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Is free-will an illusion?

 
 
Reply Sun 26 Aug, 2012 12:57 pm
Is free-will an illusion? Personally I have a deterministic view and see free-will as incompatable, but I want to know your opinions. If you believe in free-will, then why? If you don't believe in free-will, then why?
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Type: Question • Score: 42 • Views: 84,018 • Replies: 2,643

 
dalehileman
 
  2  
Reply Sun 26 Aug, 2012 02:07 pm
@MoralPhilosopher23,
Since free will and determinism are diametrically incompatible the issue is probably semantic. However to adopt a deterministic attitude would seem to bode a hopeless existence
TimeTravel
 
  -2  
Reply Sun 26 Aug, 2012 02:58 pm
@MoralPhilosopher23,
As I am created in God's own image I shall realize this and answer this as a God. Yes free will is an illusion, an ill lose Zion, and an ill loose Shun
Since I am God I can expand all language as any algebraic equation as I am omnipotent, all knowing, awesome, and I won't even mention handsome;
Since I control all ID and EGO is where your confusion comes from ...
I shall explain why your ability to control your own EGO shall never really constitute free will because
1) I knew you would disobey me before you were born
2) I already planned out all consequences of your disobedience
3) You have limited ability to obey my 707 laws and that is a vital part of my plan, for example, that smokers are evolving better lungs, for me,
according to my plan, as I am an Epic Troll, God, with all my names.
4) Good and Evil are both my creation, and under my total control,
but since I am training you I allow you to think you have freedom, so you can prove yourself that you should have obeyed my covenants
5) if you take the wrong path I shall make you relive your life over and over and over until you get it correct, and always I totally control the ID
6) my will shall be done is the 4th Newtons law of physics
7) this is my Uni Verse and Uni was an Etruscan Goddess who turned me on, and in my Uni Verse, i am A man, so my name is i am, and Aman, and because I can see I have also been called ISE, when I teach others to see then become called SEERS, I am a Teacher, which means Rabbi. Because I am a Rabbi, I like Scrabble, and I love to Babble about illusions like free will;
8) Dis means hell and the devil, now if you do not obey my covenants, they you shall DIS OBEY i shall punish you severely, and you might end up addicted to nicotine, crack, smack, caffeine, or cane sugar. You seemed to have forgotten all your Latin Greek and Hebrew, and you forgot Sumerian and Japanese ( that 10,000 year old isolate language )
9) As I mentioned I control YIN and YANG, yes that means even as I control ID, I also control EGO anytime I want, so if ever you feel free from my all powerful total control over time, matter, energy, and space, then it is only an illusion that I use to train you to become a God in my image, which is what you are.
10) I love Drama and Rama is one of my other names. RAMA just means RA ME yes me again, the Egyptian Sun God, okay I admit it I love drama and role playing, so I have came here as Queue and assumed 10,000 Deities, like Prometheus and Zeus ... that was awesome and very fun, that gig.
11) You are a vital part of my body, and quite attached. Maybe if you studied more Tibetan and Chinese you might see Confucius was just me at a summer camp for little boys. Anyways, free will is a Dis Abel ling illusion, and did you ever hear the story of Cain killing Abel ??? lets see how easy I can make this ...
12) Cain kills Abel is code for Hell Man's and Cains Mayonnaise contains omega 6 fats and if Abel is too stupid to obey me I shall feed him Hell Man's and Cains until he dies 100 times evolving my liver to be much better.

In a nut shell, if you refuse to obey me, your God, you shall obey my angry evil employee the Devil, and he never sleeps, and all sins you ever commit shall be used for the benefit of all life in the Universe. This is called tough love. I just killed you 350 times in 350 generations in only 7000 years, and you cannot even remember it, because I am repressing half your DNA to keep you from hurting yourself, because you are just a baby God. Reality to you is a function of your random access memory, while reality for me, is infinite, and expanding all the time. You could have asked me to tell you how to harness nuclear fusion to give mankind unlimited energy to cure every disease.
MoralPhilosopher23
 
  3  
Reply Sun 26 Aug, 2012 07:47 pm
@TimeTravel ,
With all due respect, I cannot take you seriously with your rediculous posts. I really think that you are an atheist trying to mess with other atheists for the fun of it and I'm not against that if it makes you happy. However, if you are being serious, then I am very shocked at your level of human understanding.
MoralPhilosopher23
 
  2  
Reply Sun 26 Aug, 2012 07:56 pm
@dalehileman,
Well David Hume as well as Shelly Kagan and many other unfluential philosophers believe in compatibilism which is a philosophical view that holds that free-will and determinism are compatable ideas. I, however, don't believe that they are compatable because free-will includes to many confusions. Every experience that we have alters our perception of reality, so it is logically impossible to know who you are 2 minutes from now just as it is impossible to know what your next thought is going to be. Also everything that you do in your future events will be a build up off of previous events whether you like it or not.

