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Libertarian Party

 
 
L R R Hood
 
  1  
Reply Tue 2 Mar, 2004 06:08 pm
Re: Libertarian Party
Thomas wrote:
joefromchicago wrote:
But, of course, in a truly Libertarian society, there would probably be no governmental supervision of charities, so you'd never be quite sure if your contributions would be going to worthy causes or into the pockets of some unscrupulous huckster.

I smell a fallacy. You appear to argue that if X isn't done by government, X doesn't get done. The reality is that there are quite a few watchdog organizations -- Consumer report, Amnesty International, and others -- who seem to do a reasonably good job. I don't see any good reasons why charity watchdogs have to be employed by the government to do their job. What, in your opinion, would be obviously inferior about a "Charity International" or a "Charity Report"?

joefromchicago wrote:
And yet it appears you remain naive about the full ramifications of Libertarianism.

I have no trouble with your earlier point that the LP is pretty far out. But if you widen your claim to be about libertarianism in general, I wonder if it isn't you who are naive about the ramifications of having the government run things. Of course, we would both need to get more specific to argue that out.


Well said! To add... I've noticed that when the government employees get involved in things, important things DON'T get done. Look at the INS, USPS, Airport Security, Border Patrol, etc.
0 Replies
 
Jarlaxle
 
  1  
Reply Tue 2 Mar, 2004 08:17 pm
Personal experience today, consisting of a blown tire: keeping the roads maintained.

This is despite raising the gas tax recently, ostensibly for just that.
0 Replies
 
L R R Hood
 
  1  
Reply Tue 2 Mar, 2004 08:30 pm
Libertarians typically think that private companies would be better for things like road maintenance, and other public services... www.lp.org
0 Replies
 
joefromchicago
 
  1  
Reply Tue 2 Mar, 2004 09:07 pm
Re: Libertarian Party
Thomas wrote:
I smell a fallacy. You appear to argue that if X isn't done by government, X doesn't get done.

I argue no such thing. But I'd add that it's no more a fallacy than believing that the operations of the free market can do everything that the government does now.

Thomas wrote:
The reality is that there are quite a few watchdog organizations -- Consumer report, Amnesty International, and others -- who seem to do a reasonably good job. I don't see any good reasons why charity watchdogs have to be employed by the government to do their job. What, in your opinion, would be obviously inferior about a "Charity International" or a "Charity Report"?

One of the great problems in a free market is the hidden cost of information; one of the great benefits of government is that it can allocate those costs in a fair and efficient manner across society; and one of the great flaws with most libertarians is that they don't understand this.

Certainly, in a truly unregulated marketplace, independent watchdog groups could take over the functions that are currently the exclusive province of the government. In the area of regulation of charities, a "Charity Report" could oversee charities to make sure they were operating in an honest and ethical manner. But then who would bear the costs of the watchdog group, which are currently borne by the government?

Well, one could simply operate the watchdog organization as a charity. But then, of course, the average charitable giver would have no cause to repose more confidence in a charitable charity watchdog than in any other charity: if there is reason to suspect that ordinary charities are corrupt or dishonest, there would just as much reason to suspect the charity watchdog is likewise corrupt or dishonest.

Presumably, if the watchdog's imprimatur is perceived as a valuable mark of quality, the watchdog could charge the various charities that it oversees, in somewhat the same fashion that Underwriters Labs charges companies for the opportunity to get its seal of approval. But this kind of arrangement, where the watchdog is, in effect, in the pay of those it is obliged to oversee, obviously invites abuses, in much the same way that we would suspect the honesty and impartiality of a judge whose salary is paid by the litigants who bring their cases before him. Once again we must ask: who would watch the watchdogs?

Now, the doctrinaire libertarian would merely reply that the invisible hand of the free marketplace, which rewards the economically virtuous and strikes down the economically wicked, would eventually run the corrupt watchdog organizations out of business. But this vision of the efficient marketplace tends to ignore the hidden costs of information, which are currently borne by the government (through its ability to assess taxes on the general population) and shared freely with the public, but which would, in an unregulated marketplace, be unequally distributed throughout the populace.

