Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Mon 31 Dec, 2012 08:53 am
@JPB,
JPB wrote:
That's my goal, actually. To look for ways that don't add up to zero.

Good luck with that. I don't see any game that adds up to anything greater than zero, and that doesn't involve a decisive defeat in this game of the Republican Party, as currently constituted.
JPB
 
  1  
Reply Mon 31 Dec, 2012 10:11 am
@Thomas,
Ari projects just that...

Quote:
@AriFleischer: Rasmussen generic ballot shows Ds +11 for Congress. If GOP doesn't make smart changes, we're on track for massive defeat.
0 Replies
 
firefly
 
  2  
Reply Mon 31 Dec, 2012 10:16 am
@JPB,
I don't agree with you about lobbying--there is nothing wrong with lobbying per se, it often helps to inform lawmakers about particular issues they might otherwise be unaware of or unconcerned about.

I have problems with lobbying when it involves lobbying groups throwing money at legislators, with campaign donations and other bribes--the politicians then become beholden to these "benefactors" rather than to their constituencies.
I'd rather completely overhaul our system of campaign financing, to prevent the wide-scale influence peddling we have now, before I'd do away with lobbyists.
Quote:
The system is broken and the sooner we stand up to the political parties and lobbyist groups the better.

The problem boils down to the voters--those who actually do bother to vote.

If people want to vote by party, rather than on the basis of appeal of individual candidates, that's fine, if that party really reflects the voter's views and preferences.

Everyone has the same opportunity to ignore all the political party-hype, and the campaign ads, and instead really listen to the candidates, and check out their past voting records, and positions on the issues. There are town hall meetings, and debates, for all candidates for state and federal legislative offices, that anyone can attend or watch on TV. How many people actually bother to do most of those things before they decide who to vote for? Do most even watch the pre-election debates that are held for all candidates running to represent a particular Congressional district?

The system isn't really broken, we have a lazy and not always well informed electorate. They wind up getting the government they deserve.

In the end, we each have only one vote, and that vote matters just as much as everyone else's vote. There is no amount of campaign advertising or marketing that is able to buy my vote.

But, if people are going to continue to elect legislators with a virulently anti-government agenda and attitude, as we have seen with the Tea Party movement, they will wind up with a dysfunctional gridlocked government, which is what we are seeing--a Congress really can't govern effectively if you have obstructionists who basically oppose the notion of a strong government. Our two-party system relies on the art of compromise to strike balances which find some middle ground. Extremists will never be happy with that middle ground, but most people will accept it. Once the extremists get the upper hand, and block the ability to compromise, everyone is sunk.

Right now, with the fiscal cliff negotiations, the Republican party has been rendered dysfunctional by its own extremists who have hung Boehner out to dry and made him ineffective as a leader--he can't marshal his own forces. He can try to blame the President for the fiscal cliff impasse, and accuse him of being unwilling to stand up to his Democratic party, as he has just done, but that really doesn't make much sense. The President is holding to the same position he campaigned on, and the schism isn't between the President and his party, or even within the Democratic party, it's clearly within the Republican ranks. When the Republican leaders are able to stand up to their own extremists, instead of cowering before them, they'll be able to strike a reasonable compromise that's more in line with what most voters have said they want--which is some increase on taxes for the wealthy as a way of increasing revenue.

Everyone agrees on the need to cut spending--it's the Republican insistence that spending cuts be linked right now to the tax issues--for their own face-saving and extremist appeasing reasons--that not only blocks compromise, it significantly threatens the health of our economy if we go over that fiscal cliff--and playing with the economic fate of the country over that sort of partisan nonsense is what's crazy.

0 Replies
 
JPB
 
  1  
Reply Mon 31 Dec, 2012 01:14 pm
Obama just wrapping up a press conference where he's managed to move the goalposts with 10 hours to go before the deadline, piss off a whole bunch of Rs and let his already pissed off Ds know that he's willing to give now on some revenues but will ask for them back as part of sequestration offsets.

Current deal is $400/450, AMT fix, 40% inheritance tax

I'm at 75-25 we get a straight up-and-down vote on $250,000 before the end of the day.
JPB
 
  1  
Reply Mon 31 Dec, 2012 01:16 pm
The twitter feed from the Rs went nuts during Obama's speech. They are very displeased.
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Mon 31 Dec, 2012 01:23 pm
@JPB,
I'd love for this to end at $250,000...but I am afraid that train has already left the station.

