0
   

It looks like Arafat was murdered by the Israelis after all. No surprise there.

 
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  4  
Reply Wed 9 Jan, 2013 05:37 am
@mysteryman,
mysteryman wrote:

When the Paestinians got recognized as an independent country, they lost all claim to any tax revenue from Israel.
There is no international law that says any country must trade with another. If the Palestinians want to collect tax revenue, its up to their own govt to collect it, its not up to Israel to collect it for them.
Thats like saying its up to the UK to collect tax revenue for the US.
It's not the same: Israel collects tariffs on foreign imports and value added taxes (VAT) on Israeli goods and services. And that is done under the terms of the 1993 Oslo accords.
Which certainly is something very different to "a country must trade with another".
oralloy
 
  -3  
Reply Wed 9 Jan, 2013 06:32 am
@Walter Hinteler,
Walter Hinteler wrote:
It's not the same: Israel collects tariffs on foreign imports and value added taxes (VAT) on Israeli goods and services. And that is done under the terms of the 1993 Oslo accords.
Which certainly is something very different to "a country must trade with another".


The UN and the Palestinians abrogated the Oslo Accords a couple months ago when the UN unilaterally recognized the Palestinians.

Anything that once relied on the authority of the Oslo Accords is now null and void. That includes 1967 borders, and any sort of negotiated solution.

That is why it is now OK for Israel to build in the E-1 area and split the Palestinian West Bank into northern and southern halves.
izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Wed 9 Jan, 2013 08:57 am
@Walter Hinteler,
You're not going to get much understanding from MM, I think he's being deliberately obtuse. Although why he wants to deny Palestinians statehood is beyond me.
Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Reply Wed 9 Jan, 2013 09:10 am
@oralloy,
oralloy wrote:

The UN and the Palestinians abrogated the Oslo Accords a couple months ago when the UN unilaterally recognized the Palestinians.
You have a quote for that?
oralloy wrote:

Anything that once relied on the authority of the Oslo Accords is now null and void. That includes 1967 borders, and any sort of negotiated solution.
If you've got a quote for my above question, then it's fine. Otherwise, you've a very strange - to say it mildly - idea about legal acts; and international law and treaties in particular.
Walter Hinteler
 
  3  
Reply Wed 9 Jan, 2013 09:43 am
@Walter Hinteler,
I think that I've found your source: Israel Hayom's astrologer predicts a bleak 2013 for the Oslo Accords
Quote:
"Following recent developments in our region, people have been talking about the validity of the Oslo Accords, which were signed on 13.9.1993 in Washington," the astrologist wrote. "The stars show that this vision is moving further away, and even though there are attempts to 'revive' it, this is artificial respiration. Reality will return and show that it has no chance."

On a second thought: even there is nothing about "null and void" ...
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  -1  
Reply Wed 9 Jan, 2013 09:46 am
@Walter Hinteler,
Walter Hinteler wrote:
oralloy wrote:
The UN and the Palestinians abrogated the Oslo Accords a couple months ago when the UN unilaterally recognized the Palestinians.


You have a quote for that?



oralloy wrote:
Anything that once relied on the authority of the Oslo Accords is now null and void. That includes 1967 borders, and any sort of negotiated solution.


If you've got a quote for my above question, then it's fine. Otherwise, you've a very strange - to say it mildly - idea about legal acts; and international law and treaties in particular.


I'm not sure what you are asking me to quote.

But I can explain: The Oslo Accords were based on the promise that both sides would act only in negotiated agreement, and neither side would try to get what they wanted by taking unilateral actions that the other did not agree to.

The UN's recognition of the Palestinians was just such a forbidden unilateral action.
izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Wed 9 Jan, 2013 09:48 am
@mysteryman,
mysteryman wrote:
There is no international law that says any country must trade with another.


Putting aside your deliberate obfuscation for a moment, Palestine has no choice but to trade with Israel, they are forced to buy Israeli goods and services, they are exploited much in the same way the Nazis exploited the Warsaw ghetto.

Egypt is forced to provide cut price gas to Israel, something which was fine during the Mubarak era, but now there is a semblence of democracy in place, the people don't want to aid the oppressor.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  4  
Reply Wed 9 Jan, 2013 10:11 am
@oralloy,
Okay. I'll formulate my question differently: who declare the Oslo Accords abrogated? (Legally educated as you are, you certainly know that even a fundamental breach of any treaty violates it ... but it isn't automatically declared abrogated.)
oralloy
 
  -1  
Reply Wed 9 Jan, 2013 11:56 am
@Walter Hinteler,
Walter Hinteler wrote:
Okay. I'll formulate my question differently: who declare the Oslo Accords abrogated? (Legally educated as you are, you certainly know that even a fundamental breach of any treaty violates it ... but it isn't automatically declared abrogated.)