As a consequence, the government now acts as both the watchdog and the watchdog of the watchdogs. And in its role as a reallocator of resources, the government acts to force down the costs of information. The libertarian, in contrast, proposes to replace the government's functions with the free interplay of capitalistic forces, where information costs are unequally borne by those who participate in the market. Those who have more money, then, will typically pay to have more information, while those with less money will be able to afford correspondingly less information.

Throughout the unregulated marketplace, information costs would be borne by those who choose to pay them. In the context of charitable organizations, the libertarian would, if pressed, acknowledge that people would either give their contributions without regard to the recipient's honesty (an inconceivable result given the basic libertarian premise of the rational economic actor) or would bear whatever information costs that are necessary to learn the recipient's true nature. Of course, these costs would be borne by each individual contributor for each contribution -- an inefficient allocation of resources that is, currently, avoided by the intervention of the state in its role as watchdog.

The doctrinaire libertarian, to be sure, typically ignores both the problem of information costs and the resulting inefficiencies involved in their unequal distribution. Indeed, libertarians tend to believe that, in the unregulated marketplace of which they dream, people will behave in much the same way as they do now in the regulated marketplace -- except that they'll all have more money. But it's naive to think changing the economic system will have no effect on economic behavior. And it's naive to think that people will, for instance, give as much money to charities in an unregulated market as they do now; indeed, there's a substantial reason to believe that they would give a good deal less.

Thomas wrote:
I have no trouble with your earlier point that the LP is pretty far out. But if you widen your claim to be about libertarianism in general, I wonder if it isn't you who are naive about the ramifications of having the government run things. Of course, we would both need to get more specific to argue that out.

Feel free to get as specific as you like. I find libertarianism weirdly fascinating and I'm happy to discuss it with you, Thomas.
0 Replies
 
ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Wed 3 Mar, 2004 01:13 am
Robert Taft, my mother was very enthused about him.

He was in a committee with Kefauver, or am I mixed up on the who's?

As it turned out, I tended not to agree with my mother, but this was all just before my time of attention, or slightly before.

Could any of you explain more about Taft?
0 Replies
 
L R R Hood
 
  1  
Reply Wed 3 Mar, 2004 06:28 am
I always wonder about people who trust the government to do a just and fair job, in any situation.
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Wed 3 Mar, 2004 09:15 am
Re: Libertarian Party
joefromchicago wrote:
One of the great problems in a free market is the hidden cost of information; one of the great benefits of government is that it can allocate those costs in a fair and efficient manner across society; and one of the great flaws with most libertarians is that they don't understand this.

Sadly but truly, most people don't care much about politics, so don't take much time to think through the implications of the policies they favor. This is as true for libertarians as it is for liberals, conservatives and Greens.

Among the people who do think their position through, I don't think you will find many libertarians that fit your description. For example, David Friedman is almost certainly what you would call a 'doctrinaire libertarian'. Basically he wants all government functions privatized little by little, until you get to a system he calls anarcho-capitalism. Friedman does mention information costs and transaction cost in his economics texbook Price Theory. Ronald Coase, whose paper "The nature of the firm" started the whole field of transaction and information costs, is frequently mentioned as a libertarian, though I haven't read any political articles by him so can't cite any source for that.

joefromchicago wrote:
In the area of regulation of charities, a "Charity Report" could oversee charities to make sure they were operating in an honest and ethical manner. But then who would bear the costs of the watchdog group, which are currently borne by the government?

It could be the members of the charitable organization, it could be the subscribers of the "Charity Report" magazine. Or it could be people on the internet who read newsgroups like soc.org.nonprofit for articles about the charities they consider donating to.

joefromchicago wrote:
Now, the doctrinaire libertarian would merely reply that the invisible hand of the free marketplace, which rewards the economically virtuous and strikes down the economically wicked, would eventually run the corrupt watchdog organizations out of business.