In any case, I also want to be reasonable and pragmatic. The bottom line in this issue is that the fact that both Democrats and Republicans agree that trying to protect the middle class from tax increases is the right thing to do...

...is probably the best indicator that it is the wrong road being traveled.

One way or another, the VAST majority of all taxes will end up being paid by the middle class. The poor simply CANNOT pay much of them...and the rich simply WILL NOT pay much of them.

We gotta deal with that.

Americans want (and should want) lots of things that cost money. They want to be the big guy on the block as far as military power is concerned; they want people not to be starving or freezing in the streets; they want everyone to have adequate medical care; they want our people to be schooled; they want a reasonably secure old age for everyone.

That **** all costs...big time. And the only way it will ever be insured for EVERYONE...is if the government gets involved.

I suggest it is the middle class that is going to pay for almost all of it.

I enjoyed Obama's presentation...he does a good job of being folksy, serious, and reasonable at the same time.

JPB
 
  1  
Reply Mon 31 Dec, 2012 01:29 pm
@Frank Apisa,
You're clearly not a Republican congressman, Frank. What you see as folksy they're seeing as an affront. McCain went off the rails on the Senate floor immediately afterward. A number of House Rs are fuming.

What I find interesting is that Grover Norquist has been flapping his lips over how this small deal will be ok because they're going to rake Obama over the coals on the debt ceiling, sequester, and continuation processes. I think he just told Grover to STFU.
reasoning logic
 
  1  
Reply Mon 31 Dec, 2012 01:30 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Quote:
I enjoyed Obama's presentation..


the audio

Obama's Fiscal Cliff Speech Deal Emerges in 'Fiscal Cliff' Talks



0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Mon 31 Dec, 2012 01:39 pm
@Frank Apisa,
He does a good job of being popular which is a sure sign of a growing deficit.

As you correctly surmise Frank it is only the "middle class" that can address the deficit and hence nothing is happening unless the MC are squealing and fighting among themselves.

I presume your income is less than $250,000.
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Mon 31 Dec, 2012 01:41 pm
@JPB,
He quite literally told them to "shove it." He did it cleverly...but he did it...and got an appreciative laugh from the audience for doing so.

The Republicans are beating a dead horse here. Newt Gingrich ought to give them a good dressing down...and tell them what to expect if they keep this crap up.
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  2  
Reply Mon 31 Dec, 2012 01:45 pm
@spendius,
Quote:
Re: Frank Apisa (Post 5213463)
He does a good job of being popular which is a sure sign of a growing deficit.


Reagan's terms seem to confirm that. Clinton's seem to indicate it is bull.


Quote:
As you correctly surmise Frank it is only the "middle class" that can address the deficit and hence nothing is happening unless the MC are squealing and fighting among themselves.


I suspect eventually the middle class will realize this is about them...and that they will have to pick up the bill.

I also suspect they are going to give the top 1% a swift kick in the ass...and get them to pony up much, much more than they want.

But the burden eventually will fall on the middle class.

Quote:
I presume your income is less than $250,000.


You presume correctly...and by a considerable margin.
0 Replies
 
JPB
 
  1  
Reply Mon 31 Dec, 2012 02:06 pm
McConnell calling for dealing with the tax portion only and saving spending/sequestration for another day.

Dow is up 150

House Rs will probably balk at no spending. Some Ds might balk at 400/450

Interesting day...
JPB
 
  1  
Reply Mon 31 Dec, 2012 02:45 pm
Details of the McConnell-Biden deal


Here are the details of the tax agreement between McConnell and Biden, according to a Republican aide:
• Permanent extension of current policy on rates for those below $400k (single), $450k (married).
• Permanent 15% rate on cap gains & dividends for those below $400k (single), $450k (married).
• 20% capital gains & dividends for those above $400k (single), $450k (married).
• Permanent extension of PEP & Pease for those below $250k (single), $300k (married).
• Death tax at $5M exemption but a 40% Rate
• Permanent AMT patch
• Finance Committee tax extender package
• 5 year extension of American Opportunity Tax Credit (AOTC), Child Tax Credit & Earned Income Tax Credit.
• One year extension of 50% Bonus Depreciation

I notice it doesn't mention specifically if rates revert to Clinton rates above 400/450, or some other rate.

