11
   

Why There Cannot Be Peace Between Israel and the Palestinians

 
 
oralloy
 
  -2  
Reply Wed 28 Nov, 2012 07:52 pm
@RST,
RST wrote:
Most of the Israel supporters (oralloy for instance) say the Palestinians have no right to live in Israel, because of some Mosad fabricated excuse or another.


Actually it is because they are not Israelis.



RST wrote:
It is illogical to believe that Palestinians should not have a right to live where they and their parents lived for decades, and now should have to step aside (and be deported as you said Oralloy)


I might note that this was in reference to your proposal to make the entire region a single state.

Should that happen, yes, the Palestinians will have to leave, as they will not be allowed to become Israelis.



RST wrote:
to make some delusional people (like you Oralloy) who think they are God's chosen, and must have everything Palestinians built in 1400 years.


Reality is not a delusion. The West Bank is Israel's ancient homeland, and the Israelis have just as much claim to it as the Palestinians do.



RST wrote:
Equating my criticism of Israeli policy with antisemitism does not hold ground.


Disguising blood libel by directing the outrageous lies and accusations at Israel, doesn't mean it isn't still blood libel.



RST wrote:
I just think that one-state solution is the most logical approach to this conflict. It's neutral, and fair.


Keep in mind that no one has the right to force Israel to accept someone as a citizen of their country if they do not wish them to be citizens.



RST wrote:
All the people between the Jordan and the sea have the same right to equality, justice and freedom.


They do not, however, have any right to become citizens of Israel.

If they want a state, they will have to make peace and form their own state.



RST wrote:
In other words, there is a very reasonable chance that there will be only one democratic state between the Jordan and the sea: neither "ours" nor "theirs" but a mutual one.


There is no chance of it whatsoever, unless the Palestinians pack up and leave.

As previously noted, they will never be allowed to become citizens of Israel.



RST wrote:
So carry on with your lies.


You can't point to a single untrue thing I've ever said.
RST
 
  3  
Reply Wed 28 Nov, 2012 08:08 pm
@oralloy,
Quote:
You can't point to a single untrue thing I've ever said.

Actually your replies to my last post before this one are all wrong, unrelated, and doesn't make anys ense, because you don't understand what a one-state solution is. Either that or you are just voicing blatant hate against arab people of Palestine. If one-state solution is unfamiliar to you, go Google it, and then try to parry my belief on the subject matter.

When enough blood have been shed, then there might be some support for the one state solution, if only Jews are willing to forget the dream of a "Jewish" state, and that Palestinians are willing to share land with their occupiers, added to the list that both parties are willing to leave behind their extremism. I agree with you that this won't happen anytime in the present, because at the moment Israeli and Palestinian thinking are a little bit backwards.
Look at Switzerland, for example. Switzerland, is a really divided country in terms of its ethnic composition: Italians, Germans, and French. Albeit these different ethnic groups, they still managed to cooperate and live together and built a very strong and powerful country. They put behind their racist nationalist nature to have a more successful political integration of multilingual and multiethnic populace to build a harmonic society.
Advocate
 
  -2  
Reply Wed 28 Nov, 2012 08:13 pm
@RST,
RST wrote:

And what are you, an anti-arab racist?




Not at all. I think the 1.2 million Palestinian Israelis have a right to live in Israel, in happiness, as equal citizens, which they are.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  -4  
Reply Wed 28 Nov, 2012 08:22 pm
@RST,
RST wrote:
you don't understand what a one-state solution is.


I understand just fine. It is a situation where people imagine Israel accepting all Palestinians as citizens of their country.



RST wrote:
When enough blood have been shed, then there might be some support for the one state solution, if only Jews are willing to forget the dream of a "Jewish" state


That is your big stumbling block right there. They are not willing to forget that dream, nor can they be forced to do so.



RST wrote:
and that Palestinians are willing to share land with their occupiers,


The Palestinians are not being occupied. They were granted autonomy in the 1990s when people foolishly believed that they were interested in peace.



