Finn dAbuzz
 
  2  
Reply Thu 15 Nov, 2012 01:32 pm
@maxdancona,
I wrongly predicted a victory for Romney. I'm not predicting a victory for the GOP house. My evaluation is that it's possible for them to come out ahead in this dispute. If you think that evaluation is wanting, so be it.
0 Replies
 
H2O MAN
 
  -1  
Reply Fri 16 Nov, 2012 08:02 am
http://cryandhowl.files.wordpress.com/2012/11/twinkie-the-kids-final-moments1-620x4651.jpg?w=630&h=388
revelette
 
  2  
Reply Fri 16 Nov, 2012 09:00 am
Some Republican governors soften on taxes

Lets hope some house and senate republicans are listening to them.
parados
 
  2  
Reply Fri 16 Nov, 2012 09:32 am
@H2O MAN,
Wasn't your entire argument about the car companies that we should LET them go bankrupt because that is what capitalism DOES?
revelette
 
  1  
Reply Fri 16 Nov, 2012 12:13 pm
@H2O MAN,
Hostess has already went into bankrupty and wanted to slash workers wages and benefits. They simply havnen't kept up with the times in offering healthier alternatives to their brand.

The company filed for Chapter 11 bankruptcy protection in January


Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Sat 17 Nov, 2012 01:27 am
@revelette,
Let's not.
0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Sat 17 Nov, 2012 01:31 am
@revelette,
Healthier alternatives to their brand?

This has to be one of the most idiotic comments in a long line of idiotic comments in this forum.

This has absolutely nothing to do with their financial problems!

They had a brand and a menu of products that should have assured them profits for years to come.

They imploded due to poor management and union parasites. A lethal combination.



hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Sat 17 Nov, 2012 01:37 am
@Finn dAbuzz,
Quote:
They imploded due to poor management and union parasites. A lethal combination


poor is an understatement. over the last ten years this has been one of the worst managed companies around, they needed to die, and yes this is what should have happened to GMC.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  0  
Reply Sun 18 Nov, 2012 06:34 pm
@parados,
Don't let those ignoramuses who doesn't understand how governments are responsible for their economy "can and should" save some industries that pay off in the long run.

Can you imagine what would have happened to the world's economy if the government(s) didn't save the banking industry?

All developed and economic healthy countries do it - as it should.

The auto industry not only helps our economy with more jobs and tax revenues, but it also helps our balance of trade.

0 Replies
 
revelette
 
  2  
Reply Mon 19 Nov, 2012 10:36 am
@Finn dAbuzz,
Quote:
Reuters: Hostess Filed For Its First Bankruptcy In 2004. In March, Reuters reported that Hostess "filed for its first bankruptcy in 2004, citing declining sales, high food costs, excess capacity and worker benefit expenses." [Reuters, 3/6/12]

Forbes: The Company Exited Bankruptcy In 2009. In July, Forbes reported that "Hostess was able to exit bankruptcy in 2009" because of an "equity infusion of $130 million" from a private equity firm, as well as "substantial concessions by the two big unions" and lenders that "agreed to say in the game rather than drive Hostess into liquidation." [Forbes, 7/26/12]

Huffington Post: Hostess Re-Entered Bankruptcy In 2012. In January, The Huffington Post reported that "Hostess Brands is hoping to cut its high costs as it heads back into bankruptcy protection for the second time in less than a decade." [The Huffington Post, 1/11/12]

Hostess' First Bankruptcy Was Expensive And Did Not Improve The Company's Prospects

Reuters: Hostess' Entered "First Bankruptcy With $648.5 Million In Debt, And Came Out With More Than $800 Million." Reuters reported that after Hostess filed for its first bankruptcy in 2004, "it did not deal with its debt":

It tackled some issues -- closing bakeries and simplifying some union contracts -- but it did not deal with its debt. It went into the first bankruptcy with $648.5 million in debt, and came out with more than $800 million, according to court documents. [Reuters, 3/6/12]

Reuters: Hostess "Spent More Than $170 Million On Professional Fees" In Its First Bankruptcy. Reuters further reported that in its first bankruptcy, Hostess spent more than $170 million on professional fees:

Each time a company goes bankrupt, it must pay for lawyers and advisers not only for itself, but for its major creditors. In its first bankruptcy, Hostess spent more than $170 million on professional fees, based on its monthly operating reports. [Reuters, 3/6/12]

