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Why There Cannot Be Peace Between Israel and the Palestinians

 
 
oralloy
 
  0  
Reply Sun 2 Dec, 2012 08:00 pm
@JTT,
JTT wrote:
We're just coming off two of the largest terrorist actions/war crimes in history, Iraq and Afghanistan


You're being silly. Afghanistan is a just war of self defense. Nothing even remotely illegal about it.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  1  
Reply Sun 2 Dec, 2012 08:02 pm
@reasoning logic,
reasoning logic wrote:
JTT wrote:
You do know that many Americans know full well of the war crimes and the ongoing terrorist activities of the US and they fail to do anything about it.


Well yes but this is the minority of Americans because the majority have been fed propaganda but I think the tides are changes as we evolve to be more empathic or maybe I am wrong about that but rather the truth is that the internet is enabling us to see more of the truth.


Actually, what you are wrong about, is the very notion that America has ever engaged in any sort of terrorism.

Terrorism involves targeting civilians. America does not target civilians.

And while there may be the odd war crime here and there, there is certainly nothing of any grave significance.
RST
 
  2  
Reply Sun 2 Dec, 2012 08:03 pm
@oralloy,
Quote:
Israel is the legitimate owner of the land. They have every right to do with it as they please.


Not the legitimate owner or else they wouldn't be referred to as squatters nor be seen as going against international laws, but that isn't the case, as they ARE going against international laws. And no they don't have the right to do as they please on areas of land that aren't theirs, Zionism Propaganda's bitch.
oralloy
 
  0  
Reply Sun 2 Dec, 2012 08:09 pm
@RST,
RST wrote:
I'm sorry, when do you consider squatters who are easily allowed gun licenses to shoot at and bully occupiers and just take their land to be innocent?


Since the Israelis are on their own land, they are hardly squatters.

Shooting Palestinians is the best way to prevent them from murdering people. That's just basic self defense.

And expecting a Palestinian to act like a human is hardly "bullying".
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  0  
Reply Sun 2 Dec, 2012 08:14 pm
@RST,
RST wrote:
My position has always been that both the parties involved are not innocent on the matter. Israel is the instigator, however.


No, Israel is the one who tried to make peace. The Palestinians are the ones who refused peace and started a war.



RST wrote:
Let me be clear, I disagree with your position that Israel is innocent. Both are at fault here,


It is hardly Israel's fault that the Palestinians choose to murder people instead of making peace.



RST wrote:
and the solution here is for both these people to coexist, setting aside their differences. Either through a two state solution, which hasn't worked so far, or a one state solution.


It'll be a two state solution. But Israel will draw the borders unilaterally. There won't be any more of this "1967 borders" nonsense anymore.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  0  
Reply Sun 2 Dec, 2012 08:16 pm
@reasoning logic,
reasoning logic wrote:
what may need to take place is a united nation response that is in the interest of both parties regardless if the parties disagree,


If you think the UN is going to impose anything on Israel, what sort of military do you think the UN has at it's disposal?

(And you forget that the US has veto power in the Security Council.)
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  0  
Reply Sun 2 Dec, 2012 08:19 pm
@reasoning logic,
reasoning logic wrote:
I find value in your response. Very Happy I truly do but what if this bulldozer was a Japanese bulldozer that came into your community because an atomic bomb just took out many innocent woman and children from there country?

If it was your brother that flew the plane over them and for some reason they were able to shoot him down after the fact do you think that his wife and children should not take any compensation that the US was willing to offer them?


That is a pretty silly scenario. Why would Japan try to retaliate for an event that Japan was at fault for?
oralloy
 
  0  
Reply Sun 2 Dec, 2012 08:24 pm
@reasoning logic,
reasoning logic wrote:
That is cool, I was not aware of that but it may be true. How would you think that if your home where you live, the same was done to you? I know I would not expect everyone to think the same as me but would it be justifiable for them to take out my home? maybe you think this is just part of war and I agree but I may not agree with any of it but regardless I guess I should lose my home?


Guess what. If you build your home across the road from the Pentagon, and a nuclear war breaks out between the US and Russia, the nuclear explosion over the Pentagon might actually make its way to the other side of the street.