RST wrote:
Look at Switzerland, for example. Switzerland, is a really devided country, in terms of ethnic composition: Italians, Germans, and French. Albeit these different ethnic groups, they still managed to cooperate and live together and built a very strong and powerful country. They put aside their racist nationalist nature to have a more successful political integration of a multiethnic and multilingual populace to build a harmonic society.


But the Swiss people were already citizens of Switzerland. No one forced the Swiss to accept hostile foreigners into their nation against their will.
RST
 
  3  
Reply Wed 28 Nov, 2012 09:09 pm
@oralloy,
Quote:
I understand just fine. It is a situation where people imagine Israel accepting all Palestinians as citizens of their country.

A one state non-theocratic secular democracy is the only solution. Neither Israel nor Palestine. Imagine the irony if it was called Samaria. But seriously, the one state solution wouldn't be something you could implement overnight but as an aspiration it has to be worth consideration.


OH the way you hold up Israel high up as some pinnacle of perfection. The Israeli status quo is based on the Potemkin facade of "democracy" and "justice" when in fact it is based on kleptocracy, a morally inexcusable sense of ethnocentric entitlement based on an unfounded and propagandistic status of unique victimhood. The regime and its collaborators have played the western guilt card long and lucratively; as I mentioned before, perhaps we in the west should consider taking a deeper look at our own history, instead of living with the distorted narrative which is, in the words of Roger Guarady, the "founding myth" of the Israeli state. The world cannot tolerate the Israeli status quo forever.


Quote:
But the Swiss people were already citizens of Switzerland. No one forced the Swiss to accept hostile foreigners into their nation against their will.

Switzerland is a patchwork of small regions that gradually joined the confederation not because of a shared identity but because the confederation appeared to guarantee their independence.
oralloy
 
  -1  
Reply Thu 29 Nov, 2012 05:12 pm
@RST,
RST wrote:
A one state non-theocratic secular democracy is the only solution.


It is hardly the "only" solution. And considering that it requires Israel accepting all Palestinians as fellow citizens, it is actually the least likely solution.

Likely solutions are:

a) An eventual two state solution based on the Palestinians taking what territory they can take by force (meaning only about half of the West Bank, with no land around Jerusalem).

b) Things continuing much as they are, with the Palestinians being bombed into submission whenever they cause trouble.



RST wrote:
OH the way you hold up Israel high up as some pinnacle of perfection. The Israeli status quo is based on the Potemkin facade of "democracy" and "justice" when in fact it is based on kleptocracy, a morally inexcusable sense of ethnocentric entitlement based on an unfounded and propagandistic status of unique victimhood.


The Israeli status quo is based on the fact that the Palestinians refuse to make peace.

There is no kleptocracy. The West Bank is the ancient homeland of the Jews. You can't steal what you legally own.
RST
 
  3  
Reply Thu 29 Nov, 2012 06:41 pm
@oralloy,
Well wait and see what happens. Don't be too disheartened if your misguided ideas as to the solution to the problem doesn't come into existence. The only solution will come from below, a struggle and cooperation by the different peoples of the region - Palestinians, and Israelis – to accept each other without resorting to a full war. IDF will never be able to militarily crush the Palestinian struggle, being the Palestinian masses have shown again and again an iron determination to fight at all costs. Unless, of course, Israel resorts to extreme forms of crimes against humanity, and when that happens I don't think the world is just going to sit around and let it happen. on the contrary, that will just escalate more violence.
I only hope this issue is resolved within my life time, so I can tell you: "I told you so."
Your hypocrisy on the subject matter isn't even entertaining to me anymore, ok maybe it is a little.
georgeob1
 
  3  
Reply Thu 29 Nov, 2012 07:05 pm
The topic "Why thre can't be Peace between Israel and the Palestinians" is plagued by one-sided arguments from both sides of the issue. However, one observable fact is indisputable. Based on several prominent historical examples, (Northern Ireland is the most prominent recent example) this struggle involves self-sustaining elements that history shows can easily last for thre or more centuries, and end only when the zealots on both sides give up on the self-serving sectarian ideals that started it all, and agree that peace and accomodation to the equal rights of the other side is preferable to continued killings and oppression. That goal may well still be centuries away in Palestine.

