted to abusing prisoners. No one was prosecuted, and the findings were covered up.

The outcomes of those cases were not at all unusual. I analyzed the fate of 191 suspects in the most serious of the confirmed cases – those that involved violence against people. Fifty-two were tried by courts martial, twenty-three were convicted and fourteen were sentenced to confinement. Half spent less than a year in confinement. Over and again, the light or nonexistent penalties reinforced the “mere gook rule”: the attitude, ingrained from boot camp onward, that Vietnamese were less than human.

Among those convicted was Sgt. Roy Bumgarner, Jr. In 1969, he executed two teenage duck-herders and an irrigator as they stood in a rice paddy near their homes in Binh Dinh province. Afterwards, he ordered one of his men to detonate a grenade by their heads, dropped weapons around their remains and reported three dead enemy combatants. (We were told that he was engaged in a “body count” competition at the time.) Angry villagers demanded an investigation. Bumgarner was tried by court martial and convicted. His sentence for a triple murder: A $582 fine and reduction in rank, but no prison time. The Army allowed him to re-up several months later, and he remained in Vietnam until the end of the war. He served as an Army instructor at Fort Jackson before retiring in 1981. He died in 2005 and was buried at Arlington National Cemetery.

The files also summarized more than 500 allegations from cases closed as “unfounded,” “unsubstantiated” or “due to insufficient evidence.” Some reflected paper-thin investigations. Others – roughly one quarter – included allegations that in fact had been confirmed by investigators. For example, CID confirmed a report that three GIs had tied a corpse to the fender of their truck in 1970, and they received reprimands. Yet the case was closed as “unsubstantiated.” A former top official at the Criminal Investigation Division Command attributed the spotty work product to an under-trained, overwhelmed and demoralized staff.

Taken as a whole, the records offered an extraordinary window into conditions and policies that led to atrocities: free-fire-zones, search-and-destroy operations, indiscriminate use of firepower, and body count, which measured results and meted out rewards through a tally of corpses. The narratives reflected a failure of leadership on the ground. Yet we found little soul-searching by military leaders in the files. Neither punishment nor deterrence seemed to be front-burner concerns. Records and interviews pointed instead to a cynical motive: damage control.

The Army Staff appointed to small group of officers to begin compiling the records shortly after Seymour Hersh’s expose on the My Lai massacre in late 1969. “We were following the president’s orders,” explained Jared Schopper, an aide to Gen. William Westmoreland when he served as Army chief of staff.

The White House wanted to know about any other potential scandals in the offing and to keep the Army “off the front page.” So the Army Staff set up a system to collect and monitor war crimes allegations that surfaced at CID, in congressional correspondence, in the media or at public forums. Schopper said they wanted to make sure the Army could say that every allegation was investigated as required under the Geneva Conventions. I asked Schopper what came of the investigations. “Generally no action was taken,” he said.

And the ultimate fate of the files?

“I suppose they ended up in the reservoir of official documents that no longer have viability”.

Other former Army Staff officers characterized their efforts as an elaborate protect-your-rear operation for the administration. Over five years, they amassed an estimated 9,000 pages of evidence on war crimes, representing the largest compilation of government records on U.S. war crimes in Vietnam. Yet it is by no means a full accounting. Many atrocities were never reported. In that sense, the archive offers a small, albeit invaluable, window into a much bigger problem. Bernd Greiner, a historian at the Hamburg Institute for Social Research, published the first book on the war-crime files in 2007. The book, written in German, reached a similar conclusion:

“Just how many atrocities were committed in the course of the Vietnam War is a question to which there presumably will never be a definitive answer. But it is clear that such crimes were by no means singular occurrences, nor where they the acts of a few individual perpetrators of excessive violence.” See Krieg ohne Fronten: Die USA in Vietnam (Hamburg: Hamburger Edition, 2007).