If that happens, don't go whining to Russia that they should have spared your home. They'd laugh at you.

(Well, there would be no Russians left, but their ghosts would be laughing at you.)
BillRM
 
  0  
Reply Sun 2 Dec, 2012 08:33 pm
@reasoning logic,
Quote:
be justifiable for them to take out my home?


It is part of war indeed and look how many people on both sides was estimated would have been killed if we had landed troops on the home islands.

The Japanese government was even trying to convict their people to charge arm troops with poles and have children try to get under tanks with explosive backpacks.

The estimate was the price for taking the home islands would had run up to a million US troops and tens of millions of Japaneses mostly civilians.

There was an interesting novel by a gentleman with a military background who study the then existing war plans of both the allies and the Japanese for an invasion by the name of the Burning Mountain of what would had likely happen if those two bombs had not been drop and we needed to do the job the hard way.
JTT
 
  2  
Reply Sun 2 Dec, 2012 08:35 pm
@oralloy,
Quote:
America does not target civilians.


Quote:
US war-murdered 20-30 million since WW2: arrest today’s War Criminals
Posted on April 2, 2012 by Carl Herman
US covert and overt criminal Wars of Aggression caused 20-30 million deaths of human beings since World War 2, according to the outstanding documentation of James Lucas of Countercurrents.org. The US use/support of armed attacks is documented in 37 countries, and in direct violation of treaties after both world wars (Kellogg-Briand and UN Charter) to forever end armed attacks unless first attacked by another nation’s government.

The end of this gruesome and psychopathic history of armed attacks and war-murders in the Orwellian names of unalienable rights and freedom will end upon the demand of enough in the 99% to arrest the obvious current War Criminals.

What will you think, say, and do at this historic moment in US history?

What would make your family and you most proud, with consideration of your relatives who sacrificed dearly in wars?

What is the future you will work to earn: the continued path of lies, destruction and death of the 1%, or building a brighter future for 100% of Earth’s inhabitants? As you know, choosing 100% demands your intellectual integrity and moral courage to help expose and end the crimes of the current 1%. So this question is more: what is your life really for?

http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2012/04/us-war-murdered-20-30-million-since-ww2-arrest-todays-war-criminals.html




0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  2  
Reply Sun 2 Dec, 2012 08:37 pm
@oralloy,
Quote:
And while there may be the odd war crime here and there, there is certainly nothing of any grave significance.



Quote:
Deaths In Other Nations Since
WW II Due To Us Interventions


By James A. Lucas

24 April, 2007
Countercurrents.org

INTRODUCTION


After the catastrophic attacks of September 11 2001 monumental sorrow and a feeling of desperate and understandable anger began to permeate the American psyche. A few people at that time attempted to promote a balanced perspective by pointing out that the United States had also been responsible for causing those same feelings in people in other nations, but they produced hardly a ripple. Although Americans understand in the abstract the wisdom of people around the world empathizing with the suffering of one another, such a reminder of wrongs committed by our nation got little hearing and was soon overshadowed by an accelerated "war on terrorism."

But we must continue our efforts to develop understanding and compassion in the world. Hopefully, this article will assist in doing that by addressing the question “How many September 11ths has the United States caused in other nations since WWII?” This theme is developed in this report which contains an estimated numbers of such deaths in 37 nations as well as brief explanations of why the U.S. is considered culpable.

The causes of wars are complex. In some instances nations other than the U.S. may have been responsible for more deaths, but if the involvement of our nation appeared to have been a necessary cause of a war or conflict it was considered responsible for the deaths in it. In other words they probably would not have taken place if the U.S. had not used the heavy hand of its power. The military and economic power of the United States was crucial.

This study reveals that U.S. military forces were directly responsible for about 10 to 15 million deaths during the Korean and Vietnam Wars and the two Iraq Wars. The Korean War also includes Chinese deaths while the Vietnam War also includes fatalities in Cambodia and Laos.

The American public probably is not aware of these numbers and knows even less about the proxy wars for which the United States is also responsible. In the latter wars there were between nine and 14 million deaths in Afghanistan, Angola, Democratic Republic of the Congo, East Timor, Guatemala, Indonesia, Pakistan and Sudan.

