micah wrote:beebo, whatever you do, don't take ashermans advice....Budhism excludes Christ....you might as well 'double-dog dare' God to send you to hell....
as i've reasoned before, perhaps even some Budhists will make it into heaven on grounds of 'mental deficiencies' or maybe they didn't reach the age of accountability....
God has much mercy....
Micah
Do you ever read the baloney that you write? A while back I asked you if you thought all non-christians were going to hell and you replied with some nonsense that maybe some murderers would get to heaven because of mental deficiencies and god's mercy. You provide real meaning to the term "god fearing".
well i actually have good news for you!
it's looking like you may actually fit in to the M.D. department....
see ya there!
truth
Micah, your recent statement regarding Buddhism is not only ignorant and absurd, it's malicious. And terribly unchristian.
how is it un-Christian? are you telling me the Bible doesn't ask us to judge these things and spread truth???
its absolutely Christian..
Quote: are you telling me the Bible doesn't ask us to judge these things and spread truth???
So the injunction by the Christos to not judge others is a figment of our imagination?
hobitbob wrote:Quote: are you telling me the Bible doesn't ask us to judge these things and spread truth???
So the injunction by the Christos to not judge others is a figment of our imagination?
once your interpretation skills are up to par, you realize, what we are NOT to judge.....we are not to judge a person by condemning them to hell...we are commanded to judge truth and fiction...
Beebo,
Both our sons were raised as Buddhists. As toddlers they attended regular Sunday services at our Buddhist Temple that held services not terribly different than those you might find in many Christian churches. Remember, that most Buddhists and Christians aren't all that different in the way they approach their religion. Most follow the faith of their parents, or dominant culture more as a means of belonging than anything else. Most of the people in our Temple were third generation Japanese-American, and probably most had as little theological insight to our religion as the everyday Christian, or Jew has of theirs. Nice people, and they really did try to live according to Buddhist precepts ... but religion I think was almost always secondary to making a living, raising kids, and paying the mortgage.
The distance we had to travel was considerable, and by the time the boys were around 10-12 we pretty much stopped going to the Temple on a regular basis. We still attended for special occasions and celebrations, just like most of the other members of the congregation. In Buddhism attendance to a Temple is not such a big thing as it is with the Abrahamic religions; for us to truly practice our religion calls for constant attention to our thoughts, words and actions. Everything is ultimately a form of meditation. In the Temple, or Zendo (the more common term), one sits in silent meditation for extended periods of time. That makes mindfulness much easier than to maintain attention while supervising a subordinate whose work-habits are not contributing to achieving the group's mission. Try being really, really mindful of things when a five year old wants you to answer a serious question about birth, death, or sex. Good luck. That sort of personal discipline doesn't come easily, nor in a few months of concentrated effort.
Anyway, the boys grew up mostly among nominal Christians. We did try to make sure that they were aware of Bible stories because they are so much a part of the cultural context that the children would have to live in as adults. That was pretty much a failure, because the Bible never made much sense to them.
Both boys did well in school, though the older son was more athletic and the younger was more artistic and intellectual. Both formed friendships that have lasted well into their adult lives. The younger boy has a BA in English and is currently a commercial mortgage lender in San Francisco. He is very liberal in his outlook, and has a comfortable life style. We expect him to wed his long-time girlfriend probably next year.
The oldest son is a career Army officer with a BA in International Studies, and a Master's Degree in Intelligence. The oldest boy is probably more right-wing conservative than I am. He is married to a wonderful woman he met while serving in Korea (he is an East Asian Specialist), and has two children, ages 9 and 11. Our daughter-in-law is Buddhist, but of a different sect than we are ... no big deal. Our grandchildren play the piano, clarinet, violin, and recorder. Both are doing well in the Maryland public schools, though our grand daugher's scholastic achievements are almost unbelievably good.
Both boys have reputations for their honesty and devotion to honor. Both are extremely comfortable with people of different "races" and religions. Damn, I'm proud of them.
