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QUESTION:: WHY DOES THE MIDDLE CLASS VOTE AGAINST ITS INTERESTS?

 
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 9 Aug, 2012 07:02 pm
@hingehead,
Pretty accurate analysis from where I stand.
0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Thu 9 Aug, 2012 07:02 pm
@farmerman,
No, it makes far more sense that we should manage our economy from the bottom up.

I think I recall that you own your own business.

Do you allow it to run from the bottom up?

Who are the Oligarchs?
0 Replies
 
hingehead
 
  1  
Reply Thu 9 Aug, 2012 07:16 pm
@Lash,
Hi Lash

The link to the article is in the opening paragraph. Younge doesn't cite his source, but I imagine it's survey sample based. And you're not alone in thinking Younge is goofy.

If you'd read what I reported the Younge article said, you would see acknowledgement that fear is spread across the political spectrum.

Where I am agreeing with Younge is that the Romney campaign is using that fear as the major pillar of it's strategy, and that's probably their best bet.

Arguing against something I didn't say is not your best work.
hingehead
 
  2  
Reply Thu 9 Aug, 2012 07:20 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
Quote:
It's pretty simple: Their aspirations are for upward mobility.


I don't think that's an unreasonable assessment. That optimism in Americans has often confounded foreign commentators.

I guess this discussion is about is whether voting one way or another is going to enhance or denigrate the chances those aspirations are met.
Lash
 
  1  
Reply Thu 9 Aug, 2012 09:08 pm
@hingehead,
Hi Hinge,

I was enjoying dispassionate discussion about the issue so much that I was disheartened that you inferred I "argued against something [you] didn't say." Please excuse that miscommunication, and accept thanks for the balance of your discussion.

I agree that fear runs both campaigns....as usual. I'm growing to hate all political campaigns and resent the political system. Surely we have better, more qualified thinkers - men and women - than the ones who bubble to the top of these scurrilous events.
hingehead
 
  1  
Reply Thu 9 Aug, 2012 09:15 pm
@Lash,
Hi Lash

It was this bit that got my dander up

Quote:
Fear is not exclusive to the GOP. I think when people, such as yourself, fall on some really simple, insulting reason for why a mass votes, you are REALLY insulting a lot of people and yourself.


But your gracious response has disendandered me.

You make a good point about the quality of candidates for political life, but I can't help but think the problem is not with individuals per se, but more systemic. The success in modern political systems requires attributes that do not necessarily overlap, or even engage, the attributes of good governance.
0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Thu 9 Aug, 2012 10:21 pm
@hingehead,
Well put.

It's certainly possible that a Romney Administration may not put into place policies that foster such aspirations, but it is clear that the Obama Administration has no desire to.

Obama wants a populace content in it's class with the ultimate goal to have but two: One dependent entirely upon the largess of the Ruling Class AKA Him and his appointees, and the other the self same Ruling Class.

No doubt he will find some room to carve out a special sub-class for the appartchiks needed to keep the gears of the State moving.

How can Obama foster an environment to encourage upward mobility when he has made it clear that he believes the class at the end of the upward curve is evil?

In truth he will do whatever it takes to retain power, but should he win re-election, all democratic bets are off.

It has nothing to do with race but it will be quite ironic that the promise of the first black president turns out to be the reality of the first president to fundamentally defy democracy.

To the extent that he has a core value beyond satisfaction of his megolmania, it truly is to transform America, and his vision of a transformed America is quite different than that of the majoriuty of Americans.

I well appreciate that the foregoing smacks of the rants of a lunatic fringe, and maybe I'm a member of that fringe without acknowledgement, but this smells a lot like the Nixon years. The meglomaniacal Nixon was thwarted by a very public punch to his gut that sent him reeling, and, perhaps, a private recognition that his his hunger for power was placing his love of country in jeopardy.