I do not know if they have been formally declared abrogated. Probably they haven't been.

But even if they are not formally declared abrogated, as a practical matter Israel is now ignoring them and is going ahead with settlement construction in E-1.
0 Replies
 
mysteryman
 
  3  
Reply Wed 9 Jan, 2013 06:31 pm
@izzythepush,
Show us all where I have ever said that the Palestinians dont deserve their own state.

You say I want to deny them statehood, so its up to you to prove it with any statements from me that back up your claim
izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 Jan, 2013 02:17 am
@mysteryman,
You've consistently taken the Israel's side. By attacking Palestine's vote in the GA on statehood, to all intests and purposes you're denying them a state.

I don't need to prove anything to you.
mysteryman
 
  2  
Reply Thu 10 Jan, 2013 05:00 am
@izzythepush,
That is the most twisted logic I think I have evef seen.

BTW, please show where I attacked the GA vote on anything, ever.
I dont pay any attention to what the General Assembly does, because it doesnt concern me.
izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 Jan, 2013 05:07 am
@mysteryman,
mysteryman wrote:
BTW, please show where I attacked the GA vote on anything, ever.


You suggested as much when you posted this.

Quote:
When the Paestinians got recognized as an independent country, they lost all claim to any tax revenue from Israel.


Which also delibereately misses the point. Israel isn't giving Palestine tax revenue, they are withholding taxes paid by Palestinians to the authority, but I suspect, like the timing of the results of the autopsy, you knew that all along.
mysteryman
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 Jan, 2013 11:36 am
@izzythepush,
What I do believe is that any tax revenue paid BEFORE Palestine was recognized by the UN as a state should be turned over to them, after that its up to the PA to collect their own taxes, just like any other state does.

But its really hard to take anything you say seriously.
After all, you are the one that said I served in Iraq and Afghanistan because of my "hatred" of Muslims, totally ignoring the fat that I joined tthe service in 1978, 23 years BEFORE the events of 9/11.
So you must think I am able to see the future and knew 23 years in advance what was going to happen.

I am willing to admit that there is a POSSIBILITY that Israel was responsible for Arafats death, if you are willing to admit that its also quite possible that he died of old age, and Israel had nothing to do with it.
Unlike you, I am willing to wait for the results of the autopsy to come in, while you have already convicted Israel for Arafats death.

And would you have accepted Israel killing him after the Munich Olympics, when he was personally responsible for the deaths of most of the Israeli Olympic team?

Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Reply Thu 10 Jan, 2013 11:48 am
@mysteryman,
mysteryman wrote:

What I do believe is that any tax revenue paid BEFORE Palestine was recognized by the UN as a state should be turned over to them, after that its up to the PA to collect their own taxes, just like any other state does.
Well, if Israel would agree on such ... you DO know, mm, why they haven't done it before, don't you?
(Btw: Palestine collects [a tiny bit of] money on behalf of Israel, as well, e.g. for all the Christian religious stuff produced there and exported via Israel.)
0 Replies
 
izzythepush
 
  2  
Reply Thu 10 Jan, 2013 02:06 pm
@mysteryman,
You're the one who brought hate into the argument not me.

Should America pay to give Palestine the wherewithal to collect their own taxes, because otherwise those are just empty words?

If you had any understanding of the political dynamics, you'd be aware that one of the delays in the autopsy wasn't that senior Palestinians were worried that Arafat had died of old age, but that he might have died because of AIDS.

Why would you only be willing to accept the possibility that Israel killed Arafat if I accept he might have died of old age? Surely you should make that decision based on logic and judgement, what I think shouldn't have any bearing on your decision.

If you want to start topping up corpses then Israel wins by what you call a country mile. After the Munich Olypics the Israelis tried to murder Arafat, they may not have succeeded in killing him, but they did manage to kill an innocent Moroccan waiter, Ahmed Bouchiki in Lillehammer, but he's just another Arab so who gives a ****.

To be honest MM, in your heart you mean well, but you really don't know the real horrors of the occupation. The Israeli lobby does a bang up job in America, so it's not really your fault.

Here's the Wiki page on taxes.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taxation_in_the_Palestinian_territories

As Palestine is forced to trade with Israel how can they collect the VAT on Israeli goods/services?

As Palestine is forced to import everything through Israel, how can they collect the tax on foreign goods/services?