Personally, I was raised within the Christian tradition in Southwesten Arizona. My grandparents were Baptists, and my aunt was Catholic. I attended the LDS Church as a child and eventually was a priest. I was a thorn in the side of those religious people charged with turning me into an acceptable Christian. The demand that I accept stories more fantastic than those in the Brothers Grim, was really tough to accept. To me Voltair was a far better guide to life than anything I got in any church. During my military service, my disgust with Christianity peaked. I began to read widely into the other religious traditons looking for something that I could believe in without compromising my selfrespect. It took a while, but eventually I found Buddhism the most rational and sensible religion to me.
After leaving college in Ashland Oregon, I was a student of a very famous Zen Master in San Francisco, but left the monastic life to marry my wife. I was a Beatnik and an early Hippy and knew many of the leading people in those movements during the early 1960's. That whole scene was a deadend, and so Natalie and I went south to L.A. I worked in a variety of jobs for awhile, but eventually settled into aerospace. I became a certified Metalurgist, and did work that contributed to the design and building of the spaceshuttle. I worked a full time while carrying a full college load. I earned BAs in Asian Studies and History, then did graduate work in Chinese (USC) and Oriental Philosophy and Religion (CSULB). I shifted from work on my doctorate to study Law, and then did a Masters in Public Administration. I interned with the Criminal Justice Coordinating Council for the Compton Judicial District where I developed grant programs to mitigate gang and juvenile delinquency in one of L.A.s most crime ridden areas. Following that I spent 22 years with the City of Torrance, the third largest city in L.A. County. Of that time, I spent 12 years with the police department and the remainder in a variety of management positions ... often as a mentor and "fix-it" guy to workgroups that were percieved to have problems.
During all that time I never made my religion a secret, nor did I push it on anyone. I think that, if anything, my religious convictions enhanced my reputation. You might be surprised to hear that I probably had greater acceptance among police officers than I did with the political types that I eventually workd most closely with. Over the years I've been accosted and insulted many times by Christians of varies sorts, but never by Jews. I've never known very many Muslims, so they've never been a personal problem to me. I hope this is the sort of information you were hoping to get from me. Ask anything, and I'll try to answer.
Micah,
Your approach is very typically Abrahamic, and that's the problem. You have no respect for anyone's opinion if it disagrees with your own. You have The Truth, so the rest of us are all either fools or evil. To save us, though we never ask for that, you are willing to insult us, coerce us, and even kill us to advance the spread of your dogmas. You are no different from the radical Muslims who seek to destroy Western Civilization because it is not blindly loyal to their version of the Abrahamic faith. If you guys would just fight amongst yourselves and leave the rest of us alone, we'd sue appreciate it.
A commendable life, Asherman.
Asherman- Thank you very much- I think you may have opened a can of worms- I will be asking you many questions!!!
Micah- I decided (at 14) that the stories about Jesus and his supernatural powers were fiction. I looked at how my very devout catholic family treated other people (people who weren't catholic) and was disgusted. My father and mother were divorced when I was very young - due in part to my father's numerous affairs. My mother waited years and paid the church $$$$ for a anullment.- she still has not gotten a response. In a way I feel sorry for her because she cannot receive some sacraments in the church untill she gets the anullment. This is very distressing for her.
At 16 - in my AP (honors) English class we read Beowolf. When I learned about how many of the stories of the bible and beowolf were versions of the same fable passed down through years of oral tradition- different only because of years of change and branching off of groups of people- The bible made sense to me in that respect.
I a roommate in college who was a - Jesus freak- I don't really know what religion she was but there is a cult like following at almost all colleges. I certainly don't want to offend anyone by the Jesus freak comment but that is what she called herself- she had a t-shirt and hat etc. that said "Jesus freak". I went with her to a wedding she was in. My dress was too short (it came down past my knees). One of the younger (20) men approached me and started telling me that I sinning by wearing such a short dress. I asked him how and he said I was inviting other men to have sexual (he didn't say the word sexual) thoughts about me. I couldn't get over how he could not own his own thoughts. It is MY fault that he is having sexual thoughts - not his fault. We stayed with the bride - she recounted years of sexual abuse. She was "saved" after it ended. I learned that my friend had a similar (sex abuse then "saved") experience. The bride and groom were students at Bob Jones university- They had rules (at the time) that races would not intermingle- what kind of university or religion would spout that garbage?