There is a private letter in the file sent to Gen. Westmoreland in 1970 by an anonymous soldier from the 9th Infantry Division that attempted to convey the scale of unreported war-crimes in a single year in the Mekong Delta. He wrote that troops had deliberately killed hundreds of civilians and reported them as enemy KIAs in response to pressure from their commanders for a higher body count. He described rampant abuse of the rules of engagement:

“Number one killer in the 9th Div, was the rule that said shoot if they run. Not just prisoners or suspects, or guys with weapons, but anybody…And lots of them did…The gunships and loaches [helicopters] would hover over a guy in the fields till he got scared and fun and they’d zap him…We always had to report how many we killed and what they were doing, and I know I heard ‘taking evasive action’ more than a hundred times…Most of all the times we never found weapons or nothing on them,” he wrote.

Snipers shot “any Vietnamese they’d see at long range in the day time…No weapons, no VC documents, just a dead Vietnamese at about 300 or 400 yards who is automatically a VC just as soon as he falls.” Troops would “detain a suspect,” usually a civilian, to walk ahead of them to detonate land mines and booby traps, he wrote. Artillery units bombarded hamlets in free-fire zones, even when commanders knew they were occupied by women and children. The dead went into the body count.

“In case you don’t think I mean lots of Vietnamese got killed this way, I can give you some idea how many. A battalion would kill maybe 15 to 20 a day or 1200 to 1500 a month, easy. (One battalion claimed almost 1000 body counts one month!) If I am only 10% right, and believe me it’s lots more, then I am trying to tell you about 120-150 murders, or a My Lai each month for over a year”.

The letters caught the attention of the secretary of the Army, then Stanley Resor, who asked the general counsel’s office to evaluate them. A memo in response said the writer seemed sincere and his concerns about body count credible. But Army officials decided against investigating the allegations. CID instead dispatched investigators to find the writer before he contacted the press or a member of Congress. The anonymous soldier sent two more letters before the chief of CID announced in the fall of 1971 that his staff had tentatively identified the writer. Westmoreland ordered the matter closed, and the file ended there. Because CID never opened an official investigation, the letter and its allegations were not included in the Army Staff’s official cases or statistics.

The next year, in 1972, Newsweek published an investigation by war correspondent Kevin Buckley that found “thousands of Vietnamese civilians” were “killed deliberately” by 9th Division forces during Speedy Express, a six-month combat operation in 1968. “The death toll there made the My Lai massacre look trifling by comparison,” he wrote. Buckley based his report on hospital visits and interviews with military readers and residents.

We brought up the letters in our interview with Resor, who was 89 when we spoke. He said he didn’t remember them. He also said he didn’t remember that the Army Staff had assigned a special team to compile war-crime allegations. He could recall only a handful of high-profile atrocities besides the My Lai massacre. We attributed his forgetfulness to his age.

Froehlke replaced Resor as secretary of the Army in summer 1971. He too didn’t remember the war-crime team or the letters. But he recalled walking in on a heated debate over body count at the time he took office. He wasn’t a fan, believing body count encouraged lying and exaggeration. I asked if he was aware of the more lethal implications – that civilians were being killed to pad the numbers?

“Yes, it was raised, and almost out of frustration there was never anything done. Other than orders stating the obvious: In body count you will not take civilian lives. But it was hard to follow through”.

As for the archive that the Army Staff compiled, Mr. Froehlke said he may not remember the war-crime reports but he was quite sure of their fate: “To my knowledge he [Westmoreland] did nothing about them. By ‘to my knowledge’ I mean he took no action.”

[See, the following for source]

http://able2know.org/topic/203471-1#top

0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  0  
Reply Mon 10 Dec, 2012 08:33 pm
@JTT,
JTT wrote:
Oralloy wrote:
Hardly. The US has not targeted civilians in the past hundred years,


The US fire bombed Japanese cities, directly targeting civilians. The US directly targeted Korean civilians, Cambodian civilians, Laotian civilians, Guatemalan civilians,


Nope. The US did not target civilians in any of those wars.



JTT wrote:
Philippine civilians, Nicaraguan civilians,


Pass on these two. I'm not sure enough of the details to give a firm statement.



JTT wrote:
Vietnamese civilians,


Nope. No civilians targeted by the US in that war.



