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Why There Cannot Be Peace Between Israel and the Palestinians

 
 
reasoning logic
 
  1  
Reply Sun 18 Nov, 2012 04:46 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Quote:
Why do you keep pounding the same topic when you've already admitted that the Wiki post proved what was said?


Just because I agree with the Wiki post does not mean that I have a good understanding of what is taking place. Sorry if I am skeptical of my own understandings at times. I personally think that it helps me to be less bias and not to accept any propaganda that is fed to me.

Quote:
You're a ****'g bore; give it up! You are not "logical" by any sense of that word.


I never claimed to be logical by any sense I just enjoy trying to understand logic, reasoning logic happens to be my initials RL
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sun 18 Nov, 2012 05:00 pm
No problem, rl, you are now on my Ignore list.

I have no patience for "stupid."
reasoning logic
 
  1  
Reply Sun 18 Nov, 2012 05:05 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Cool I have another religious nut ignoring me. Wink

Live stream.

0 Replies
 
InfraBlue
 
  2  
Reply Sun 18 Nov, 2012 05:12 pm
@mysteryman,
mysteryman wrote:

So how is someone born 20 years ago a refugee of a war fought over 60 years ago?


Because the Zionist have refused to comply with their obligations in regard to the refugees. The first generation's rights do not end with them, otherwise that would void the subsequent generations' rights to that land. Again, your question is moot, the only reason you ask it is because of the Zionists recalcitrance.

The oppression of the refugees and other Palestinians and the violence perpetrated in the name thereof is the direct consequence of the Zionists creation and maintenance of an ethnocentric state "for the Jews."
InfraBlue
 
  2  
Reply Sun 18 Nov, 2012 05:16 pm
@mysteryman,
mysteryman wrote:

And the same question can be asked of the Israelis.
I don't support either side in this fight.


So why are all of your questions critical of the Palestinians and not of the Zionists?

What criticisms do you have in regard to the Zionists' discrimination and oppression of the Palestinian peoples?

0 Replies
 
InfraBlue
 
  2  
Reply Sun 18 Nov, 2012 11:27 pm
@reasoning logic,
reasoning logic wrote:

I am not saying that this is accurate history but I thought you might care to check it out for yourself.
I think that your knowledge of economics is better that mine but do you think you have a better understanding of this crises than this intellectual artist does?


This intellectual's very premise is morally dubious in regard to his assertion that there was plenty of room in Palestine for separate states.

The only reason that the whole idea of separate states ever came up was because of the Zionists' insistence of a state "for the Jews" which is informed by the European ethnocentric nationalist ideologies of the 19th and early 20th centuries. Ironically, these are the very same ideologies that were pursued by the Zionists' own oppressors: the Nazis. This intellectual completely ignores this fact. If this is because of genuine ignorance, then he isn't very intellectual. If he is aware of the origins of the Zionist ideology that founds the state of Israel, then he is being disingenuous and devious.

In the whole of Palestine during the time that this intellectual refers the Palestinian peoples inhabited the entirety of Palestine. Even the areas that were designated for the so called Jewish state had a majority of Palestinian inhabitants. The ideal of splitting Palestine along ethnic lines in light of this fact is morally bankrupt.

This intellectual presents a series of non-sequiturs in his argument such as assertions of underpopulation and underdevelopment, the oppression of the Palestinians by the Ottoman Empire, and the Balfour Declaration. Perceived underpopulation and underdevelopment does not justify the oppression of a people. The oppression of the Palestinian peoples at the hands of the Ottoman Empire, as well, does not justify their oppression at the hands of the Zionists. Needless to say, the Balfour Declaration hardly justifies the Zionists’ oppression of the Palestinian peoples. The British were remiss in their disregard for the rights of the Palestinians when it made that contradictory promise to the Zionists while at the same time it made similar promises to the Arabs through the McMahon-Hussein Correspondence, and implications through the Sykes-Picot Agreement.

Our intellectual glosses over the discrimination that the Palestinians experienced at the hands of the Zionist immigrants which lead to the former's rejection of increased immigration by the latter, and presents it as mere symptoms of anti-Semitism. The Zionists themselves recognized the discrimination and ill treatment that they dealt the indigenous Palestinians and recognized that this was to be a cause for contention and conflict between the two populations.