Who knows? I'm certainly not an apologist for Nixon. Despite all the assanine assertions that Bush (or any other president for that matter) was our worst president, it is abundently clear to me that Nixon holds that dishonor.

The worst president allows his or her lust for power to challenge our Constitution. Nixon came close and so, I predict, will Obama if he wins re-election.

Crazy?

Maybe, but so were the critics of Nixon labelled...just not by the Left.

Rockhead
 
  1  
Reply Thu 9 Aug, 2012 10:26 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
a tune for my little buddy finn, and all of his tea party friends...

0 Replies
 
hingehead
 
  1  
Reply Thu 9 Aug, 2012 11:11 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
Hi Finn

I'll be putting that in my Outlook calendar for December 2016 and check then to see if your worst fears were realised. I'm guessing even you could acknowledge that many have the same fears about the Republicans' will to 'do anything to regain power'. Personally the voter ID stuff left me gobsmacked

http://www.businessinsider.com/jon-stewart-mocks-republicans-voter-id-laws-video-2012-8

Watch the Jon Stewart video.

I wince now remembering the right calling 'class war' on Obama. WTF is this? 'Oh, he did it first'?
engineer
 
  7  
Reply Fri 10 Aug, 2012 08:09 am
@Finn dAbuzz,
Finn dAbuzz wrote:
To the extent that he has a core value beyond satisfaction of his megolmania, it truly is to transform America, and his vision of a transformed America is quite different than that of the majoriuty of Americans.

I well appreciate that the foregoing smacks of the rants of a lunatic fringe, and maybe I'm a member of that fringe without acknowledgement, but this smells a lot like the Nixon years. The meglomaniacal Nixon was thwarted by a very public punch to his gut that sent him reeling, and, perhaps, a private recognition that his his hunger for power was placing his love of country in jeopardy.

Sigh. This does not "smack of the rants of a lunatic fringe", it is the rant of the lunatic fringe. I can understand disagreeing with his policies, I can understand not liking the man on a personal level, but there is no evidence or even a hint of evidence for the wild speculations above. Does Obama has an enemy list we don't know about? Has he been targeting journalists who disagree with him and either smearing them or locking them up? Are his political opponents disappearing? Does he have a secret cabal of extremely wealthy donors with hidden agendas who has been working behind the scenes for decades to put into place politicians at all levels and is pouring many millions into his campaign behind shadowy PAC's designed to hide his contribtor's identities? (Oh wait, that's Romney.)

Finn dAbuzz wrote:

In truth he will do whatever it takes to retain power, but should he win re-election, all democratic bets are off.

It has nothing to do with race but it will be quite ironic that the promise of the first black president turns out to be the reality of the first president to fundamentally defy democracy.

That people who otherwise are rational, common sense folk can be pursuaded to spout things like this is what I think is the biggest threat to democracy. Democracy is really in trouble when you can force feed enough misinformation to people to get them to thoughtlessly regurgitate and even amplify it. You have people voting themselves into poverty and celebrating their freedom at the same time. The Koch brothers must kick back in quiet satisfaction every day.
Finn dAbuzz
 
  2  
Reply Mon 13 Aug, 2012 04:47 pm
@hingehead,
Hello Hinge

Let's make a point of touching base on this in four years if Obama is re-elected.

That assumes I'll have free access to the internet.
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Mon 13 Aug, 2012 05:02 pm
@engineer,
Is there anything more precious in this forum than the affected use of "sigh?"

Well, yes he has an Enemies List and one we know about if we read Kimberly Strassel of the WSJ (but, sigh, you probably wouldn't deign to read such a source of right wing propoganda).

Even Nixon didn't lock up journalists, but despite about half of the population's belief that the MSM is in the tank for him, he is reported to believe they are obstructing the implementation of his vision.

No one persuaded me to belive anything.

Despite my consistent belief that the opponents of the folks I endorse are never as bad as the ultra-partisans would suggest, I have come to the conclusion that a re-elected Obama poses a threat to our democracy based on what I have observed.