NY Times: Hostess Entered Bankruptcy In 2012 With Debts And Liabilities That Exceeded Its Assets. In January, The New York Times' DealBook reported that Hostess had "more than $850 million of secured debt outstanding" as well as "$180 million in accrued workers compensation liabilities." The Times further reported that "[a]nother $50 million to $60 million is outstanding to trade creditors, plus $36 million in lease obligation" and that the company was "going to lay a $75 million debtor-in-possession loan on top of that." The Times added that "all this from a company with assets of just over $980 million." [The New York Times, Dealbook, 1/13/12]

Hostess Asked Unions For More Pay Cuts Despite "Substantial Concessions" In The Past

Forbes: Hostess Exited Bankruptcy Because Of "Substantial Concessions By The Two Big Unions." Forbes explained that Hostess was able to exit bankruptcy in 2009 for three reasons, including that "substantial concessions" were made "by the two big unions" -- the Teamsters and the Bakery, Confectionery, Tobacco Workers and Grain Millers International Union. Forbes further explained that "annual labor cost savings to the company were about $110 million" and that "thousands of union members lost their jobs." [Forbes, 7/26/12]

Hostess Had Stopped Contributing To Pensions And Wanted To Cut Worker Pay Further. According to The Kansas City Star, union leaders reported that Hostess had stopped contributing to workers' pensions and wanted to cut wages and benefits "by 27 to 32 percent":

The bakery workers union said the contract would cut wages and benefits by 27 to 32 percent, including an immediate 8 percent wage cut.

[...]

Union officials said the company stopped contributing to the workers' pensions last year, and 92 percent of union members voted to reject the contract in September. A bankruptcy court judge allowed the company to force the union to accept the new collective bargaining agreement.

"Hostess Brands is making a mockery of the labor relations system that has been in place for nearly 100 years," said Frank Hurt, international president of the union. [The Kansas City Star, 11/12/12]

Hostess Raised Executive Salary By 35% To 80%. According to The Wall Street Journal, in April Hostess' creditors noted that Hostess had dramatically increased executive pay, including increasing CEO compensation from $750,000 to $2.25 million. According to the Journal, Hostess' creditors called the move "a possible effort to 'sidestep' Bankruptcy Code compensation programs":

Last July, the court documents said, the compensation committee of Hostess's board approved an increase in then-chief executive Brian Driscoll's salary from to $2.55 million from around $750,000. The company had hired restructuring lawyers in March 2011, the creditors said, and filed for bankruptcy protection on Jan. 11.

[...]

Besides Mr. Driscoll, "other executives' salaries were increased by from 35% to 80%," the creditors said. The documents said that Mr. Driscoll subsequently renounced a portion of the increase while "other executives did not appear to have done so." Besides Mr. Driscoll, two other executives who saw their salaries increase have also left the company, according to the spokesman.[The Wall Street Journal, 4/4/12]


Hostess Had Many Problems Beyond Labor Costs
CNBC: After Bankruptcy Hostess' "Sales Declined And Attempts To Roll-Out New Products More In Line With Changing Consumer Tastes Flopped." CNBC reported that the first round of bankruptcy "wasn't enough to save" Hostess, adding: "The company's sales declined and attempts to roll-out new products more in line with changing consumer tastes flopped." [CNBC, 11/16/12]

Forbes: Hostess Has Had Six CEOs In A Decade. When CEO Greg Rayburn took over Hostess in March 2012, he became the sixth CEO of the company in a decade. [Forbes, 7/26/12]

Associated Press: "Hostess' Snacks Don't Neatly Fit Into The U.S. Trend Toward A Healthier Lifestyle." In a report on the second bankruptcy, the Associated Press reported that "health-conscious Americans favor yogurt and energy bars over the dessert cakes and white bread they devoured 30 years ago." AP further noted that "Hostess' snacks don't neatly fit into the U.S. trend toward a healthier lifestyle that includes a diet rich in whole wheat foods, fruits and vegetables." [Associated Press, 1/11/12, via The Huffington Post]

Wash. Post: Hostess Has Been "Rife With ... Problems" Beyond Labor Issues, Including "Management's Failure To Freshen Up A Stale Product Line." In January, The Washington Post reported that the "failure of the [Hostess] brand, for decades a staple of American kids' diets, is a parable, rife with the problems that have plagued some of the country's oldest and most famous brands -- a combination of pension burdens, labor rules, crippling debt from financial engineers and management's failure to freshen up a stale product line and keep up with consumers' changing tastes." [The Washington Post, 1/11/12]

Wash. Post: January Bankruptcy Filing Shows Hostess "Would Have Lost Money Without Any Pension Costs At All." The Washington Post reported in January that Hostess "lost $250 million in the less than three years since it emerged from its previous bankruptcy. That means it would have lost money without any pension costs at all." The Post noted that Hostess "lost money in 30 of the past 37 quarters." [The Washington Post, 1/11/12]

NY Times: Hostess "Does Not Have Much Of A Finance Department." In a report on the second bankruptcy, The New York Times' DealBook noted that "something is a bit odd at Hostess." The Times reported:


The issue here is the corporation itself. The first clue that something is a bit odd at Hostess comes from the company's description of its chief financial officer, whom we are told:


is responsible for driving the planned priorities of the finance organization in both the front and back office and regularly collaborates with the marketing, sales and operations departments.

