It looks like Arafat was murdered by the Israelis after all. No surprise there.

@cicerone imposter,

cicerone imposter wrote:

CHEERS!

Quote:
UN vote recognizes state of Palestine; US objects

The United Nations voted overwhelmingly Thursday to recognize a Palestinian state, a long-sought victory for the Palestinians and an embarrassing diplomatic defeat for the United States.

Yep. The Oslo accords are finally dead and gone, thanks to the Palestinians and the UN.

1967 borders are dead and gone too now. The Palestinians only would have gotten 1967 borders if they had negotiated with Israel.

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@Advocate,

I wasn't expecting you to weep over Arafat's death. You've made it perfectly clear you have no respect for the human rights of the Palestinians.

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@cicerone imposter,

cicerone imposter wrote:

CHEERS!

Quote:
UN vote recognizes state of Palestine; US objects

The United Nations voted overwhelmingly Thursday to recognize a Palestinian state, a long-sought victory for the Palestinians and an embarrassing diplomatic defeat for the United States.

Agreed, what's most significant is that the occupied territories now have the protection of the ICC. That means any future collective punishment meted out by Israel will result in arrest warrents being issued. Other than America and Israel, the only significant countries to vote against the recognition were the Czech Republic, Canada and Panama. The rest were a bunch of tiny island nations who are reliant on American largesse.

2 Replies

@izzythepush,

izzythepush wrote:

cicerone imposter wrote:
CHEERS!

Quote:
UN vote recognizes state of Palestine; US objects

The United Nations voted overwhelmingly Thursday to recognize a Palestinian state, a long-sought victory for the Palestinians and an embarrassing diplomatic defeat for the United States.

Agreed, what's most significant is that the occupied territories now have the protection of the ICC. That means any future collective punishment meted out by Israel will result in arrest warrents being issued.

Er, no. Keep in mind that the collective punishment nonsense is a fallacy, believed only by anti-Semites who are too stupid to know any better. The ICC judges will not be interested in wasting their time pursuing frivolous charges.

However, the judges are willing to pursue actual crimes. So Israel will be able to drag Palestinian terrorists off to the Hague and have them prosecuted.

The most significant part of all of this is that it nullified the Oslo accords. That means no more negotiations, and no more 1967 borders.

2 Replies

@oralloy,

oralloy wrote:

So Israel will be able to drag Palestinian terrorists off to the Hague and have them prosecuted.

How could they do it? Don't they have an own court system?

2 Replies

@Walter Hinteler,

It's going to take a long time for the truth of the matter to sink in with Oralboy, he's very slow. You're quite right Israel does not need the protection of the ICC, they lock Palestinians up, often without trial, all the time.

Quote:

As of January 2012, 309 Palestinians were held without criminal charges, according to B'Tselem:
16 Palestinians have been held without charge for 2–4.5 years
88 have been held for 1–2 years
80 have been held for 6 months-1 year

In July 2012 the number had decreased to 250.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_prisoners_in_Israel

From Amnesty International.

Quote:

Administrative detainees – like many other Palestinian prisoners – have been subjected to violations such as the use of torture and other ill-treatment during interrogation, as well as cruel and degrading treatment during their detention, sometimes as punishment for hunger strikes or other protests.

In addition, administrative detainees and their families must live with the uncertainty of not knowing how long they will be deprived of their liberty and the injustice of not knowing exactly why they are being detained.

Like other Palestinian prisoners, they have also faced bans on family visits, forcible transfer or deportation and solitary confinement.

These practices contravene Israel’s obligations under international human rights law and international humanitarian law.

http://www.amnesty.org/en/news/israel-injustice-and-secrecy-surrounding-administrative-detention-2012-06-01

So I'm sure these political prisoners would welcome being 'dragged off' to the ICC where they won't be tortured, and will be guaranteed a fair trial.

1 Reply

@Walter Hinteler,

Walter Hinteler wrote:

oralloy wrote:
So Israel will be able to drag Palestinian terrorists off to the Hague and have them prosecuted.

How could they do it?

Get some evidence proving the guy is a terrorist, then arrest the guy, bundle him into a plane, and fly him off to the Hague.

Walter Hinteler wrote:

Don't they have an own court system?

Yes, but that will not prevent them from bundling Palestinian terrorists off to the Hague if they chose.

1 Reply

@oralloy,

oralloy wrote:

Walter Hinteler wrote:
oralloy wrote:
So Israel will be able to drag Palestinian terrorists off to the Hague and have them prosecuted.

How could they do it?

Get some evidence proving the guy is a terrorist, then arrest the guy, bundle him into a plane, and fly him off to the Hague.

Well, that would mean that Israel doesn't have a working court and legal system. And more important: that Israel accepts the jurisdiction of ICC (and ratified the membership before).

1 Reply

@izzythepush,

How can that be? georgeob says Israel is a "democracy," and Palestinians are equal citizens of Israel - except for the West Bank and Gaza. According to "all" my sources, the West Bank and Gaza are de facto occupied territories of the Israelis.