Or are you suggesting that the Palestinians be taxed twice?
0 Replies
 
izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Sun 13 Jan, 2013 03:56 am
@mysteryman,
I see you've got plenty of time to talk about fun with guns on another thread, but still can't answer a simple question.
izzythepush
 
  2  
Reply Wed 6 Nov, 2013 03:19 pm
@izzythepush,
And the latest. One report down (Swiss) two more to go, (France and Russia.)

Quote:
The late Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat may have been poisoned with radioactive polonium, says a Swiss forensic report obtained by al-Jazeera.

Arafat's official medical records say he died in 2004 from a stroke resulting from a blood disorder.

But his body was exhumed last year amid continuing claims he was murdered.

The Swiss report said tests on the body showed "unexpected high activity" of polonium, which "moderately" supported the poisoning theory.

Many Palestinians and others have long believed that Israel poisoned Arafat. Others allege that he had Aids or cancer. Israel has consistently denied any involvement.

A spokesman for the Israeli foreign ministry said the Swiss investigation was "more soap opera than science". The scientists - from the Vaudois University Hospital Centre (CHUV) in Lausanne, Switzerland - carried out a detailed examination of Arafat's medical records, samples taken from his remains and items he had taken into the hospital in Paris where he died in 2004.


He said the investigations had been commissioned by "interested parties" - Mr Arafat's widow and the Palestinian Authority - and had "never bothered" to look for some key data.

"The other huge hole in the theory is the absence of all access to the French hospital where Arafat died and to Arafat's medical files," said Mr Palmor.

"How can the cause of death be determined without the opinion of the doctors or the results of the medical tests they ran on the patient?

"Israel doesn't feel concerned in the least."

Speaking in Paris, Arafat's widow, Suha, said the Swiss results revealed "a real crime, a political assassination".

"This has confirmed all our doubts. It is scientifically proved that he didn't die a natural death and we have scientific proof that this man was killed."

Reuters said she did not name any suspects and acknowledged that her husband had had many enemies in his lifetime.

Arafat, who led the Palestine Liberation Organisation for 35 years and became the first president of the Palestinian Authority in 1996, fell violently ill in October 2004 at his compound.

Two weeks later he was flown to a French military hospital in Paris, where he died on 11 November 2004, aged 75.

France began a murder inquiry in August 2012 after the Lausanne scientists, working with an al-Jazeera documentary crew, found traces of polonium-210 on Arafat's personal effects.

His widow had objected to a post-mortem at the time of his death, but asked the Palestinian Authority to permit the exhumation "to reveal the truth".

His remains were removed from his tomb in the West Bank city of Ramallah in November 2012 and reinterred the same day.

Last month, the head of the Russian Federal Medico-Biological Agency, Vladimir Uiba, was quoted by the Interfax news agency as saying that Arafat "could not have been poisoned with polonium", saying that test carried out by Russian experts "found no traces of this substance".

However, the agency later denied that Mr Uiba had made any official statement on the findings.

The head of the Palestinian investigation team, Tawfiq Tirawi, confirmed on Tuesday that the Russian and Swiss reports had been delivered. The Palestinian team is reported to have handed over its findings on Saturday.


Swiss scientists' findingsExperts at the Vaudois University Hospital Centre (CHUV) in Lausanne, Switzerland, conducted tests on samples taken from Yasser Arafat's exhumed body in November 2012
Samples also analysed by Palestinian, French and Russian teams, whose findings have yet to be published by the Palestinian Authority
Swiss report says "unexpectedly high levels of polonium-210 and lead-210 activity" found in specimens taken from Arafat's ribs, pelvis and soil that absorbed his bodily fluids
It notes a lack of adequate biological specimens, particularly soft tissues, and the eight years between death and the investigation, rendering detection subject to uncertainties
But it concludes results "moderately support the proposition that the death was the consequence of poisoning with polonium-210"
Q&A: Exhumation of Yasser Arafat

They concluded that their results "moderately support the proposition that the death was the consequence of poisoning with polonium-210".

The scientists stressed that they had been unable to reach a more definitive conclusion because of the time that had lapsed since Arafat's death, the limited samples available and the confused "chain of custody" of some of the specimens.

Polonium-210 is a highly radioactive substance. It is found in low doses in food and created naturally in the body, but can be fatal if ingested in high doses.

Parallel investigations are being carried out by French and Russian experts - one Russian official said last month that no traces of polonium had been found.


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-24838061
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Wed 6 Nov, 2013 03:57 pm
@izzythepush,
Not surprised that Arafat was poisoned and I wouldn't be surprised if the Israelis poisoned him. I also wouldn't be surprised if someone if the PLO poisoned him.
izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Wed 6 Nov, 2013 04:29 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
That doesn't surprise me.
 

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