What is the greatest country on Earth?

Pffft!

Well, there is the Grand Duchy of Fenwick.

How do u define: "great" ?





David

wud be up to u to define. I just get to ask the question and if I defined it, then the question wud change.

No. It wud only clarify the question,
making it UNDERSTANDABLE.

I met a traveller from an antique land,
Who said—“Two vast and trunkless legs of stone
Stand in the desert. . . . Near them, on the sand,
Half sunk a shattered visage lies, whose frown,
And wrinkled lip, and sneer of cold command,
Tell that its sculptor well those passions read
Which yet survive, stamped on these lifeless things,
The hand that mocked them, and the heart that fed;
And on the pedestal, these words appear:
My name is Ozymandias, King of Kings;
Look on my Works, ye Mighty, and despair!
Nothing beside remains. Round the decay
Of that colossal Wreck, boundless and bare
The lone and level sands stretch far away.”

Percy Blysshe Shelley

Percy Blys

It's still only a really small percentage of Australians that toot Australia's horn.

But...there is a widespread culture of irritation, and frustration...that is govt's fault, but inevitably blamed on minority cultures, where the govt - lets make it a bunch of great danes (for the majorities size) - they all roll over like a submissive puppies and say to the Jack Russells, the Mini Foxies, and the Beagles "We can't have my own culture because it might offend you'...then looks at the other much smaller dogs and say "but hey, do whatever you like, cause I have to respect your culture".

30 years of a one way street of submission can frustrate anyone....and psychology shows that when people feel powerless to change something that's insulting/disrespectful/derogatory (etc) to them - they blame the easiest target (in this case, minority groups). And yes, what I'm saying is that the govt actions actually foster racism.

One of the weirdest submissive actions I've seen in recent years, the the adoption by govt dept's of the term 'Family Name' on forms, in place of 'Surname' - because Asians use the term Family Name. Asians are still muchly a minority here, and if you ever have a look at their passports, in the English translation part, they use the term 'Surname'. It makes no sense, but it is symptomatic of the submissive mindset of the govt.

Seems to me the culture of irritation etc. is more a heap of formless existential angst that looks desperately for any scapegoat and doesn't care too much what it is.


I think some of the multi-culturalism changes we have made can be a bit of a pain if you're looking to be pained, just like a whole lot of other things are, but I think this country has gained enormously from a more inclusive mentality.

It's natural to find change difficult.

I disagree that the strident nationalism comes from established migrants....I think they are, generalising ridiculously, a bit more inclined to resent the wave immediately after them, but I don't see them as particularly responsible for what I was talking about.

I am referring to a kind of yahoo sub-culture... People like Howard surfed this ugly wave in order to gain power. It's been around before...the 1890's being a prime example...but that, I think, was about cutting the apron strings with the UK and generally feeling small on the world stage.

I'm not really a Yankees fan, George . . . i was only looking for the appropriate needle . . .

I was taking about the Duchy of Grand Fenwick, totally different bunch.

How is family name any more of a surrender than using surname? Surname comes from surnom, which is French. Why do you prefer French to English? How is it a surrender to use family name, but wasn't a surrender to adopt surname? I'd say that, as the Wabbit has suggested about others, you're looking for something to get peeved about.

Well, every one may think his/her country is the greatest country on Earth.

Bingo!

I think that's nonsense. If you see that as a "submissive action" then you just don't understand how the minds of form-producing paper pushers work. In the U.S. the accepted term on official documents is "last name" (not "surname" or "family name"). A friend of mine who happens to have two university degrees was filling out an application for a visa to a Commonwealth country and came across the term "surname." He actually turned to me and asked whether that meant "last name," This is no dummy but a person who has had little experience with idioms other than American.

I suspect that the Australian government opted for "family name" rather than "surname" for ease of understanding. Could it be there are some Aussies who don't quite understand what "surname" means either? Family name is a self-explanatory term.

Not only that, but many states in the US provide voting ballots in many different languages.



We are a nation of immigrants; from all around the world. Many students from Asia learn quickly, and are the top students of their class by the time they graduate high school.

From onlinelibrary.com.

I don't see it as a result of culture, but of basic human nature. I see similar patterns everywhere that such systems exist. I find it somewhat frustrating that people 'blame' others for 'scapegoating' without understanding the mechanisms that lead to it...because without addressing the mechanisms, it doesn't matter how much money they throw into 'education' - they are spending their money on the wrong thing, and will never solve the problem (though, ameliorate may be a much better word to use)

I see patterns of discomfort with anything different that clashes too much with what we are comfortable with - there are consistent examples of this in every society in the world, and every subculture of every society...this may seem absolutely obvious, but a lot of people don't differentiate this discomfort with another culture from racism - when they are in fact two different things. It's how the discomfort is handled that can become racist.

But calling 'racist' is almost totally pointless (and can be very counter-productive because you just cause the reason to be hidden but not done away with) until you address the underlying reasons for discomfort. Educating one side to respect the other, without educating the other side to respect the former...won't work. It just increases the discomfort, and produces confusion, tension, frustration, and anger.

What I'm saying is that the current govt culture / way of dealing with integration, respect, and racism...is racist (towards the australian majority), lacking in respect (towards the Australian majority), and places little emphasis on true integration (which goes both ways), and results in more racism being generated - this culture of dismissing your own culture and demanding respect for every culture but your own, inevitably results in a backlash against the minority cultures you are trying to integrate.