Why not? That's how private organizations currently do it with credit ratings. There are many more credit card holders than charities out there, so the hidden costs of information should be much higher for credit rating agencies. If it works for them, it should work for 'CharityWatch'.
0 Replies
 
flyboy804
 
  1  
Reply Wed 3 Mar, 2004 10:21 am
Since it was I who brought up the name of Bob Taft, it should be I who can give you a full run down on him, but being an old geezer with a fading and not always reliable memory I can not. I can tell you that he was the main opponent of Eisenhower for the republican presidential nomination and chairman of the senate labor relations committee (Taft-Hartley Act.) I'm sure one of the outstanding historians on A2K will give you more details. In the interim there's always google.
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Wed 3 Mar, 2004 10:27 am
Delightful dialogue between Joe from Chicago & Thomas concerning libertarianism, the limits of free markets and government. Both viewpoints are stimulating and refreshing, -- though I like Joe's avatar much more than Thomas'.

I believe that in the areas you are disputing (if that is the right word) we are approaching the limits of what is practically knowable. I have learned through experience in managing organizations that life is a good deal more complex than our theories and models permit, and human beings, in pursuit of their self interests as they perceive them, a good deal more inventive than both the designers of organizations & government and the philosophers who attempt to model their behavior. Repeatedly I have encountered organizational structures, designed well to deal with salient operational factors, run down and corrupted by the accumulated evasions, and workarounds of people at all levels. Moreover there is usually as much that is foolish and risky in these evasions as that which contributes to the intended goal of the organization or corporation. The invisible hand does indeed operate in the sum of all these independent actions, but not enough to avoid trouble in particular instances. Given enough time, the inintended side effects will dominate. (My thumbrule now in taking over a new organization is - if it has been centralized for five years, decentralize it: if it has been decentralized for five years, centralize it.)

That may be the rub. We live and deal with particular lives and particular situations - not the ensemble averages of all such things. Politics is always about the particular.


.
0 Replies
 
joefromchicago
 
  1  
Reply Wed 3 Mar, 2004 10:44 am
Re: Libertarian Party
Thomas wrote:
Sadly but truly, most people don't care much about politics, so don't take much time to think through the implications of the policies they favor. This is as true for libertarians as it is for liberals, conservatives and Greens.

Agreed.

Thomas wrote:
Among the people who do think their position through, I don't think you will find many libertarians that fit your description.

Most libertarians are not economists.

Thomas wrote:
It could be the members of the charitable organization, it could be the subscribers of the "Charity Report" magazine. Or it could be people on the internet who read newsgroups like soc.org.nonprofit for articles about the charities they consider donating to.

True, it could be all of these. But what is the economic incentive for people to become members of such an organization or subscribe to its reports? If, for instance, I decide that I will give $1000 to charity this year, what incentive do I have to spend anything more than a trivial amount of additional money on investigating potential recipients of my largesse?

Thomas wrote:
Why not? That's how private organizations currently do it with credit ratings. There are many more credit card holders than charities out there, so the hidden costs of information should be much higher for credit rating agencies. If it works for them, it should work for 'CharityWatch'.

An interesting analogy, but ultimately unconvincing (my example of Underwriters Labs was much closer to the mark). Credit reporting agencies, after all, sell economically valuable information, whereas a charity watchdog would do no more than sell information that is psychologically valuable (i.e. the watchdog would be selling "peace of mind" to concerned donors worried about potentially wasteful or dishonest charities). Of course, a price can be established for "peace of mind," but it is not a marketable commodity in the same way that credit reports are.

Donors, then, would need some sort of economic incentive to spend money to purchase the information that the watchdog possessed (and, bear in mind, that sum would be in addition to the money that they intended to donate). So the only way the watchdog could remain economically viable would be if donors value their "peace of mind" more highly than they value holding onto the money they otherwise would have given away. In other words, there must be a sufficient number of donors who would prefer to pay $1.00+x for a "safe" charitable contribution than who would prefer simply to keep $1.00 safely in their bank accounts.

Furthermore, although there are vastly more debtors than charities, the debtors themselves bear part of the costs of supplying their own credit information (through fees and other charges to creditors). Thus the information costs are spread in a way that information costs regarding charities would not be (unless, as I mentioned in my previous post, the charities bore part of the costs associated with the watchdog's activities -- a situation that, unfortunately, risks potential conflicts of interest).