Quote:
War Crimes: ‘US targets civilians in Kandahar’


We did no such thing.





A website that has never once said anything even remotely truthful.



Quote:
Drone strikes kill, maim and traumatize too many civilians, U.S. study says
By the CNN Wire Staff
updated 8:33 PM EDT, Tue September 25, 2012

(CNN) -- U.S. drone strikes in Pakistan have killed far more people than the United States has acknowledged, have traumatized innocent residents and largely been ineffective, according to a new study released Tuesday.
The study by Stanford Law School and New York University's School of Law calls for a re-evaluation of the practice, saying the number of "high-level" targets killed as a percentage of total casualties is extremely low -- about 2%.
The report accuses Washington of misrepresenting drone strikes as "a surgically precise and effective tool that makes the U.S. safer," saying that in reality, "there is significant evidence that U.S. drone strikes have injured and killed civilians."
It also casts doubts on Washington's claims that drone strikes produce zero to few civilian casualties and alleges that the United States makes "efforts to shield the drone program from democratic accountability."

http://www.cnn.com/2012/09/25/world/asia/pakistan-us-drone-strikes/index.html


Nothing there about targeting civilians.

If you're interested in that study, I linked to it at the beginning of this thread:

http://able2know.org/topic/198633-1
oralloy
 
  -1  
Reply Mon 10 Dec, 2012 08:46 pm
@reasoning logic,
reasoning logic wrote:
Oralloy wrote:
Hardly. The US has not targeted civilians in the past hundred years, so we have not engaged in terrorism (which requires the targeting of civilians).

We may have a handful of minor war crimes to our name, but nothing of the magnitude or amount that you falsely accuse us of.


Are you calling Rush a liar?


Quote. The Japanese surrendered. But it wasn't because there were negotiations between us and the emperor of Japan. It's because we wiped them out. You might have heard about this. We dropped a couple of nuclear bombs on them. I'm sure you've been taught that. We dropped a couple of nuclear bombs. You probably have been taught that we did this for the fun of it, 'cause we're mean-spirited extremists. But it was in a war when we dropped those bombs, and back in those days, you won wars by killing civilians. The same thing in Germany. When we bombed Germany, we were not bombing military targets. There wasn't any conflict resolution 101 back then. I know this is gonna be shocking news to some of you, but we actually -- and not just us. Everybody targeted civilians, and that's how you won a war, and the Japanese then surrendered and they signed the terms of surrender, and they also pledged to form a new government.


The term "liar" includes an intent to deceive. Better to call him mistaken.

When we bombed both Germany and Japan, we were trying to destroy military targets.

Regarding Hiroshima and Nagasaki:

Hiroshima was a huge military center, filled with tens of thousands of Japanese soldiers.

Nagasaki was an industrial center that held huge weapons factories.
JTT
 
  2  
Reply Mon 10 Dec, 2012 08:53 pm
@oralloy,
Quote:
Among the cases was an atrocity that took place on February 8, 1968, a month before the My Lai massacre. A company from the 35th Infantry Regiment entered a tiny rural hamlet in Quang Nam province, gathered 19 civilians – babies, children, women and an elderly man – and executed them.

A medic, Jamie Henry, reported the massacre as soon as he returned stateside, but the Army investigator didn’t believe him. Henry repeated his allegations at a press conference in Los Angeles in early 1970. This time, Criminal Investigation Division called him, and he provided a detailed, 10-page sworn statement. But as far as he knew, the Army did nothing with the information.

The declassified records show differently: CID contacted 100 members of his company over the next three and a half years, confirming the massacre and identifying several suspects. The Army never told the public about its findings, and no one was prosecuted. Henry first learned of the investigation and outcome in 2005, when we contacted him.
oralloy
 
  1  
Reply Mon 10 Dec, 2012 09:39 pm
@JTT,
Quote:
Among the cases was an atrocity that took place on February 8, 1968, a month before the My Lai massacre. A company from the 35th Infantry Regiment entered a tiny rural hamlet in Quang Nam province, gathered 19 civilians – babies, children, women and an elderly man – and executed them.