Resist the temptation to mock the consulting-firm-speak ("driving the planned priorities?"), and ask yourself what's missing. Don't C.F.O.'s normally work closely with the treasury departments, too?

Turns out that Hostess has no treasury department. It apparently doesn't have anyone who can perform treasury functions at all.

The company has asked the bankruptcy court for permission to hire FTI Consulting to do the work. Apparently Hostess does not have much of a finance department either, since FTI is also providing employees for that department. [The New York Times, Dealbook, 1/13/12]


links at the source

Twinkies likely to survive sale of Hostess

cicerone imposter
 
  -1  
Reply Mon 19 Nov, 2012 10:58 am
@revelette,
I have only one question for the all of you. Did you sell when the market was down?
revelette
 
  1  
Reply Mon 19 Nov, 2012 12:23 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Didn't have anything to sell.
cicerone imposter
 
  -1  
Reply Mon 19 Nov, 2012 12:30 pm
@revelette,
You must have a very good pension plan. Mr. Green Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes
0 Replies
 
H2O MAN
 
  -1  
Reply Mon 19 Nov, 2012 02:55 pm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=BULshCIYhoM
0 Replies
 
djjd62
 
  1  
Reply Mon 19 Nov, 2012 03:18 pm
@JPB,
JPB wrote:
I think they're going to come up with something that's close to Simpson-Bowles


it would be better if they came up with something like Camilla Parker Bowles

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/40/Duchess_of_Cornwall_2012.JPG/220px-Duchess_of_Cornwall_2012.JPG

at least if it went off a cliff no one would care

well maybe Charles
0 Replies
 
firefly
 
  1  
Reply Tue 20 Nov, 2012 08:23 am
Quote:
November 18, 2012
Is Rush Limbaugh’s Country Gone?
By THOMAS B. EDSALL

The morning after the re-election of President Obama, Rush Limbaugh told his listeners:

I went to bed last night thinking we’re outnumbered. I went to bed last night thinking all this discussion we’d had about this election being the election that will tell us whether or not we’ve lost the country. I went to bed last night thinking we’ve lost the country. I don’t know how else you look at this.

The conservative talk show host, who had been an upbeat, if initially doubtful, Romney supporter throughout the campaign, was on a post-election downer:

In a country of children where the option is Santa Claus or work, what wins? And say what you want, but Romney did offer a vision of traditional America. In his way, he put forth a great vision of traditional America, and it was rejected. It was rejected in favor of a guy who thinks that those who are working aren’t doing enough to help those who aren’t. And that resonated.

Limbaugh echoed a Republican theme that was voiced before and after the election: Barack Obama has unleashed a coalition of Americans “who are dependent upon government, who believe that they are victims, who believe the government has a responsibility to care for them, who believe that they are entitled to health care, to food, to housing, to you-name-it — that that’s an entitlement. And the government should give it to them” — as Mitt Romney put it in his notorious commentary on the 47 percent.

You can find this message almost everywhere on the right side of the spectrum. The Heritage Foundation, for example, annually calculates an “Index of Dependence on Government,” which grows every year:

Today, more people than ever before depend on the federal government for housing, food, income, student aid, or other assistance once considered to be the responsibility of individuals, families, neighborhoods, churches, and other civil society institutions. The United States reached another milestone in 2010: For the first time in history, half the population pays no federal income taxes. It is the conjunction of these two trends—higher spending on dependence-creating programs, and an ever-shrinking number of taxpayers who pay for these programs—that concerns those interested in the fate of the American form of government.

William Bennett, conservative stalwart, television commentator and secretary of education under President Reagan, complained on the CNN Web site that Democrats have been successful in setting

the parameters and focus of the national and political dialogue as predominantly about gender, race, ethnicity and class. This is the paradigm, the template through which many Americans, probably a majority, more or less view the world, our country, and the election. It is a divisive strategy and Democrats have targeted and exploited those divides. How else can we explain that more young people now favor socialism to capitalism?