In short, a charitable watchdog group could only operate in the same fashion as a credit reporting agency if: (1) there was some sort of economic incentive to purchase the watchdog group's services; and either (2a) the population of donors interested in purchasing the watchdog's services was sufficient to sustain the watchdog's operations; and/or (2b) the watchdog group had some means of spreading its costs to both the purchasers and the suppliers (i.e. the charities) of the information it sold.
0 Replies
 
ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Wed 3 Mar, 2004 10:51 am
Thanks, flyboy, I will google re Taft.
0 Replies
 
Fedral
 
  1  
Reply Wed 3 Mar, 2004 10:52 am
Good GOD, I would pay money to listen to Joe speak.

Joe,

You represent, in my opinion, one of the most well read and well written people on this board. Regardless of whether I agree or disagree with what you write, your arguments are always well thought out and clearly written. A total joy to read.

Thanks for all the time you must take in writing up your thoughts and views each day. Very Happy
0 Replies
 
Craven de Kere
 
  1  
Reply Wed 3 Mar, 2004 10:57 am
Re: Libertarian Party
joefromchicago wrote:

Most libertarians are not economists.


Most X are not economists.

Where X != economists and related professions
0 Replies
 
Relative
 
  1  
Reply Wed 3 Mar, 2004 02:49 pm
I find the idea of charity in an unregulated market environment questionable in the first place.
To trust mechanisms of free market to regulate everything by themselves means assigning monetary value to everything from feelings to moral norms. By giving away money one gains some moral satisfaction, but through the eye of a free market this is just a transaction, where a person is buying moral. So normally there would be marketing and commercials for that kind of 'business'. A business is not a charity.
0 Replies
 
Fedral
 
  1  
Reply Wed 3 Mar, 2004 02:59 pm
Does anyone really think that in a completely free market and unregulated economy that any companies/corporations would give much money to charities?

Most companies/corps. give to gain the tax breaks that such donations give them plus the public relations boost it gives.

In a true unregulated system, any company that donated large amounts of money to charities would place itself at an economic disadvantage against other companies that earmarked those 'charity monies' for expansion and improvements to make them more competitive.

Similar things go for the average tax paying citizen. Although, like many others, I would like to think that I would give more money to charities if the government took a lesser bite in the form of taxes, the truth is, I believe I would be using that money to help my sister through school, buy new tires for my vehicle, etc.

Like many people, I claim the charitable contributions on my income tax to gain the maximum return for my charity. That, other than the personal satisfaction, is the benefit of your contributions.
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Wed 3 Mar, 2004 06:29 pm
Re: Libertarian Party
joefromchicago wrote:
Most libertarians are not economists.

I was responding to your claim that most libertarians favor privatization of government functions because they fail to see what you call the 'hidden cost of information' involved. This claim implies, though you haven't explicitly said it, that people would be less inclined to be libertarians if they did consider those costs.

You are right about one thing: Most libertarians are not economists. But the people most qualified to think through the implications of information costs are, which is the reason I brought them up. I'd like to follow up on that; and since I don't know every economist out there, let me limit myself to those economists who have won Nobel prizes. If I counted correctly, four Nobel prizes have been awarded for work on the economics of information. One went to Friedrich Hayek, one to George Stigler, one to Ronald Coase (for his work on transaction costs, of which information costs are one prominent example), and one went jointly to Joseph Stiglitz, Michael Spence and George Akerlof. Hayek, Stigler and Coase are prominent (small-l) libertarians; Stiglitz and Akerlof have more or less liberal affiliations. And the politics of Spence I don't know.

My point is that among the people most qualified to asses information costs and their consequences, the share of libertarians is much larger than in the general population. Your theory would seem to predict it is smaller, so I see this as pretty strong evidence against your position. But I admit it is evidence short of proof.

joefromchicago wrote:
If, for instance, I decide that I will give $1000 to charity this year, what incentive do I have to spend anything more than a trivial amount of additional money on investigating potential recipients of my largesse?