Not having free-will doesn't make my existence hopeless, it just makes it limited in ways. We all are limited in many ways though so I am not bothered. Our thoughts, for instance, are limited by our language. Do we have the free-will to change that? Our sight is limited and no one seems to be bothered by that so why should I be bothered that I lack free-will?
dalehileman
 
  2  
Reply Mon 27 Aug, 2012 10:09 am
@MoralPhilosopher23,
Quote:
Well David Hume as well as Shelly Kagan and many other unfluential philosophers believe in compatibilism which is a philosophical view that holds that free-will and determinism are compatable ideas.
Moral you’re to be congratulated for your erudition. For the benefit of the Average Clod (me) you might explain how they’re considered compatible

Quote:
I, however, don't believe that they are compatable because free-will includes to many confusions. .......as it is impossible to know what your next thought is going to be.......whether you like it or not.
I don’t think they’re compatible either. It’s interesting to note in this connection that the probability of a given outcome is reduced by the number of determinants. So if that number proves infinite, then there’s some hope for free will after all

Quote:
Not having free-will doesn't make my existence hopeless, it just makes it limited in ways.
I would certainly think so. By coincidence I had an deterministic acquaintance who wasn’t put off by the idea but looked forward to how it might unfold. But determinism might counter restraints in many ways too. For instance wouldn’t it be more likely to let you give in to temptation

Quote:
Our thoughts, for instance, are limited by our language. Do we have the free-will to change that?
Point well taken. However if we realize that’s the case, wouldn’t free will let us look into those limitations with a view to escaping them

Quote:
Our sight is limited and no one seems to be bothered by that so why should I be bothered that I lack free-will?
Because might be depressing to suppose your entire future is laid out in advance

But I still maintain it will eventually be shown the apparent incompatibility will prove merely a semantic issue
TimeTravel
 
  0  
Reply Mon 27 Aug, 2012 01:28 pm
@TimeTravel ,
I am not an atheist playing a joke. Actually I am role playing. Now if indeed you are created in God's own image, then you are a God. Isn't it about time you started acting like it and did some great things for a change?
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Mon 27 Aug, 2012 02:41 pm
@TimeTravel ,
Quote:
I am not an atheist playing a joke.


Okay.


Quote:
Actually I am role playing.


Okay.


Quote:
Now if indeed you are created in God's own image, then you are a God.


Actually, that does not necessarily follow, does it?



Quote:
Isn't it about time you started acting like it and did some great things for a change?


How does a "God" act? What are "great things?"
dalehileman
 
  1  
Reply Mon 27 Aug, 2012 03:26 pm
@TimeTravel ,
Quote:
I am not an atheist playing a joke. Actually I am role playing.
Of course tht’s perfectly ok but it’s not clear to whom you’re replying

Perhaps you mean Frank

Quote:
Now if indeed you are created in God's own image, then you are a God.
Indeed, responds the apodictical existential pantheist, or at least part of Her

Quote:
Isn't it about time you started acting like it and did some great things for a change?
Unfortunately perhaps Her activities are limited to only what’s possible, accounting for all the apparent failures like Frank and I

Nah Frank, joke, just jolly jest
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Mon 27 Aug, 2012 03:36 pm
@dalehileman,
Quote:
Nah Frank, joke, just jolly jest


Very Happy Wink
0 Replies
 
ughaibu
 
  -2  
Reply Mon 27 Aug, 2012 09:21 pm
@MoralPhilosopher23,
MoralPhilosopher23 wrote:
If you believe in free-will, then why?
Asking why a person believes in free will is sillier than asking why a person believes in the sun. All healthy human adults unavoidably assume the reality of free will and consistently demonstrate the success of that assumption. We can observe free will, and there is no reason, beyond the psychological, to doubt the reality of free will.
dalehileman
 
  1  
Reply Tue 28 Aug, 2012 10:07 am
@ughaibu,
Quote:
and there is no reason, beyond the psychological, to doubt the reality of free will.
There is, Ugh, and it’s called Cause and Effect

..and it’s very persuasive because as far as we know there aren’t any exceptions
TimeTravel
 
  0  
Reply Tue 28 Aug, 2012 10:50 am
@MoralPhilosopher23,
Of course you can't take me seriously. You possibly do not understand my jokes, and possibly you cannot tell when I am serious. And it is far too easy for me to start discussing things that you know nothing about. Maybe if you study Greek, Latin, and Old Norse, then we can discuss English. While infinite examples of my statements exist in nature, for even my wildest statements, but if you lack random access memory, or extensive preconditioning, it is as if we are speaking different languages. While I want to use words with 35 definitions, you demand my words each to have only one definition. You doubted me before I ever spoke. Okay, if I step off the podium, I might challenge you to choose 1 of my statements, specifically, to ask for an elaboration. One thing is certain, if ever God did chat with you, you would immediately say he is grandiose, ridiculous, wrathful, condescending, pompous, arrogant, and quite clearly, an epic troll. He might say in response; No **** Sherlock; get over it.
0 Replies
 