A priest would not marry my uncle (who had gotten my aunt pregnant) because my uncle wasn't good enough for her. The priest was one of the men implicated in the recent sex scandal for the Catholic church. Everyone knew - even at the time - that he was abusing boys- even then I couldn't understand why the police weren't involved.
My mother's family did not come to my wedding - because I did not get married in a catholic church. I got married in a Lutheran church (my husband's) - it couldn't be more similar to catholic. We couldn't get married in my mother's catholic church because my mother refused to allow it- my husband wasn't good enough for me. (is this a very christian statement?) He is a teacher but I had been engaged to a lawyer - she wanted me to marry the lawyer.
Micah- I am telling you all of these things because I want you to understand that I have excluded Christ a long time ago. That heaven is not someplace that I want to be. I do not believe in heaven. I am simply asking Asherman some advise about parenting.
'double dog dare'?
also
I am not mentally deficient. I was an honors student in high school. I have a BS in Education - Magna Cum Laude. MS in Education, MS in Counseling and am currently in a PHd program in Psychology.
Can you imagine anyone willing to "love" a god who is willing to condemn people to unrelenting, excruciating torture in Hell for all the rest of eternity?
This god of theirs, if it were a human, would spend all its days locked in a cell more closely monitored than the cell in which Hannibal Lecter was housed in Silence of the Lambs.
This is a pathetic mythology.
A mythology is only as dangerous as the interpretation of the person who weilds it.
Micah may grow up to be dangerous, but I fear much more for his brother (whose icon is a gun.) Jesus would be ashamed of such intolerance.
beebo wrote:Asherman- Thank you very much- I think you may have opened a can of worms- I will be asking you many questions!!!
Micah- I decided (at 14) that the stories about Jesus and his supernatural powers were fiction. I looked at how my very devout catholic family treated other people (people who weren't catholic) and was disgusted. My father and mother were divorced when I was very young - due in part to my father's numerous affairs. My mother waited years and paid the church $$$$ for a anullment.- she still has not gotten a response. In a way I feel sorry for her because she cannot receive some sacraments in the church untill she gets the anullment. This is very distressing for her.
At 16 - in my AP (honors) English class we read Beowolf. When I learned about how many of the stories of the bible and beowolf were versions of the same fable passed down through years of oral tradition- different only because of years of change and branching off of groups of people- The bible made sense to me in that respect.
I a roommate in college who was a - Jesus freak- I don't really know what religion she was but there is a cult like following at almost all colleges. I certainly don't want to offend anyone by the Jesus freak comment but that is what she called herself- she had a t-shirt and hat etc. that said "Jesus freak". I went with her to a wedding she was in. My dress was too short (it came down past my knees). One of the younger (20) men approached me and started telling me that I sinning by wearing such a short dress. I asked him how and he said I was inviting other men to have sexual (he didn't say the word sexual) thoughts about me. I couldn't get over how he could not own his own thoughts. It is MY fault that he is having sexual thoughts - not his fault. We stayed with the bride - she recounted years of sexual abuse. She was "saved" after it ended. I learned that my friend had a similar (sex abuse then "saved") experience. The bride and groom were students at Bob Jones university- They had rules (at the time) that races would not intermingle- what kind of university or religion would spout that garbage?
A priest would not marry my uncle (who had gotten my aunt pregnant) because my uncle wasn't good enough for her. The priest was one of the men implicated in the recent sex scandal for the Catholic church. Everyone knew - even at the time - that he was abusing boys- even then I couldn't understand why the police weren't involved.
My mother's family did not come to my wedding - because I did not get married in a catholic church. I got married in a Lutheran church (my husband's) - it couldn't be more similar to catholic. We couldn't get married in my mother's catholic church because my mother refused to allow it- my husband wasn't good enough for me. (is this a very christian statement?) He is a teacher but I had been engaged to a lawyer - she wanted me to marry the lawyer.