But the victims are not just from big nations or one part of the world. The remaining deaths were in smaller ones which constitute over half the total number of nations. Virtually all parts of the world have been the target of U.S. intervention.

The overall conclusion reached is that the United States most likely has been responsible since WWII for the deaths of between 20 and 30 million people in wars and conflicts scattered over the world.

To the families and friends of these victims it makes little difference whether the causes were U.S. military action, proxy military forces, the provision of U.S. military supplies or advisors, or other ways, such as economic pressures applied by our nation. They had to make decisions about other things such as finding lost loved ones, whether to become refugees, and how to survive.

And the pain and anger is spread even further. Some authorities estimate that there are as many as 10 wounded for each person who dies in wars. Their visible, continued suffering is a continuing reminder to their fellow countrymen.

It is essential that Americans learn more about this topic so that they can begin to understand the pain that others feel. Someone once observed that the Germans during WWII “chose not to know.” We cannot allow history to say this about our country. The question posed above was “How many September 11ths has the United States caused in other nations since WWII?” The answer is: possibly 10,000.


http://www.countercurrents.org/lucas240407.htm
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  0  
Reply Sun 2 Dec, 2012 08:47 pm
@RST,
RST wrote:
Not the legitimate owner or else they wouldn't be referred to as squatters nor be seen as going against international laws, but that isn't the case, as they ARE going against international laws.


The fact that you call them squatters, and say they are violating international law, does not alter the reality that they are doing no such thing.

It's their ancient homeland. They gave a good shot at making peace. The Palestinians refused peace. Now Israel gets to draw the borders as they please.
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  2  
Reply Sun 2 Dec, 2012 08:52 pm
@BillRM,
Quote:
was even trying to convict their people to charge arm troops with poles


One doesn't 'convict' people to do things of that nature.
0 Replies
 
reasoning logic
 
  1  
Reply Mon 3 Dec, 2012 01:11 am
@oralloy,
Quote:
Guess what. If you build your home across the road from the Pentagon, and a nuclear war breaks out between the US and Russia, the nuclear explosion over the Pentagon might actually make its way to the other side of the street.


Don't you think that a nuclear explosion might take out homes a little further away than across the street?
reasoning logic
 
  1  
Reply Mon 3 Dec, 2012 01:16 am
@oralloy,
Quote:
Why would Japan try to retaliate for an event that Japan was at fault for?


Isn't always the other guys fault when you are at war? Has there ever been a time when the US was at fault?
oralloy
 
  0  
Reply Mon 3 Dec, 2012 01:29 am
@reasoning logic,
reasoning logic wrote:
Don't you think that a nuclear explosion might take out homes a little further away than across the street?


Of course.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  0  
Reply Mon 3 Dec, 2012 01:29 am
@reasoning logic,
reasoning logic wrote:
oralloy wrote:
Why would Japan try to retaliate for an event that Japan was at fault for?


Isn't always the other guys fault when you are at war?


No.



reasoning logic wrote:
Has there ever been a time when the US was at fault?


I'm not sure. Probably not in the past hundred years.
reasoning logic
 
  1  
Reply Mon 3 Dec, 2012 01:39 am
@oralloy,
Quote:
reasoning logic wrote:

oralloy wrote:

Why would Japan try to retaliate for an event that Japan was at fault for?



Isn't always the other guys fault when you are at war?



No.



reasoning logic wrote:

Has there ever been a time when the US was at fault?



I'm not sure. Probably not in the past hundred years.



I wonder if the other guy would respond the same way.
oralloy
 
  1  
Reply Mon 3 Dec, 2012 02:34 am
@reasoning logic,
reasoning logic wrote:
I wonder if the other guy would respond the same way.


Not if they are truthful.

You seem to want to find some sort of moral equivalence between good and evil. There isn't any.
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Mon 3 Dec, 2012 08:24 am
@oralloy,
Quote:
You seem to want to find some sort of moral equivalence between good and evil. There isn't any.


Agree............
0 Replies
 
 

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