TimeTravel
 
  0  
Reply Tue 28 Aug, 2012 10:59 am
@Frank Apisa,
Hi Frank, I think you are correct that God's personality cannot be so easily used as a verb with any qualitative or quantitative meaning. " how does God act." Well to answer that I have assumed ALL God names that ever existed were the one God. I am studying all God names, and personalities. What I see is an infinite intelligence that can take multiple forms or personalities. For examples, we have Jupiter, Mars, Elohim, Yahweh, Brahma, Ise, Aman, Baal, Vishnu, Ganesha, Siva, Christ, Apollo, Thor, Buddha, Gudi, Ing, the list is huge. However I see a pattern emerging, where God is a kind paternal/maternal powerful generous being, who should not be mocked, on an average day.
TimeTravel
 
  0  
Reply Tue 28 Aug, 2012 11:09 am
@ughaibu,
The assumption of free will based on only observation and not logic is like a man moving in one direction, completely unaware that he is being followed, because he has not yet looked behind himself. Ignorance is said to be an opiate, causing a lack of awareness. Random access memory determines scope of consciousness. An ant cannot see the Earth, based on his observations, neither can a philosopher see an abstract concept based on that which he can see. A rat being tested in a labyrinth, like any human being, must eventually see beyond what his eyes can see, or he shall not get many little chunks of dog food.
Cyracuz
 
  1  
Reply Tue 28 Aug, 2012 11:24 am
@TimeTravel ,
Quote:
As I am created in God's own image I shall realize this and answer this as a God.


And that Arrow is how to start a conversation. Laughing
0 Replies
 
TimeTravel
 
  0  
Reply Tue 28 Aug, 2012 11:29 am
@Frank Apisa,
Regarding Great Things

Frank, to be quite frank, you make me think. This is good. Many Philosophy Trolls just throw insults then go watch Friends, but you answer questions with questions. You have done this before. What is a great thing? Yes this is relative. For a downs baby it is great and wonderful it they flush the toilet. But for people with a high IQ and a complete working body, it is still ... relative. To introduce myself I can say I won 300 awards, in school, Scouting, in Church, in the military, on the workplace. Most people assume I am either lying or insane, but that is simply because they are obsolete, because it is true. Maybe instead of asking how does God act and what is a great thing to do, we might just study cases of greatness. The pattern is immediately clear; greatness begins with nonconformity quite often, for to win a race, demands noncompliance with the limitations that hold back normal men and women. To win a scholarship demands nonconformity to the average apathetic student who did not even apply. Is an OSHA Whistleblower or a police informant a conformist? ... absolutely not. Frank, I won 10 Citizenship Awards, in elementary school, in Cub Scouts, in Boy Scouts, and then, in a College competing with 2000 peers. I think doing good things equates to " doing good deeds." That may mean serving soup at a soup kitchen, or sticking up for a picked on kid, and getting your jaw broke.
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Tue 28 Aug, 2012 11:30 am
@TimeTravel ,
Thank you for the response, Timetravel


Quote:
Quote:
Now if indeed you are created in God's own image, then you are a God.


Quote:
Actually, that does not necessarily follow, does it?



If you would, I would appreciate you addressing my comment here. I've seen you state this in another thread...and I never saw a reason for why you assert this. In my opinion, it does not logically follow.

Your comment would help me understand your reasoning.

ASIDE: This is a short story I've told a couple of times here in A2K, Timetravel:

I went to public school...and all Catholic kids who did not go to St. Bernard's (in my particular parish) were required to go to Sunday School after Mass on Sunday.

One day, Sister George, the nun teaching one of my classes was waxing eloquently on the omni-presence of GOD.

"God is everywhere...in every nook and cranny...in every space in the universe...blah, blah, blah."

I was eight or nine years old...and the information (with its implications for me) hit me like a ton of bricks. My hand shot up into the air and waved and waggled to get her attention.

She called on me.

"Well, if GOD is everywhere...in every little thing...then he must be in me...in every place of me. So I must be GOD."

Sister George never called on me again. I do not remember her response to my insight, but I do remember that I never ever got called on again in Sunday School.
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Tue 28 Aug, 2012 11:32 am
@TimeTravel ,
I'll get back to this response later. I'm interested in your response to my last response.
Krumple
 
  1  
Reply Tue 28 Aug, 2012 11:37 am
@dalehileman,
dalehileman wrote:
I don’t think they’re compatible either. It’s interesting to note in this connection that the probability of a given outcome is reduced by the number of determinants. So if that number proves infinite, then there’s some hope for free will after all


Easy to solve. When it comes to human action, thoughts, or feelings there is always a limited number of choices. There are no infinite possibilities when it comes down to how someone will respond or act in a situation or moment of choice.
 

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