One possibility is idealism -- nobody says that incentives have to be pecuniary to be economically significant. Another possibility is that you free-ride on the research by people who donate more money than you, so have stronger incentives. That's what I will do when buying a car. The ADAC, Germany's AAA equivalent, has a member magazine with extensive car tests, which I will read in the library.

joefromchicago wrote:
Furthermore, although there are vastly more debtors than charities, the debtors themselves bear part of the costs of supplying their own credit information (through fees and other charges to creditors). Thus the information costs are spread in a way that information costs regarding charities would not be

I don't follow that. A charity that plays straight has an incentive to signal its willingness to do so to potential donors. One of those signals could be the generous disclosure of internal information, just like credit card owners do.
0 Replies
 
edgarblythe
 
  1  
Reply Wed 3 Mar, 2004 08:41 pm
I am one who believes very much in a strong central government, balanced off by states rights. I believe we could not have made most of the gains we have made and also could not have survived as a nation without one. But now our survival as a free nation is in jeapardy. Our government cannot remain vital and responsive to its people when the people surrender their freedoms by increments to puppets of the military-industrial establishment.
0 Replies
 
joefromchicago
 
  1  
Reply Wed 3 Mar, 2004 09:33 pm
Fedral wrote:
Good GOD, I would pay money to listen to Joe speak.

Given my profession, people already pay to hear me speak Wink

Fedral wrote:
You represent, in my opinion, one of the most well read and well written people on this board. Regardless of whether I agree or disagree with what you write, your arguments are always well thought out and clearly written. A total joy to read.

Thanks for all the time you must take in writing up your thoughts and views each day. Very Happy

Thanks, Fedral, you made my day!
0 Replies
 
joefromchicago
 
  1  
Reply Wed 3 Mar, 2004 10:06 pm
Re: Libertarian Party
Thomas wrote:
I was responding to your claim that most libertarians favor privatization of government functions because they fail to see what you call the 'hidden cost of information' involved. This claim implies, though you haven't explicitly said it, that people would be less inclined to be libertarians if they did consider those costs.

Well, I don't know about that. I think most libertarians (at least in the US) are so far gone that nothing can bring them back to their senses.

Thomas wrote:
You are right about one thing: Most libertarians are not economists.

I suspect we may have a definitional problem arising here, Thomas. I am, by and large, talking about "libertarians" in the political sense: i.e. those persons in the US who identify either with the Libertarian Party or its principles. After all, the thread started out talking about the Libertarian Party. I presume that you are talking more in terms of "libertarians" in the economic sense. I'm sure there's a good deal of overlap between the two groups, but I am not familiar enough with economic schools to know where they coincide and where they might diverge.

Thomas wrote:
My point is that among the people most qualified to asses information costs and their consequences, the share of libertarians is much larger than in the general population. Your theory would seem to predict it is smaller, so I see this as pretty strong evidence against your position. But I admit it is evidence short of proof.

I wouldn't say that it's evidence short of proof, since I wouldn't call it evidence at all. What you've identified is, at best, an interesting bit of trivia. At worst, it is the result of a rather obvious pair of sampling errors.

Thomas wrote:
One possibility is idealism -- nobody says that incentives have to be pecuniary to be economically significant.

Quite true. Donors can be motivated not only by ideals but by prestige, honor, shame, envy, and faith. But when we're dealing with monetary transactions (even if the transaction involves donating the money), I think that pecuniary considerations are particularly relevant.

Thomas wrote:
Another possibility is that you free-ride on the research by people who donate more money than you, so have stronger incentives. That's what I will do when buying a car. The ADAC, Germany's AAA equivalent, has a member magazine with extensive car tests, which I will read in the library.

The problem with being a "free rider" is that it only works if some people are free riders. If, however, everyone expects someone else to pay the fare, then the ride's over. There is, consequently, no guarantee that there would be enough idealistically motivated people, in an unregulated marketplace, to bear the entire burden of providing free information for everyone else.

Thomas wrote:
I don't follow that. A charity that plays straight has an incentive to signal its willingness to do so to potential donors. One of those signals could be the generous disclosure of internal information, just like credit card owners do.

But why would the potential donors trust the information disclosed by the charity? After all, Enron showed its books to investors too. The only difference is that, in a libertarian economy, there would be no counterpart to the SEC.
0 Replies
 
latham
 
  1  
Reply Thu 4 Mar, 2004 09:46 am
I voted libertarian in 2000. Can't afford to this year. Every fiber of our collective being needs to be channelled to beat Bush.
0 Replies
 
 

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