It also results in the minorities disrespecting the majority (ie racism from the minority groups towards the majority group)...any time you consistently show disrespect for yourself, other people will give you a similar amount of disrespect (why should anyone respect you if you don't respect yourself?).

There are much better ways of integrating immigrants into a peaceful, respectful co-existance, and it must involve two way respect, not a one way respect. It must involve two way tolerance, not a one way tolerance.

And despite that, it is also true to say that when you emmigrate to a country, you should learn something about the country, and you should be able to respect the country, and make an effort to integrate into it...as it is you that are choosing the country, and not the other way around. People the world over understand this concept.

There's a balancing act, but respect both ways (rather than one way) is central to peaceful, and eventually (hopefully) enjoyable co-existance.

Uh, no...I dare say you didn't read what I wrote. Even Asian countries list on their passports the surname, as Surname (in the English translation part) - they recognise our culture & language, even while we don't.

Americans probably don't use it because your govt appears to try to make everything American, the english language included. The use of the term Surname has been around for hundreds of years, and is (or was) taught in every Australian school.

In terms of 'making it simpler to understand' - if a person can't figure out what 'surname' is when it's right next to 'first name' or 'christian name'...that's more a reflection of their own problem solving abilities than a problem with the term (which again, has been around for hundreds of years).

And in terms of changing things because someone from another country is unfamiliar with it - I would also point out that a large percentage of Americans are geographically illiterate, and that's no reason to change borders to countries. A large percentage can't tell one English speaking countries accent from another (this ones from personal experience) but that is no reason to change another countries accent - excessive examples to make a point that not everything has to be changed to make it easier for people understand (especially when it's so easily understandable in context)

A small thing...but it's very similar to the way so many things are going - to a blandness lacking in history, culture, and pride (pride is good when properly nurtured - it's necessary to assertiveness)

Well, I don't think it is just cultural either, and certainly many immigrants behave in a racist way towards Australians as well as Australians behaving in a racist way towards immigrants. I agree that there are certain Australian core values that it is reasonable to expect people to respect if they are choosing to settle here. If we expect them not to be racist or culturally intolerant, I suggest that we should be prepared not to be those things either. I think there's people of all backgrounds doing bloody well at this, and others doing bloody badly.

However, I think that making reasonable changes that reflect the reality that Australia is choosing to accept people from many different cultures is only logical.

I'd be interested to see some actual examples of the kinds of unreasonable changes you believe we have made. If family name is a good example of what you are talking about then I don't think you have much of a case in arguing that the majority is being expected to accept unreasonable changes.

Hmmm...that was just the first thing that came to mind as an example of lack of pride in culture, and you do realise that is not the main point I am making?

You do realise my main point is that all 'demands' of respect should go both ways? That all education about acceptance of other cultures should go both ways? And that not doing so is counterproductive?

And you do also realise that I'm black? (I'm sure I've mentioned it in one of your threads before) ...and yet, I've only experienced one incident of racism in 40 years...that was back in high school, and the guy who called me 'nigger' I actually felt sorry for (considering it's meaningless here in Australia, belonging to a race that is virtually non-existant over here). That said - I don't see many generalisations as racism (depending on the nature of the generalisation)...as the ability to generalise and still distinguish individualness is something I find extremely common.

But in terms of one way discrimination & foregoing of culture :

Over the years :
- the Anti-Discrimination Act of 1971 that made it discrimination against everyone bar white Australian Males English speaking males unlawful
- the Equal Employment Opportunity Acts which make everyone more equal than white Australian Males in terms of employment
- 'removing' any number of things because it might offend immigrants - these seem to pop up at the rate of 2-3 per year, but I don't recall those for you. There has almost never been a call from the govt for a minority culture to remove one of it's cultural objects / activities
- Awards for ethnic literary writing, but no comparable ones for white Australians authors. This resulted in the Helen Demidenko fiasco in 1995
- the constant screams of racism whenever someone says that there is a problem in any community (other than white Australia). There is never any when someone from a minority community has a problem with the majority culture
- popping up more frequently, are shopping centres removing christmas displays because they 'don't want to offend other cultures' - this is symptomatic of a greater political correctness (or in this case, cultural submission)
- lack of action against minority cultures who constantly harass white Australians. Talk to anyone from Cronulla, and that riot was initially peaceful in protest at the lack of action at a constant victimisation of white Australians by a portion of the Lebanese community after they bashed a Surf Lifesaver. The protest was hijacked by actual racist elements, that most people in Cronulla believe were from outside of Cronulla (a friend of mine lived in Cronulla during those years). In other words, the main core of it was actually peaceful protest -for a reason. The media of course, focused on the violence.
- constant teaching/preaching to 'respect other cultures' but not apparent effort to teach/preach to other cultures to respect the majority culture (this has changed a little in the past few years, but only in relation to arabic cultures to try to abate terrorism threats)
- until recently, little to no attempts by the govt to facilitate integration, expecting that telling white Australia to respect the rest is enough (even now, they don't do enough to facilitate integration)
- Police Forces allowing people of different religions to wear religious head scarfs (in this instance I know that Sikh are allowed to wear their, ah, turban thingy). Since when is the police force a religious organisation? - it is purely secular and both recognise itself as such and be recognisable as such.

Well, that's what I can think of off the top of my head. Over the years I'd noted many other instances, but as I never actually thought I'd bother writing about it, I didn't store them for future reference.

Pay attention, and you'll see plenty of similar things over the years.

it all depends on what it is based. America is the worst country as they are always at war with other countries !
For me the greatest country in the world is Dubai .. it's amazing how they turned a complete desert into a tourist destination.