I admit that I could be ridiculously wrong, and even hope that I am (although my greater hope is that he is not re-elected and that my fears are not put to the test), but it can happen here. It came close to happening here with Nixon and there is no reason to believe that we are immune to the sort of naked power plays that are common throughout history.

In any case you have disqualified yourself from any pretense of objectivity with your accusation directed towards Romney and your recitation of the Koch conspiracy tale.

You might would to reign in your partisanship the next time you choose to employ a sigh.
engineer
 
  4  
Reply Tue 14 Aug, 2012 01:40 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
Finn dAbuzz wrote:

Is there anything more precious in this forum than the affected use of "sigh?"

I use the sigh for exactly what it is. When otherwise intelligent people go completely off the deep end, I don't find it funny, I don't see it as proof that someone's a nut, I don't take any joy in it - it saddens me. That sigh is completely real although you clearly prefer I keep it to myself. I don't worry about this country because people don't agree with me or because Dave wants an arsenal or because there is income inequality or racial disparity. I worry because people have become convinced with no evidence at all in support and with plenty of evidence to the contrary that well intentioned people of differing opinions must be evil revolutionaries.
Finn dAbuzz wrote:

In any case you have disqualified yourself from any pretense of objectivity with your accusation directed towards Romney and your recitation of the Koch conspiracy tale.

The Koch brothers are pretty much out of the closet now and Romney's cadre of old rich white supporters is reasonably well documented, but my jab there is not so much that Romney has them or that there is something wrong about it as your assumption that Obama is beholden to them based on nothing but air. You say Obama is planning to take over our government on behalf of his secret supporters when there is no evidence of that. There is plenty of evidence that Romney is supported by well monied sources that are shielding their identies behind super PAC's but you ignore that. If you are really concerned about democracy in this country because our President has secret backers why isn't that rising up on your radar screen about Romney? You really have no counter argument other than to mock my "sigh". That should tell you something.
0 Replies
 
DrewDad
 
  2  
Reply Tue 14 Aug, 2012 02:13 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
Good lord.

Even if Obama were every bit as much of a power-hungry megalomaniac as Hitler, it would take an insane number of improbable events to make even a portion of what you fear come to pass.

Obama couldn't even overcome the obstructionist Senate, but he's powerful enough to make 1984 come to pass?

Get a frickin' grip.



I presume that your fear about "one [class] dependent entirely upon the largess of the Ruling Class" is all about the Affordable Care Act.

Look up from your little provincial view, turn off Rush Limbaugh and Glenn Beck for a couple of days, and take a look at the rest of the world. When I look at Britain, Canada, the Netherlands, Germany, France, Australia, etc. I do not see something to fear. I do not see folks afraid of their government; I see folks who can afford to go see a damned doctor.

On the other hand, when I look at Mexico, India, and most of Africa.... I definitely see something to fear.
gungasnake
 
  0  
Reply Wed 15 Aug, 2012 04:41 am
@Finn dAbuzz,
Quote:
Let's make a point of touching base on this in four years if Obama is re-elected.

That assumes I'll have free access to the internet.



Four more years of Bork Obunga and you won't have to worry about niceties and intangible things like freedom, we'll all be living in caves and worrying about how to make fire.

0 Replies
 
edgarblythe
 
  1  
Reply Wed 15 Aug, 2012 05:27 am
The far right wants to shut down practically all of government, with the exception of the military and persecuting planned parenthood, and they have the nerve to claim the president is mad with power? Chuckle. Also chortle.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 15 Aug, 2012 05:28 am
@DrewDad,
I don't fear Mexico, India, or Africa; been to all three countries more than once, and enjoyed the diversity of cultures, sites and sounds (including music), food, drink, and the people. As for Africa, I've been to Egypt twice, Tunisia, Tanzania, Kenya, Botswana, Zimbabwe, Zambia, and South Africa once. The game parks in Africa are fantastic! I don't visit the border cities of Mexico any more, but do visit the east and west coast resort cities, and Mexico City. I've been to India three times, and have seen most of the country - probably spent over 40-days total. It's a fascinating country with much to offer if one can overlook the poverty and trash in most large cities. Their temples, palaces, and many of their hotels are first rate. Their food is much improved since my first visit in 2001.