Ahad Ha'am widely regarded as the father of spiritual Zionism wrote as early as 1891 that:

"[The Jewish settlers] treat the Arabs with hostility and cruelty, trespass unjustly, beat them shamelessly for no sufficient reason, and even take pride in doing so. The Jews were slaves in the land of their Exile, and suddenly they found themselves with unlimited freedom, wild freedom that ONLY exists in a land like Turkey. This sudden change has produced in their hearts an inclination towards repressive tyranny, as always happens when slave rules." 'Ahad Ha'Am warned: "We are used to thinking of the Arabs as primitive men of the desert, as a donkey-like nation that neither sees nor understands what is going around it. But this is a GREAT ERROR. The Arab, like all sons of Sham, has sharp and crafty mind . . . Should time come when life of our people in Palestine imposes to a smaller or greater extent on the natives, they WILL NOT easily step aside."

In 1914 he wrote:

"'[the Zionists] wax angry towards those who remind them that there is still another people in Eretz Yisrael that has been living there and does not intend at all to leave its place. In a future when this ILLUSION will have been torn from their hearts and they will look with open eyes upon the reality as it is, they will certainly understand how important this question is and how great our duty to work for its solution."

Our intellectual proceeds to fall back onto Zionist propaganda in regard to the wars between 1947 and 1948 what with references to the invasion of Israel by five Arab armies and "a war of extermination" and "a momentous massacre" attributed to the Arabs. What our intellectual fails to mention was the reason for this "invasion." The Palestinians were fighting a civil war in Palestine against the Zionists who were implementing their policy of "transfer." The Zionist forces perpetrated the ethnic cleansing of several Arab villages to remove as much of the Arab population as possible from areas that came under their control. Large numbers of Arabs fled these areas, and this is what gave rise to the refugee problem in Palestine and the rest of the region. It was after the success of this policy of ethnic cleansing that the Zionists realized the public relations disaster it would present if it were allowed to continue to the end, and summarily ceased its implementation. Less than one third of the population of Palestinians remained in the areas that the Zionists seized.

Turning to the post war situation, our intellectual points to the fact that Jordan and Egypt took over the areas that the Zionists hadn't taken over--the West Bank and Gaza Strip, respectively--and made the assertion that the Palestinians didn't clamor for a separate state. Actually, the situation was more complicated than that. The various Palestinian paramilitary forces that had fought the Zionists in Israel began to challenge the monarchical rulers, the Hashemites, in Jordan. Between 1970 and 1971 the Jordanian regime defeated these paramilitary forces and eventually expelled them. Later these forces coalesced into the PLO and gained the recognition of Jordan and the Arab League as the sole representative of the Palestinian people.

The error of the Palestinian leadership was the incitement to violence that carries to this very day, and the refusal to compromise in the face of the irreversible situation in regard to Jewish immigration to Palestine by rejecting the White Paper of 1939, and their disastrous decision to enlist the help of Nazi Germany in attempting to rid Palestine of the repressive rule of the British in the name of the advancement of the Zionist project, the creation of an exclusivist state "for the Jews."
0 Replies
 
InfraBlue
 
  1  
Reply Sun 18 Nov, 2012 11:34 pm
@Foofie,
Foofie wrote:

InfraBlue wrote:

Why should Israel--a state that in order to exist must necessarily discriminate against and oppress the Palestinian peoples--be allowed to exist?


Perhaps, because Christian Europe (much larger than Israel) was allowed to exist in its discrimination and oppression of the Jewish people. I won't even mention that it ended in the Holocaust which is the immediate cause for the modern state of Israel.

Why don't you ask some Europeans if they want to have six million Jewish Israelis emigrate to their respective country?


We've already discussed your moral bankruptcy. Please consult your derelict mother in this regard.
InfraBlue
 
  1  
Reply Sun 18 Nov, 2012 11:39 pm
@Foofie,
Foofie wrote:

InfraBlue wrote:

The crux of this discrimination and oppression is the state of Israel's insistence that Israel/Palestine belongs to "the Jews" to the detriment of the Palestinian peoples in those lands.


Sort of like Texas belongs to the U.S. and not Mexico.


Yours is a false analogy. The US does not pursue an ethnocentric ideology, and as such does not deny human rights to the people of Mexican descent in Texas, and even allows immigration from Mexico into the US.
Foofie
 
  0  
Reply Mon 19 Nov, 2012 11:39 am
@InfraBlue,
InfraBlue wrote:

The oppression of the refugees and other Palestinians and the violence perpetrated in the name thereof is the direct consequence of the Zionists creation and maintenance of an ethnocentric state "for the Jews."