In fact, the 2011 Pew Research Center poll Bennett cites demonstrates that in many respects conservatives are right to be worried:
http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2012/11/18/opinion/18edsall/18edsall-blog480.jpg
Not only does a plurality (49-43) of young people hold a favorable view of socialism — and, by a tiny margin (47-46), a negative view of capitalism — so do liberal Democrats, who view socialism positively by a solid 59-33; and African Americans, 55-36. Hispanics are modestly opposed, 49-44, to socialism, but they hold decisively negative attitudes toward capitalism, 55-32.

Much of the focus in the media in recent years has been on the growing hard-line stance of the Republican Party. At the same time, there are significant developments taking place as a new left alliance forms to underpin the Democratic Party. John Judis and Ruy Teixeira originally described this alliance in 2002 as the emerging Democratic majority in a pioneering book of the same name. More recently, the pollster Stan Greenberg and a group of liberal activists have described it as the “rising American electorate.”

Celinda Lake, a Democratic pollster who has devoted much of her work to analyzing the changing shape of the liberal and conservative coalitions, said in an e-mail that the rising American electorate

will have profound implications because the R.A.E. has a very different approach to the role for government, very different views on race and tolerance, different views on gender roles, and very different views on economic opportunity and security. These are some of the biggest divides in our culture.
Robert Borosage, co-director of the liberal-left Campaign for America’s Future, put it more bluntly in a blog post:

In our Gilded Age of extreme inequality, with a middle class that increasingly understands the rules are rigged against them, this was the first election in what is likely to be an era of growing class warfare.

Two post-election polls – one released Nov. 14 by the Democracy Corps (founded by Stan Greenberg and James Carville), the other released Nov. 16 by the Public Religion Research Institute – reveal the decisively liberal views of the core constituencies within the rising American electorate and its support for government activism, especially measures to help the disadvantaged.

The findings from the P.R.R.I. survey are very illuminating:

*When voters were asked whether cutting taxes or investing in education and infrastructure is the better policy to promote economic growth, the constituencies of the new liberal electorate consistently chose education and infrastructure by margins ranging from 2-1 to 3-2 — African Americans by 62-33, Hispanics by 61-37, never-married men by 56-38, never-married women by 64-30, voters under 30 by 63-34, and those with post-graduate education by 60-33.

Conservative constituencies generally chose lowering taxes by strong margins — whites by 52-42, married men by 59-34, married women by 51-44, all men by 52-41; older voters between the ages of 50 and 65 by 54-42.

*The constituencies that make up the rising American electorate are firmly in favor of government action to reduce the gap between rich and poor, by 85-15 among blacks, 74-26 for Hispanics; 70-30 never-married men; 83-15 never-married women; and 76-24 among voters under 30. Conservative groups range from lukewarm to opposed: 53-47 for men; 53-47 among voters 50-65; 46-54 among married men; 52-47 among all whites.

*One of the clearest divides between the rising American electorate and the rest of the country is in responses to the statement “Government is providing too many social services that should be left to religious groups and private charities. Black disagree 67-32; Hispanics disagree 57-40; never-married women 70-27; never-married men, 59-41; young voters, 66-34; and post-grad, 65-34. Conversely, whites agree with the statement 54-45; married men agree, 60-39; married women, 55-44; all men, 55-43.


The Democracy Corps survey specifically broke out the collective views of the liberal alliance and contrasted them with the views of those on the right. Some findings:

*By a margin of 60-13, voters on the left side of the spectrum favor raising taxes on incomes above $1 million, while voters outside of the left are much less supportive, 39-25. In the case of raising the minimum wage, the left backs a hike by an overwhelming 64-6 margin, while those on the right are far less supportive, 32-18. The rising American electorate backs raising the minimum wage by 64-6, while the people outside it back a hike by just 32-18. The left coalition supports a carbon tax or fee by 43-14 while right-leaning voters are opposed, 37-24.

Policies supported by the rising American electorate — which closely overlaps with the Obama coalition — provoke intense opposition from the right. In the aftermath of the election, Romney blamed his defeat on the “gifts” Obama handed out to “the African-American community, the Hispanic community and young people.”

In fact, the rising American electorate represents a direct threat to the striking array of government benefits for the affluent that the conservative movement has won over the past 40 years. These include the reduction of the top income tax rate from 50 percent in 1986 to 35 percent; the 15 percent tax rate on dividend and capital gains income, which was 39.9 percent in 1977; the lowering of the top estate tax rate from 70 percent in 1981, with just $175,000 exempted from taxation, to a top rate of 35 percent this year with $5.1 million exempted from taxation.