A medic, Jamie Henry, reported the massacre as soon as he returned stateside, but the Army investigator didn’t believe him. Henry repeated his allegations at a press conference in Los Angeles in early 1970. This time, Criminal Investigation Division called him, and he provided a detailed, 10-page sworn statement. But as far as he knew, the Army did nothing with the information.

The declassified records show differently: CID contacted 100 members of his company over the next three and a half years, confirming the massacre and identifying several suspects. The Army never told the public about its findings, and no one was prosecuted. Henry first learned of the investigation and outcome in 2005, when we contacted him.


If that's true, it would be the act of rogue war criminals, not the result something the United States government ordered them to do.

Now, if you want to say we don't do enough to prosecute our war criminals, I can agree with that (though we also don't do enough to prosecute war crimes committed against us).

I would support greater efforts to prosecute such war crimes (both committed by the US and committed against the US).

But that does not make the US as a whole (or even our government) responsible for these acts. The people responsible are the war criminals themselves.
JTT
 
  2  
Reply Mon 10 Dec, 2012 10:00 pm
@oralloy,
Quote:
If that's true, it would be the act of rogue war criminals, not the result something the United States government ordered them to do.


Quote:
Taken as a whole, the records offered an extraordinary window into conditions and policies that led to atrocities: free-fire-zones, search-and-destroy operations, indiscriminate use of firepower, and body count, which measured results and meted out rewards through a tally of corpses. The narratives reflected a failure of leadership on the ground. Yet we found little soul-searching by military leaders in the files. Neither punishment nor deterrence seemed to be front-burner concerns. Records and interviews pointed instead to a cynical motive: damage control.


Quote:
The Army Staff appointed to small group of officers to begin compiling the records shortly after Seymour Hersh’s expose on the My Lai massacre in late 1969. “We were following the president’s orders,” explained Jared Schopper, an aide to Gen. William Westmoreland when he served as Army chief of staff.

The White House wanted to know about any other potential scandals in the offing and to keep the Army “off the front page.” So the Army Staff set up a system to collect and monitor war crimes allegations that surfaced at CID, in congressional correspondence, in the media or at public forums. Schopper said they wanted to make sure the Army could say that every allegation was investigated as required under the Geneva Conventions. I asked Schopper what came of the investigations. “Generally no action was taken,” he said.

And the ultimate fate of the files?

“I suppose they ended up in the reservoir of official documents that no longer have viability”.

Other former Army Staff officers characterized their efforts as an elaborate protect-your-rear operation for the administration. Over five years, they amassed an estimated 9,000 pages of evidence on war crimes, representing the largest compilation of government records on U.S. war crimes in Vietnam. Yet it is by no means a full accounting. Many atrocities were never reported. In that sense, the archive offers a small, albeit invaluable, window into a much bigger problem. Bernd Greiner, a historian at the Hamburg Institute for Social Research, published the first book on the war-crime files in 2007. The book, written in German, reached a similar conclusion:

“Just how many atrocities were committed in the course of the Vietnam War is a question to which there presumably will never be a definitive answer. But it is clear that such crimes were by no means singular occurrences, nor where they the acts of a few individual perpetrators of excessive violence.” See Krieg ohne Fronten: Die USA in Vietnam (Hamburg: Hamburger Edition, 2007).

There is a private letter in the file sent to Gen. Westmoreland in 1970 by an anonymous soldier from the 9th Infantry Division that attempted to convey the scale of unreported war-crimes in a single year in the Mekong Delta. He wrote that troops had deliberately killed hundreds of civilians and reported them as enemy KIAs in response to pressure from their commanders for a higher body count. He described rampant abuse of the rules of engagement:

“Number one killer in the 9th Div, was the rule that said shoot if they run. Not just prisoners or suspects, or guys with weapons, but anybody…And lots of them did…The gunships and loaches [helicopters] would hover over a guy in the fields till he got scared and fun and they’d zap him…We always had to report how many we killed and what they were doing, and I know I heard ‘taking evasive action’ more than a hundred times…Most of all the times we never found weapons or nothing on them,” he wrote.