There are no other countries that have official state religions? Not so.
0 Replies
 
Foofie
 
  0  
Reply Mon 19 Nov, 2012 11:42 am
@InfraBlue,
InfraBlue wrote:

We've already discussed your moral bankruptcy. Please consult your derelict mother in this regard.


Well, you are maintaining a civil discourse, young man.
0 Replies
 
Foofie
 
  0  
Reply Mon 19 Nov, 2012 11:46 am
@InfraBlue,
InfraBlue wrote:

Foofie wrote:

InfraBlue wrote:

The crux of this discrimination and oppression is the state of Israel's insistence that Israel/Palestine belongs to "the Jews" to the detriment of the Palestinian peoples in those lands.


Sort of like Texas belongs to the U.S. and not Mexico.


Yours is a false analogy. The US does not pursue an ethnocentric ideology, and as such does not deny human rights to the people of Mexican descent in Texas, and even allows immigration from Mexico into the US.


If Texans today appear to appreciate their Spanish roots of Tijeras that is not the historical attitude. Many of the "Anglos" had a contempt for anything Spanish in a prior era. So, now Anglo Texans can be thought of as angels with cowboy boots, so to speak, in my opinion.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 19 Nov, 2012 12:14 pm
@Foofie,
Foofie, You really don't know American history. FYI, anglos had contempt for anglos. That's a fact.
Foofie
 
  -1  
Reply Mon 19 Nov, 2012 12:16 pm
@cicerone imposter,
cicerone imposter wrote:

Foofie, You really don't know American history. FYI, anglos had contempt for anglos. That's a fact.


I guess you are the one to know, Mr. Anglo.
0 Replies
 
reasoning logic
 
  1  
Reply Mon 19 Nov, 2012 04:06 pm
@InfraBlue,
I just wanted to say thank you for the above post of yours that was commented at me. I truly am striving to find the truth and it does seem that you shared some of it with me and you seemed to try and add a little non bias to the end of your post or should I say you recognized blame on both sides?

I could be wrong but I have an understanding of human behavior that helps me to not stereotype all people, this includes Palestinians and Jews but I do realize your point when you talk about Zionist Extreme Jews.

I will be honest and I thought that I was sharing a different artist with you all but I was mistaken

The artist I shared came from this so called source. "Videos from Encounter Books, America's Premier Intellectual Conservative Imprint."
You said that he may have been being dishonest but I question if you might think that the source has an agenda and it is not the interest of us all?


This was the artist that I was meaning to share and by the way the speaker is not him "he is only the artist in all the videos that I have seen.

0 Replies
 
reasoning logic
 
  1  
Reply Mon 19 Nov, 2012 04:12 pm
@InfraBlue,
Quote:
Yours is a false analogy. The US does not pursue an ethnocentric ideology, and as such does not deny human rights to the people of Mexican descent in Texas, and even allows immigration from Mexico into the US.


I do respect what you share but I still see our nation as an immoral nation to some degree. Do immigrants from Mexico who inter the US have to buy back land from us when they re enter the land of their ancestors?
0 Replies
 
Advocate
 
  -1  
Reply Wed 21 Nov, 2012 01:55 pm
@cicerone imposter,
cicerone imposter wrote:

You're pretty stupid, aren't you?


Those who are exposed for lying and quibling have to resort to ad hominems.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 21 Nov, 2012 01:58 pm
@Advocate,
Only after facts are provided, and they are refuted. Then, it's the facts that are being denied; the result is "stupid."

Here's another fact that you seem to ignore or deny; Jews have contempt for Jews.

Here's one of many articles found on the net, http://www.jeremiahhaber.com/2011/05/on-jewish-zealots-contempt-for-jewish.html

Live with it!
0 Replies
 
Advocate
 
  -1  
Reply Wed 21 Nov, 2012 01:58 pm
@Setanta,
Duh, Israelis didn't need a right of return considering that the land was unsettled territory (most recently the British Mandate).
Advocate
 
  -1  
Reply Wed 21 Nov, 2012 01:59 pm
@djjd62,
Good point!
0 Replies
 
Advocate
 
  -1  
Reply Wed 21 Nov, 2012 02:00 pm
@reasoning logic,
So-called "targeting" is a baseless assertion.
 

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