How can it be both a democracy and a occupied territory when Jews keep stealing Palestinian lands, and they don't have legal rights?

Also, georgeob says Wiki is not dependable source for the "definition of words." He has yet to provide any challenge for it - except his personal opinion.

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@cicerone imposter,

The apart from Gaza and the West Bank is a rather big apart from. The rest are Arab Israelis. It's democratic like apartheid South Africa was democratic.

Btw I'm not remotely interested in anything that particular person has to say, he's on ignore for a reason.

0 Replies

@cicerone imposter,

Quote:

Also, georgeob says Wiki is not dependable source for the "definition of words." He has yet to provide any challenge for it - except his personal opinion.

Have you ever seen anything from Gob1 except his own expectoration?

0 Replies

@Walter Hinteler,

Walter Hinteler wrote:

oralloy wrote:
Walter Hinteler wrote:
oralloy wrote:
So Israel will be able to drag Palestinian terrorists off to the Hague and have them prosecuted.

How could they do it?

Get some evidence proving the guy is a terrorist, then arrest the guy, bundle him into a plane, and fly him off to the Hague.

Well, that would mean that Israel doesn't have a working court and legal system.

No. It would only mean that Israel chose to ship them to the ICC for trial instead of shipping them to Israel for trial.

Walter Hinteler wrote:

And more important: that Israel accepts the jurisdiction of ICC (and ratified the membership before).

Not exactly. But it would mean that Israel accepts the fact that the ICC has jurisdiction over the Palestinians (who would have ratified membership before).

0 Replies

@cicerone imposter,

cicerone imposter wrote:

How can that be? georgeob says Israel is a "democracy," and Palestinians are equal citizens of Israel - except for the West Bank and Gaza. According to "all" my sources, the West Bank and Gaza are de facto occupied territories of the Israelis.

Neither Gaza and the West Bank are part of Israel (until Israel annexes part of the West Bank that is).

Even if Israel occupied them, they would not be part of Israel. However, Israel does not occupy Palestinian areas in either place.

cicerone imposter wrote:

How can it be both a democracy and a occupied territory when Jews keep stealing Palestinian lands, and they don't have legal rights?

No one has ever said that Gaza or the West Bank are a democracy. Those territories lie outside Israel until such time as Israel begins their annexation of parts of the West Bank.

Israel does not occupy Palestinian land in either place.

Jews are not stealing anyone's land. They are making use of their own land.

The question of Palestinian legal rights should be addressed to the Palestinian government.

0 Replies

@oralloy,

oralloy wrote:

However, the judges are willing to pursue actual crimes. So Israel will be able to drag Palestinian terrorists off to the Hague and have them prosecuted.

your problem with this approach is that Palestine wants to have access to the ICC and Israel doesn't. I think the Israeli government is very aware of the dangers it faces if cases presented by Palestinians make it to the ICC. It is similar to U.S. fears of the ICC.

1 Reply

@izzythepush,

izzythepush wrote:

Other than America and Israel, the only significant countries to vote against the recognition were the Czech Republic, Canada and Panama.

Something's going on in Canada around this - they've apparently called back diplomatic staff from Israel for discussions. The public backlash against the vote has been noisy (I've walked through 3 demonstrations in the past 2 days).

2 Replies

@ehBeth,

ehBeth wrote:

Something's going on in Canada around this - they've apparently called back diplomatic staff from Israel for discussions.

Canada recalls diplomats from Israel, West Bank and UN:

Quote:

“We have a disagreement with 179 countries and I’m not quite sure how you penalize 179 countries,” Heinbecker said.

1 Reply

@ehBeth,

ehBeth wrote:

your problem with this approach is that Palestine wants to have access to the ICC and Israel doesn't.

Yes, but if the Palestinians get access to the ICC despite Israel's objections, Israel might as well make use of it, even if they would have preferred otherwise.

ehBeth wrote:

I think the Israeli government is very aware of the dangers it faces if cases presented by Palestinians make it to the ICC. It is similar to U.S. fears of the ICC.

Similar indeed.

I think the fears are unfounded in both cases.

Both the US and Israel get bombarded by so many fake accusations of war crimes, that people seem to fear that being subject to the ICC will result in both countries being unjustly convicted.

But I have a little more faith in the ICC. I think what they will do is throw all the frivolous charges out of court.

0 Replies

@ehBeth,

ehBeth wrote:

The public backlash against the vote has been noisy (I've walked through 3 demonstrations in the past 2 days).

The day will come when people will look back and wish that more countries had had the foresight and vision of Canada's government.

I mean, the UN just abrogated the Oslo Accords and put a permanent stop to peaceful negotiations. Talk about a huge step backwards.

I know the Palestinians were refusing to negotiate anyway, but still, this was a pretty dramatic setback.

1 Reply

@oralloy,

Canada's government has already recognized that they made a mistake.

2 Replies

@ehBeth,

When are they going to recognize and acknowledge their huge mistake in following those war criminals that led the US into Afghanistan, thereby becoming war criminals themselves?

0 Replies

It looks like Arafat was murdered by the Israelis after all. No surprise there.

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