I don't believe a peaceful and equitable two state solution is possible. Israeli demands that they alone control all the external borders of a Palestinian state; retain ownership of West Bank territory ilegally taken from the former residents of that land; and retain control of the limited water and air rights and resources of the region are simply not compatable with a fair and equitable solution for two independent states, and more importantly aren't terms the Palestinians are ever likely to accept. Complicating this is the observable fact that Israeli dominance is likely limited in time - the demographic facts won't allow it: the Palestinian population is rising much faster than that in Israel. That factor alone eventually made the survival of the Orange government in Northern Ireland an impossibility, and it will likely dominate the palestinian struggle as well.

This one will end only when the peoples involved decide to live together on the basis of equality. Right now I believe we are very far indeed from that possibility.
reasoning logic
 
  1  
Reply Thu 29 Nov, 2012 07:30 pm

UN recognizes Palestine as non-member state

oralloy
 
  -1  
Reply Thu 29 Nov, 2012 07:39 pm
@RST,
RST wrote:
Well wait and see what happens. Don't be too disheartened if your misguided ideas as to the solution to the problem doesn't come into existence.


They are not my ideas for a solution. They are realistic predictions of the outcome.

The Palestinians seem determined to wrest their state into existence by way of aggression instead of peaceful negotiation.

As such, the borders of their state will be only what territory the Palestinians can seize from the Israeli military.

That means Israel will keep everything west of the Separation Fence, including greater Jerusalem, and will also keep the Jordan River Valley.

The Palestinians will be left with about half of the West Bank, broken into a northern and southern half by Israel's possession of Jerusalem.



RST wrote:
The only solution will come from below, a struggle and cooperation by the different peoples of the region - Palestinians, and Israelis – to accept each other without resorting to a full war.


You seem to have this belief that your unrealistic pipe dreams are the "only" possibility. They are not.



RST wrote:
IDF will never be able to militarily crush the Palestinian struggle, being the Palestinian masses have shown again and again an iron determination to fight at all costs. Unless, of course, Israel resorts to extreme forms of crimes against humanity, and when that happens I don't think the world is just going to sit around and let it happen. on the contrary, that will just escalate more violence.


All Israel needs to do is bomb the Palestinians into submission when they start killing people. There will not be any crimes against humanity.

And the US and Israel will destroy anyone who tries to prevent Israel from defending themselves.



RST wrote:
I only hope this issue is resolved within my life time, so I can tell you: "I told you so."
Your hypocrisy on the subject matter isn't even entertaining to me anymore, ok maybe it is a little.


You cannot cite a single hypocritical thing I've ever said.
BillRM
 
  -1  
Reply Thu 29 Nov, 2012 07:42 pm
@RST,
Quote:
IDF will never be able to militarily crush the Palestinian struggle, being the Palestinian masses have shown again and again an iron determination to fight at all costs.


What the Romans did to solve their Carthage problem is still available and given that they are likely the third or fourth nuclear power on the planet I would not bet that the rest of the world would pay the price to stop them from doing so if that the path they decide they need to walk down.
0 Replies
 
reasoning logic
 
  1  
Reply Thu 29 Nov, 2012 07:43 pm
@oralloy,
Quote:

The Palestinians seem determined to wrest their state into existence by way of aggression instead of peaceful negotiation.