I really don't fear those three countries.
0 Replies
 
ehBeth
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Aug, 2012 08:39 am
@farmerman,
I'm listening to a great radio feature on the Gatsby curve.

I think it's worth a listen. The link to the podcast is here ...

http://www.cbc.ca/day6/blog/2012/08/17/the-gatsby-curve/

They interviewed Miles Corac among others.
Quote:

In general, the more unequal a society, the lower generational mobility: in other words, the more likely the members of the next generation will occupy the same position in the earnings distribution as their parents.
(This particular graph refers to fathers and sons.)

But the other thing to notice is that the United States is among the most unequal and the least mobile of the rich countries, with about 50% of a father’s earnings advantage (or for that matter disadvantage) being passed on to the son.

In Canada this is about 20%, less than half the US figure. The Canada – US comparison is probably the most apt, and I discuss the details in a research paper published by the Economic Mobility Project of the PEW Charitable Trusts. The reason for the difference: in the United States children of the very rich are more likely to grow up to be rich, and children of the poor are more likely to stay poor.

These facts are finally starting to percolate into the American consciousness. Joseph Schumpeter, the Harvard University economist who taught during the 1930s, is often cited as saying that recessions are like cold showers: they clear the economy of inefficiencies, make the existing structures more apparent, and set the conditions for change.

But recessions have social as well as economic consequences. The current recession has shaken some people awake, and Occupiers signal the decline of the American Dream in our consciousness, a manifestation of underlying realities, and the demand for a change in the way of doing business.


http://milescorak.com/2011/11/17/inequality-and-occupy-wall-street-5-decline-of-the-american-dream/

http://milescorak.com/2012/01/12/here-is-the-source-for-the-great-gatsby-curve-in-the-alan-krueger-speech-at-the-center-for-american-progress/

Quote:
In the New York Times earlier this year, Paul Krugman wrote of an economic effect called "The Great Gatsby curve," a graph that measures fiscal inequality against social mobility and shows that America's marked economic inequality means it has correlatively low social mobility.


http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/2012/may/25/american-dream-great-gatsby




In other words - in the U.S. - if you're poor, your children are more likely to be poor than the poor in other developed countries.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  -1  
Reply Sat 18 Aug, 2012 10:06 am
@farmerman,
farmerman wrote:
QUESTION:: WHY DOES THE MIDDLE CLASS VOTE AGAINST ITS INTERESTS?

The teabaggers for eample, seem to be obsessed with rules that will probably NEVER affect them. Do they all believe that they shall , one day, be part of the 1% ers.


They likely disagree with the premise that the Democrats are what is best for the middle class.

I know that Democrats think that Democrats are best for the middle class, but that does not mean everyone agrees with them.


Beyond that point, there is more to voting than just economics. I for one have never voted on economic issues.

Historically, the main reason I've voted for Republican candidates is because they were the ones who were endorsed by the NRA.

In 2000, I voted straight ticket Republican for the first time ever, because I was so outraged at the way the Democrats were waging McCarthyist witch hunts and making sure Clinton was allowed to commit any felony he wanted in the White House.

In 2008 and 2010, I voted straight ticket Republican because the Democrats maliciously disenfranchised Michigan in the 2008 Presidential Primary.
oralloy
 
  -1  
Reply Sat 18 Aug, 2012 10:10 am
@RABEL222,
RABEL222 wrote:
CI has this nailed. You cant cure stupid.


Irony.
0 Replies
 
 

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