At the same time, the Pew survey cited above shows the high levels of skepticism and hostility toward capitalism on the part of the emerging Democratic majority. Insofar as the liberal coalition succeeds in electing senators and representatives who share those views, the business community will have increasing difficulty in winning approval of its deregulated market and free trade agenda.

As Obama negotiates with Republican House and Senate leaders to prevent a dive over the “fiscal cliff,” he will be under strong pressure from his reinvigorated liberal supporters to take a tough stand in support of tax hikes on the well-to-do and to more firmly limit spending cuts.

“Looking ahead to their post-election agenda, this is not a group looking for ‘austerity,’ ” the Democracy Corps wrote in a report accompanying its post-election survey. “Indeed, their issues are explicitly progressive and investment-oriented,” in terms of human capital. The report went on:

The rising American electorate’s most important priority for the president and the Congress is “investing in education,” followed by “protecting Social Security and Medicare.”

In effect, the 21st century version of class conflict sets the stage for an exceptionally bitter face-off between the left and the right in Congress. The national government is facing the prospect of forced austerity, weighing such zero-sum choices as raising capital gains taxes or cutting food stamps, slashing defense spending or restricting unemployment benefits, establishing a 15 cents-a-gallon gasoline tax or pushing citizens off the Medicaid rolls, pushing central bank policy favorable to the financial services industry or curtailing Medicare eligibility.

In broader terms, the political confrontation pits taxpayers, who now form the core of the center-right coalition, against tax consumers who form the core of the center-left. According to the Tax Policy Center, 46.4 percent of all tax filers had no federal income tax liability in 2011 (although most people pay a combination of state, sales, excise, property and other levies).There are clear exceptions to this dichotomy, as many Social Security and Medicare beneficiaries (tax recipients) vote Republican, and many college-educated upper-income citizens of all races and ethnicities (tax payers) vote Democratic. Nonetheless, the overarching division remains, and the battle lines are drawn over how to distribute the costs of the looming fiscal crisis. The outcome of this policy fight will determine whether Limbaugh is correct to fear that his side has “lost the country.”

Thomas B. Edsall, a professor of journalism at Columbia University, is the author of the book “The Age of Austerity: How Scarcity Will Remake American Politics,” which was published earlier this year.
http://campaignstops.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/11/18/is-rush-limbaughs-country-gone/
0 Replies
 
JPB
 
  2  
Reply Tue 20 Nov, 2012 08:31 am
Someone (talking head) made the point yesterday that we should listen to Rush closely for the next couple weeks. If he starts giving cover to rate increases then we know the deal is done. I'm personally not willing to listen to Rush at all, to say nothing about listening closely. Any volunteers?
revelette
 
  1  
Reply Tue 20 Nov, 2012 10:34 am
@JPB,
Well, we won't have to, there would be plenty of news coverage at plenty of other sources if Rush start making noises to save face for rate increases. I think anyone thinking that has a chance of happening is living in a fantasy world, but I guess we'll see.
0 Replies
 
revelette
 
  1  
Reply Tue 20 Nov, 2012 10:46 am
Here are two different outlooks for happens if go over the "fiscal cliff."

Falling Off Fiscal Cliff May Be Better for Democrats Than Republicans




Let’s go over the fiscal cliff
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Tue 20 Nov, 2012 10:58 am
@revelette,
That's been a given from the very beginning; that the GOP would use that as a threat against the democrats only proves their inability to see the "big" picture in anything they do.

Obama has already said there won't be an agreement without higher tax rates for the rich. The GOP is still trying to buck that stance with their childish threats.

They've already lost the battle, but continues to rattle their sabers. They never learn. LOL
 

Related Topics

Obama '08? - Discussion by sozobe
Let's get rid of the Electoral College - Discussion by Robert Gentel
McCain's VP: - Discussion by Cycloptichorn
Food Stamp Turkeys - Discussion by H2O MAN
The 2008 Democrat Convention - Discussion by Lash
McCain is blowing his election chances. - Discussion by McGentrix
Snowdon is a dummy - Discussion by cicerone imposter
TEA PARTY TO AMERICA: NOW WHAT?! - Discussion by farmerman
 
  1. Forums
  2. » Fiscal Cliff
  3. » Page 6
Copyright © 2024 MadLab, LLC :: Terms of Service :: Privacy Policy :: Page generated in 0.23 seconds on 12/23/2024 at 11:47:04