Micah- I am telling you all of these things because I want you to understand that I have excluded Christ a long time ago. That heaven is not someplace that I want to be. I do not believe in heaven. I am simply asking Asherman some advise about parenting.
'double dog dare'?
Beebo, after reading you post I can relate to quite a few of the experiences you had. My grandparents were both Penticostal preachers and evangalists who abused my mother under the same guise. I wont bore you with all the details but growing up she was not allowed to wear anything except a long, long sleeved and high collared dress with knee high stockings .She could only wear browns and blacks because other colors were sinful. She was forced to always have long hair and either wear it in a bun or pigtails. She was never allowed to date or go out even with the girls. She never saw a movie, TV was a sin, couldn't attend her high school sporting events, she wasn't even allowed to play with a deck of cards. I could go on and on but you get the picture. You talk about mess somebody up.... she was. But she maried, had children and decided to research the Bible for herself. She studied like crazy, starved for some clue as to what was right for her. She eventually got her degree in Theology and became an ordained minister bursting to show people what her perception of the Truth was. Which I might add is very different than the way she was taught to beleive. She stayed far away from the denominations that were anything at all like she was raised because they were soooo wrong, and like many denominations, have done so much harm to so many. I was raised completely different than she was, needless to say. I was taught at a young age to think for my self. To never take anyone's word about scripture but to study it out for myself all the way back to the original languages. My mother is a phenominal woman who exemplifies what Christ taught. If you met her you would never know she was a minister unless you asked because she never tries to shove her beliefs down anyone's throat. If asked, she presents her beliefs with documentation to back them up and with true love for her fellow man. She treats everyone with respect. She's an admirable woman especially considering her up bringing. I'm sure I would have started out rebelling and ended up in jail or an institution. I chose to teach my children the Christian faith but give them the opportunity and encouragement to find out for themselves what they believed. I give my children the same respect my mother gave me. To love them for who they are and never to judge them if they disagree with what I believe. I'm very proud of all of my children. They are polite, well-mannered and respectful to those who deserve respect. Raising children was one of the hardest things I ever tackled in my life! Marriage comes in second! LOL!! Most people that I see these days don't know and don't care what their kids are doing as long as it doesn't inconvenience them. I worry about our younger generations for many reasons and I'm very glad that my kids are grown, my task complete now except for spoilling my grandbabies!!!
"I chose to teach my children the Christian faith but give them the opportunity and encouragement to find out for themselves what they believed. I give my children the same respect my mother gave me. To love them for who they are and never to judge them if they disagree with what I believe. I'm very proud of all of my children. They are polite, well-mannered and respectful to those who deserve respect. Raising children was one of the hardest things I ever tackled in my life! Marriage comes in second! LOL!! Most people that I see these days don't know and don't care what their kids are doing as long as it doesn't inconvenience them. I worry about our younger generations for many reasons and I'm very glad that my kids are grown, my task complete now except for spoilling my grandbabies!!!"
Ditto. And I beleive the same things about raising children. But if you are tolerant towards them, and your mother was tolerant, why aren't you tolerant on the forums?
Also, why did Micah feel the need to lie to me? Is he really 20 somthing or are you guys just lying some more? I don't intend this to come across as an insult, but his/your education level seems lower than what is standard for the ages you say you are.
Frank Apisa wrote:Can you imagine anyone willing to "love" a god who is willing to condemn people to unrelenting, excruciating torture in Hell for all the rest of eternity?
This god of theirs, if it were a human, would spend all its days locked in a cell more closely monitored than the cell in which Hannibal Lecter was housed in Silence of the Lambs.
This is a pathetic mythology.
God is not the one who has condemned them. We all have free-will (because of God). They are condemning themselves. Jesus was not willing that ANY should perish which is the reason He gave His life for everyone. God cannot force anyone to believe in Him or to love Him. Freewill. The source of evil is not God's power but mankinds freedom. Even an all-powerful God could not have created a world in which people had genuine freedom and yet with no potentuality for sin, because our freedom includes the possibility of sin within it's own meaning. That potentuality for sin was actualized not by God, but by people. The blame, ultimately, lies with us.