Would you consider yourself to be one of the minority that were the 9 or the majority that was the 138
oralloy
 
  -1  
Reply Thu 29 Nov, 2012 07:55 pm
@georgeob1,
georgeob1 wrote:
I don't believe a peaceful and equitable two state solution is possible. Israeli demands that they alone control all the external borders of a Palestinian state; retain ownership of West Bank territory ilegally taken from the former residents of that land; and retain control of the limited water and air rights and resources of the region are simply not compatable with a fair and equitable solution for two independent states, and more importantly aren't terms the Palestinians are ever likely to accept.


It was hardly illegal for Israel to capture the West Bank. And it is unlikely that Israel would insist on those terms as part of a peace accord, were the Palestinians to ever be willing to make peace.



georgeob1 wrote:
Complicating this is the observable fact that Israeli dominance is likely limited in time - the demographic facts won't allow it: the Palestinian population is rising much faster than that in Israel. That factor alone eventually made the survival of the Orange government in Northern Ireland an impossibility, and it will likely dominate the palestinian struggle as well.


A rising Palestinian population will not prevent Israel from remaining the stronger power, or prevent Israel from defending themselves.

And if Israel ever faced a threat that could not be eliminated by the combined forces of the Israeli and US military, Israel could just take care of it by popping off a few atomic shells.
reasoning logic
 
  1  
Reply Thu 29 Nov, 2012 07:58 pm
@oralloy,
Quote:
Israel could just take care of it by popping off a few atomic shells.


Are you being serious? I love the comedy that you share. Are you a professional comedian?
oralloy
 
  -1  
Reply Thu 29 Nov, 2012 07:59 pm
@reasoning logic,
reasoning logic wrote:
UN recognizes Palestine as non-member state



The Prime Minister's Office issued a statement after Palestinian Authority Mahmoud Abbas's speech at the UN General Assembly, saying that by going to the UN the Palestinians have "violated agreements with Israel, and Israel will act accordingly."

Israel has made clear in recent days that it would free Israel of its obligations under the Oslo accord since Jerusalem views the move as a blatant violation of the underlying principle of those agreements: that all outstanding issues be resolved through negotiations, not through unilateral actions.

http://www.jpost.com/Headlines/Article.aspx?id=294043
oralloy
 
  -1  
Reply Thu 29 Nov, 2012 08:02 pm
@reasoning logic,
reasoning logic wrote:
Would you consider yourself to be one of the minority that were the 9 or the majority that was the 138


I would be one of the 9 with the courage to stand up against anti-Semitsm.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  -1  
Reply Thu 29 Nov, 2012 08:05 pm
@reasoning logic,
reasoning logic wrote:
oralloy wrote:
Israel could just take care of it by popping off a few atomic shells.


Are you being serious? I love the comedy that you share. Are you a professional comedian?


I am quite serious. If Israel ever faces an invading army that they cannot defeat conventionally, they will fire atomic artillery shells at it.
reasoning logic
 
  1  
Reply Thu 29 Nov, 2012 08:06 pm
@oralloy,
Quote:
The Prime Minister's Office issued a statement after Palestinian Authority Mahmoud Abbas's speech at the UN General Assembly, saying that by going to the UN the Palestinians have "violated agreements with Israel, and Israel will act accordingly."


Yep and I can only guess that slave masters of the past said similar things.
reasoning logic
 
  1  
Reply Thu 29 Nov, 2012 08:08 pm
@oralloy,
Do you think that your thinking is similar to that of a Dixiecrat?
oralloy
 
  -1  
Reply Thu 29 Nov, 2012 08:10 pm
@reasoning logic,
reasoning logic wrote:
Quote:
The Prime Minister's Office issued a statement after Palestinian Authority Mahmoud Abbas's speech at the UN General Assembly, saying that by going to the UN the Palestinians have "violated agreements with Israel, and Israel will act accordingly."


Yep and I can only guess that slave masters of the past said similar things.


Anti-Semitism has no place here. The fact that the Palestinians have nullified the Oslo accords does not justify accusing Israel of acting like slave owners.
 

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