It ain't over until two houses vote.
0 Replies
 
JPB
 
  1  
Reply Mon 31 Dec, 2012 02:52 pm
@JPB,
JPB wrote:

McConnell calling for dealing with the tax portion only and saving spending/sequestration for another day.


which takes Obama's "shove it" and calls him on it.

Quote:
Remember, at the White House this afternoon, President Obama issued a pretty clear ultimatum in the fiscal cliff fight. “Revenues have to be part of the equation in turning off the sequester,” he said.

That demand infuriated Republicans. They said Obama moved the goalposts. He was certainly strong-arming them — arguably even attempting to saddle them with the blame if they rejected the demand and the deal fell apart.

McConnell’s move more or less flips the script. Now if Obama and Democrats decide to insist on including the sequester in a single New Year’s Eve deal, they’ll be the ones objecting to an extension of middle-income tax cuts. After spending months smacking Republicans for holding those tax cuts hostage.

That’s going to be hard to explain away. But if Obama and Harry Reid take McConnell up on his offer, he’ll have nothing, other than his own power of persuasion, to force Republicans to accept any new revenues for anything next year. Not to turn off the sequester. Not to do further deficit reduction. Not if Republicans pick a debt limit fight.

It’s a gut check moment for Obama. If he means what he says that he won’t negotiate with Republicans over the debt limit, this might not be such a bad offer to accept. But if he has any doubts, then he’s either got to say no, or prepare to take a beating in the next few months. TPM


back to a straight up-and-down vote on 200/250, anyone?
hawkeye10
 
  -2  
Reply Mon 31 Dec, 2012 02:57 pm
@JPB,
Obama simply cant resist being a dick. This is not a good thing.

Quote:
But with this Congress, that was obviously a little too much to hope for at this time,” Obama said, adding that perhaps “we can do it in stages.”

Congressional Republicans immediately pushed back, objecting to comments that one GOP senator described as “heckling Congress.”

http://www.washingtonpost.com/business/fiscal-cliff/biden-mcconnell-continue-cliff-talks-as-clock-winds-down/2012/12/31/66c044e2-534d-11e2-8b9e-dd8773594efc_story.html?hpid=z1

congress has big problems to include image problems, but here we see obama rubbing their faces in it for no other reason than he gets his rocks off by doing it. a good leader he most certainly is not! we all recall how he pulled this exact same stunt with the Supremes.
JPB
 
  1  
Reply Mon 31 Dec, 2012 03:14 pm
@hawkeye10,
Well, the House responded by taking their ball and going home. No votes tonight on the FC in the House even if there is one in the Senate.

The stock markets are closed tomorrow.
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Mon 31 Dec, 2012 03:17 pm
@hawkeye10,
Quote:
Mr. McConnell was instrumental in all but securing a deal that would head off most of the fiscal punch if Congress could get it passed. When Senate Democrats all but walked away from negotiations, he reached for the phone and called Vice President Joseph R. Biden Jr. to find a new Democratic negotiating

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/us/politics/debt-reckoning.html#sha=b82f6807d

this cant be true...according to the A2K braintrust the Dems are pretty groovy and the Rupubs SUCK!
0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Mon 31 Dec, 2012 03:19 pm
@JPB,
JPB wrote:

Well, the House responded by taking their ball and going home. No votes tonight on the FC in the House even if there is one in the Senate.

The stock markets are closed tomorrow.

irrelevant, as the tax law can be applied retroactively and all that the markets require (by open wed) is a deal that likely will be approved.
0 Replies
 
JPB
 
  1  
Reply Mon 31 Dec, 2012 03:27 pm
Yes, but we're no longer talking about extending the Bush tax cuts. Those expire tonight. Now we're talking about Obama's tax cuts which certain quarters have been suggesting was the goal all along.
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Mon 31 Dec, 2012 03:32 pm
@JPB,
JPB wrote:

Yes, but we're no longer talking about extending the Bush tax cuts. Those expire tonight. Now we're talking about Obama's tax cuts which certain quarters have been suggesting was the goal all along.
again irrelevant...what is required is an agreement on what the tax code will say, who takes credit for suggesting it does not matter. then we will have to get an agreement on how much government to have and where to start to make the massive cuts which are unavoidable, and we have not even started to talk about that.

how much does this proposal close the gap between the government that we use and to government that we pay for?? 15%, maybe?? the rest will have to be done by cuts in government spending, our bankers will insist upon it, and morality insists that we stop with this abuse of our kids and grandkids by loading them up with our debts.
 

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