Portal Star wrote:"I chose to teach my children the Christian faith but give them the opportunity and encouragement to find out for themselves what they believed. I give my children the same respect my mother gave me. To love them for who they are and never to judge them if they disagree with what I believe. I'm very proud of all of my children. They are polite, well-mannered and respectful to those who deserve respect. Raising children was one of the hardest things I ever tackled in my life! Marriage comes in second! LOL!! Most people that I see these days don't know and don't care what their kids are doing as long as it doesn't inconvenience them. I worry about our younger generations for many reasons and I'm very glad that my kids are grown, my task complete now except for spoilling my grandbabies!!!"
Ditto. And I beleive the same things about raising children. But if you are tolerant towards them, and your mother was tolerant, why aren't you tolerant on the forums?
I must confess that is very wrong of me. But all of the degradation and childish insults managed to push me over the edge. (Is that an example of the level of education represented here?) I also feel that I'm the only one who is to be held to the tolerence expectations! (Oops, sorry Micah, I forgot you belong in this catagory too!) No one here has certainly shown any tolerance, especially to Micah. Why can't you respect that he is a warrior for God, or certainly portrays himself in that light.
Also, why did Micah feel the need to lie to me? Is he really 20 somthing or are you guys just lying some more?
Concerning Micah, I don't know what" lie "you're referring to. I don't understand your referrence to "you guys just lying some more?" I haven't lied about anything. Am I suppossed to know how old Micah is?
I don't intend this to come across as an insult, but his/your education level seems lower than what is standard for the ages you say you are.
This does come across as a direct insult! The only way I can understand this statement is because I reacted with anger, which I've already addressed. I've never told you anything about my education. I have my diplomas that hang on the wall but I don't believe in hiding behind them. I am who I am and I have nothing to prove to you or anyone else. I'm sure you're aware of what all those initials stand for anyway, right? B.S.= bullshit, M.S.= more ****, and PhD= piled higher and deeper. LOL! Besides, I must have missed the part that said you had to have any education at all to voice your opinion here. I know and have worked with a lot of well educated people who were absolute idiots!!! So, yeah, that does sound more and more like an insult. A cheap shot made for lack of anything else to say.
YOu don't have to have an education. It can be a good thing, but for many people it is just a piece of paper.
However, Micah said he was 20-somthing, didn't have extremely religious parents, and had a normal childhood. He also said he never had any relation with a cult.
What you just described seems like if your mother was a priest than she was very religous, and the cultish situation that she went through was not somthing normal.
Micah seems to have a twelve year old typing and argument style, ("that's dumb", "you're going to hell/ the FBI should investigate you" etc.) and the way you stick up for what he says in an extremely defensive manner is also characteristic of someone young. I don't care about your age of your education, but I don't like being lied to.
Portal Star wrote:A mythology is only as dangerous as the interpretation of the person who weilds it.
Micah may grow up to be dangerous, but I fear much more for his brother (whose icon is a gun.) Jesus would be ashamed of such intolerance.
LOL! I'm definately not Micah's brother, in the sense you use. But I'm proud to his brother, actually, his sister in Christ!
BTW, I chose the gun after someone else decided to give me the "Flaming" icon. If that's offensive to you, I'll change it, even though I am a card carrying member of the NRA.
Dono wrote:Portal Star wrote:A mythology is only as dangerous as the interpretation of the person who weilds it.
Micah may grow up to be dangerous, but I fear much more for his brother (whose icon is a gun.) Jesus would be ashamed of such intolerance.
LOL! I'm definately not Micah's brother, in the sense you use. But I'm proud to his brother, actually, his sister in Christ!
BTW, I chose the gun after someone else decided to give me the "Flaming" icon. If that's offensive to you, I'll change it, even though I am a card carrying member of the NRA.
I like the NRA (or rather, I like that someone is fighting for gun-control opposition.) What I don't like is how some of your posts seem scary/forceful and your icon is also a gun. You can keep it, I don't care, but I percieve it as threatening because guns are a tool to kill. Do you understand?