Snipers shot “any Vietnamese they’d see at long range in the day time…No weapons, no VC documents, just a dead Vietnamese at about 300 or 400 yards who is automatically a VC just as soon as he falls.” Troops would “detain a suspect,” usually a civilian, to walk ahead of them to detonate land mines and booby traps, he wrote. Artillery units bombarded hamlets in free-fire zones, even when commanders knew they were occupied by women and children. The dead went into the body count.

“In case you don’t think I mean lots of Vietnamese got killed this way, I can give you some idea how many. A battalion would kill maybe 15 to 20 a day or 1200 to 1500 a month, easy. (One battalion claimed almost 1000 body counts one month!) If I am only 10% right, and believe me it’s lots more, then I am trying to tell you about 120-150 murders, or a My Lai each month for over a year”.
JTT
 
  2  
Reply Mon 10 Dec, 2012 10:01 pm
@oralloy,
See,

http://able2know.org/topic/203471-1#top
0 Replies
 
wmwcjr
 
  1  
Reply Mon 10 Dec, 2012 11:43 pm
@oralloy,
While not ignoring terrible wrongs done by the U.S. (which should be rightly condemned), have you noticed that JTT has never condemned Communism -- which has managed to slaughter 97 million people in less time than a century? Oh, well ... Neutral
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Mon 10 Dec, 2012 11:52 pm
@wmwcjr,
wmwcjr wrote:

While not ignoring terrible wrongs done by the U.S. (which should be rightly condemned), have you noticed that JTT has never condemned Communism -- which has managed to slaughter 97 million people in less time than a century? Oh, well ... Neutral

had not noticed, but that fits in with my current theory than he is Venezuelan....
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 Dec, 2012 06:18 am
@wmwcjr,
Quote:
While not ignoring terrible wrongs done by the U.S. (which should be rightly condemned), have you noticed that JTT has never condemned Communism -- which has managed to slaughter 97 million people in less time than a century? Oh, well ...


Haven't you noticed that none of you actually do condemn the terrible wrongs done by the US, Wm? It's euphemism after euphemism. You allow numerous people to make phony excuses for these "terrible wrongs" and you never say a thing.

It's the US that claims to be the beacon of hope. It's the US that constantly points the finger at others for doing the things that the US leads in doing.

I condemn the slaughter of any people by any group. But "Communism", come on. That's as silly as saying "Capitalism" should be condemned for slaughtering people. The US does a tremendous amount of business with communist countries. Those communist countries haven't in the last ten years launched illegal invasions against sovereign nations.

0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 Dec, 2012 06:26 am
@hawkeye10,
Quote:
but that fits in with my current theory than[sic] he is Venezuelan....


Yet another country that the US abused, that the US stole from. You can't open your mouths without sticking your big Imperialist foot into it.
0 Replies
 
mysteryman
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 Dec, 2012 02:38 pm
jtt, why did you limit it to the last 10 years?
reasoning logic
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 Dec, 2012 05:53 pm
@oralloy,
Quote:
When we bombed both Germany and Japan, we were trying to destroy military targets.

Regarding Hiroshima and Nagasaki:

Hiroshima was a huge military center, filled with tens of thousands of Japanese soldiers.

Nagasaki was an industrial center that held huge weapons factories.


We all have a poor understanding of moral philosophy in my opinion.

It is one of my favorite subjects even though I know I can be wrong in my thinking.
If we were to apply your reasoning to say the Israel Palestinian problem would you think that it would be moral if say the Palestinians had nuclear power and dropped a couple of nuclear bombs on Israel military targets? 2 nuclear weapons in Israel, What would that be like?

The Palestinians have been occupied and have been losing land, is this not a time of war for them and if they take out, "say the airstrips that the planes take of from Israel which bomb them, would this be immoral on their part?
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 Dec, 2012 06:39 pm
@mysteryman,
Feel free to open it up to any time frame you wish, MM.
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Wed 12 Dec, 2012 07:19 pm
@hawkeye10,
He/She is hardly so exotic.
0 Replies
 
 

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