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Several People Shot Near the Empire State Building

 
 
BillRM
 
  0  
Reply Mon 27 Aug, 2012 01:46 pm
@parados,
No there been a change dating back to the 1970s where the police started to like to play solders far more then to be peace keepers and law enforcement people.

Rapid fire weapons in most law enforcement situations is just a call for innocent bystanders to be kill or hurt.
Joe Nation
 
  2  
Reply Mon 27 Aug, 2012 01:56 pm
@BillRM,
yeah...I remember...sure...the cops started carrying semi-automatic weapons way, way before the gangs did.

Joe(are you wack?)Nation
0 Replies
 
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Mon 27 Aug, 2012 02:00 pm
@parados,
Interesting footnote the tower sniper in Texas that begin the idea of police as being outfitted like soldiers was deal with by counter fire by civilians with rifles from the ground and by one police officer and one arm citizen who climbed the tower and killed him.
parados
 
  1  
Reply Mon 27 Aug, 2012 03:33 pm
@BillRM,
You might want to double check your "facts".
mysteryman
 
  2  
Reply Mon 27 Aug, 2012 03:44 pm
@parados,
Actually parados, Bill is correct.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Whitman

Lustig Andrei
 
  1  
Reply Mon 27 Aug, 2012 03:46 pm
@mysteryman,
mysteryman wrote:

Actually parados, Bill is correct.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Whitman




In this case,yup.
0 Replies
 
parados
 
  1  
Reply Mon 27 Aug, 2012 04:05 pm
@mysteryman,
You might want to check all of Bill's facts vs wiki.
Yes, citizens returned fire.

But.. It was not one police officer and one citizen that climbed the tower. And there is no evidence that this lead to the militarization of police forces. Kevlar vests weren't available until the 70's. I recall most officers still carrying revolvers in the 70's. So I'm unclear what "militarization" he was referring to.
0 Replies
 
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Mon 27 Aug, 2012 04:29 pm
The full article below did not give credit to the civilian or "promoting " him to a cop but this article appearing in the police officers assoc of MI does agree that it was the start of police playing soldiers with creating SWAT teams in many cases using former soldiers.

http://www.poam.net/train-and-educate/2011/active-shooter-response-training/


The “Texas Tower” incident served as the catalyst that spurred many police departments to begin the development of special teams to deal with these critical “out of the ordinary” incidents.Within a few years, the Watts Riot in Los Angeles would cause the LAPD leadership to realize that they needed a specialized response to uniquely dangerous situations.By 1971, LAPD had officers assigned full time to the SWAT detail.Across the country, agencies with enough personnel were performing similar actions.In the late sixties and early seventies, the police departments had a pool of recently discharged Vietnam Veterans – combat tested troops – that would form the core of some of the most effective SWAT teams as they grew.

0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  0  
Reply Mon 27 Aug, 2012 06:26 pm
@parados,
parados wrote:
BillRM wrote:
parados wrote:
And their bullets would have magically stopped after hitting their intended target. Sure. I'll bet you go unicorn hunting too.


9 mm bullets are not rifle bullets and a human body would either stop or greatly slow such a round down.


That must explain why 16 bullets were fired, the target was hit 10 times and yet 9 other people were wounded.

I wonder if you people know the first thing about gun safety sometimes. No, really, the bullet will stop when I want it to just because I want it to.


Are you suggesting that the bystanders who were hit, were hit by bullets that passed through the intended target?

That's pretty unlikely. Hollowpoints are pretty good at not passing through people.
oralloy
 
  0  
Reply Mon 27 Aug, 2012 06:26 pm
@Joe Nation,
Joe Nation wrote:
Cops are trained to shoot that 12 pound trigger;


Wouldn't it be better to give them a trigger pull that was at least marginally sane?

Then, with the same amount of training, the cops could shoot even better yet.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  1  
Reply Mon 27 Aug, 2012 06:30 pm
@parados,
parados wrote:
For you to argue that somehow civilians will have the ability to shoot better shows a complete disregard for reality.


In reality, the NRA will prevent any regulations about the trigger pull on civilian guns. Unfortunately no one protects the NYPD from similar insanity.
oralloy
 
  -1  
Reply Mon 27 Aug, 2012 06:30 pm
@Joe Nation,
Joe Nation wrote:
Especially the ones who own their own militia uniforms.

Joe(especially those guys)Nation


At the moment, the states that have a militia, keep them as unarmed bodies, so there is no weapons training.

It'll take a Supreme Court ruling before militiamen are able to start gathering military weaponry.
0 Replies
 
parados
 
  1  
Reply Tue 28 Aug, 2012 09:35 pm
@oralloy,
I find it rather interesting that you are arguing that the only thing that affects aim is the trigger pull. Are you sure you really own guns and use them?
oralloy
 
  0  
Reply Tue 28 Aug, 2012 11:42 pm
@parados,
parados wrote:
I find it rather interesting that you are arguing that the only thing that affects aim is the trigger pull.


Only????

I have not made such an argument.
roger
 
  1  
Reply Wed 29 Aug, 2012 12:02 am
@oralloy,
Of course you haven't!

Oddly, something that isn't denied is treated as a fact around here.
0 Replies
 
parados
 
  1  
Reply Wed 29 Aug, 2012 07:00 am
@oralloy,
Then you are saying that the a person trained with a 12 pound trigger can aim better than someone without a 12 pound trigger? Because your argument clearly seemed to be that civilians simply by not having a 12 pound trigger would have had a better chance of hitting their intended target.
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Wed 29 Aug, 2012 07:13 am
@parados,
I read your posting a numbers of time and it make zero sense to me however for anyone used to a 12 pounds trigger or not used to such a trigger tend to shoot better with a far less trigger pull.

Have you ever fired a gun in your life?

For myself I never shoot my double action revolver in that mode to reduce the trigger pull but single action it instead.



0 Replies
 
roger
 
  1  
Reply Wed 29 Aug, 2012 10:22 am
@parados,
You went from this

parados wrote:

I find it rather interesting that you are arguing that the only thing that affects aim is the trigger pull. Are you sure you really own guns and use them?


to this

parados wrote:

I find it rather interesting that you are arguing that the only thing that affects aim is the trigger pull. Are you sure you really own guns and use them?


in one post, and try to pass it off as a paraphrase of your earlier false statement? That is not disagreement, ignorance or stupidity. That's dishonest, and I will keep it in mind if I ever read anything further from you.
roger
 
  1  
Reply Wed 29 Aug, 2012 10:28 am
@roger,
That lying dog pulled his post!
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  0  
Reply Wed 29 Aug, 2012 06:01 pm
@parados,
parados wrote:
Then you are saying that the a person trained with a 12 pound trigger can aim better than someone without a 12 pound trigger?


In most cases no.

I suppose if you give a gun with a sane trigger to someone with zero training, a trained person with a 12 pound trigger will shoot better.

But if the person with a sane trigger has even a little bit of competence, they should do better than someone stuck with a 12 pound trigger.



parados wrote:
Because your argument clearly seemed to be that civilians simply by not having a 12 pound trigger would have had a better chance of hitting their intended target.


Assuming a marginal amount of competence on the part of the civilians, yes.

A 12 pound trigger is a severe handicap.
0 Replies
 
 

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