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When They say "I hate America", what do you think They mean?

 
 
caprice
 
  1  
Reply Wed 18 Feb, 2004 01:31 am
Ceili wrote:
Shwarzenager(sic) (can't be bothered)


*LOL*

I too was pretty amazed that he got in. Oh well, at least any higher aspirations by "Ahnold" will only be dreams. The guy admitted he wasn't that knowledgeable but had many knowledgeable advisors on his team. Nothing like handing the reigns over to the non-elected people.
0 Replies
 
caprice
 
  1  
Reply Wed 18 Feb, 2004 01:34 am
cicerone imposter wrote:
Yeah, if we can't trust our friends, who can we trust? <grin>


Wink True....I imagine in both our cases, they believed the information they had was from a good source too!

I think some of my friends get annoyed with me because they send me all these warnings or "some sad story and won't I support it by forwarding this e-mail" type things which I then turn around and say "it's a hoax! here is the web page at snopes.com for you to read yourself." Wink
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Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Wed 18 Feb, 2004 02:48 am
georgeob1 wrote:
Canada enjoys great economic benefits from her trade with the United States, selling far more goods here than she buys from the U.S. NAFTA does not seem to have hurt Canada's trade as you have claimed.

Canada may well enjoy great economic benefits from its trade with the US, but its trade surplus isn't the reason for it. As a matter of accounting, Canada's trade surplus is only possible if Canada is also running an asset deficit with America -- in other words, if Canada is a net exporter of capital to the United States. Trade surpluses come at a cost just like everything else does, and a current account surplus is not necessarily favorable.

By the way, this is one thing that gets foreigners annoyed with Official America -- the mentality that when America is running a trade deficit with a country, that country is ripping her off and needs to be protected against. But European politicians like to make that mistake too, and if our societies were as much in the red as yours, they would be wining about foreign imports too.
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blatham
 
  1  
Reply Wed 18 Feb, 2004 07:34 am
Balance of trade issues make up the bulk of our Canadian conversations about the US when we are out at lacrosse games, bingo parlors, and while we are standing over pub urinals.

As for size, both Russia and China exceed us in square footage, and believe you me, we are deeply shamed.

Then too, there is the gaping weaponry differential. No few marriages here, begun in the fresh blush of youthful love and confidence, have ended in angry words, tears, and civil procedings, the disillusioned young wife, now burdened by the responsibility of raising her little ones in security, unable to fill the rec room cabinets with revolvers and assault rifles like her counterpart in Ohio.
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georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Wed 18 Feb, 2004 08:05 am
Ceili wrote:


I have rarely had a bad encounter with an american. I have visited many places throughout the US and alway had a great time. I find most americans are just like me, my friends and family and so on. But, as a people, as a government, as a force to be reckoned with, you are rather domineering.
The government decides they don't like a policy of a trading partner they throw a embargo. This throws local economies into turmoil.

This is silly case but a highly recognizable case of american protectionism, the implications are bothersome, don't you agree? Shwarzenager(sic) (can't be bothered) decides canada - a major consumer of hollywood glitz shouldn't share in the production profits, the only? substantial agenda of his political agenda, and he gets elected.


I can readily agree with all of that. It should also be evident that I have found this thread of yours very engaging, and I appreciate the openness and intent of all the posters here. If I have offended anyone in my perhaps too vigorous defense, I apologize.

I run an environmental engineering company that employs engineers, scientists and a variety of construction folks. All very nice, amiable people. However the business we operate in remains very competitive, and some of our competitors are much larger that we. If I allow or costs to get too high or our people to lose their focus, we will lose business to our competitors and they will loose their jobs. The economic relations among free nations are like that too.

There is no doubt that U.S. companies attempt to influence our government to take actions favorable to their interests, and that sometimes they succeed, You cite a good example concerning media production in BC and Hollywood. The Californians are fairly spooked at the prospect of losing lots of production business to lower cost operations in BC, and their reactions have been decidedly protectionist (as opposed to free trade). This stuff cuts two ways too. Canada has a National health care system and has made government agencies the single buyer of pharmaceutical products as a way to leverage their buying power to the greatest effect. The results are reduced profits for the producers and manufacturers and lower prices for Canadians. This is a major distortion of a free market and a result is higher prices for everyone outside Canada. If everyone took the Canadian solution then we would soon have a socialist or government directed pharmaceutical industry - and experience shows this would soon choke off innovation, investment, and progress, harming everyone. We must deal with the consequences of your choices in this matter just as you must deal with ours in others.

There are indeed real issues on both sides of our trade disputes, and I do concede the great potential for harm that our mere size inevitably entails. (Not much we can do about that.) However the fact remains that overall Canada has for a long time been winning the trade game with the United States, and doing so by a wide margin. I believe that basic fact is too often omitted from your public discourse on trade issues.

There are other economic aspects of these trade issues as Thomas has pointed out. (I am a student of his in macroeconomics). However it remains a fact that for the trade issues in dispute, Canada, not the U.S., is the overall winner.

One could readily make a long list of defects in an admittedly dominating (or at least increasingly ubiquitous) American culture. Coarsening standards in the media, excesses by businesses, a pervasive self-preoccupation manifest in both governmental and popular actions, and much more. It's all quite visible, and I won't attempt to defend it. However, overall, I believe these attributes are more often a result of free expression, and therefore universal things, than they are a manifestation of some perverse national neurosis ('though I don't fully exclude that).
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Wilso
 
  1  
Reply Wed 18 Feb, 2004 08:20 am
I don't hate America. I hate conservatives far right conservatives everywhere. They just seem to have a LOT of power in the US right now. And the whole world is suffering because of it.
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georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Wed 18 Feb, 2004 10:11 am
Well I'm a conservative, but I don't hate you. (Though I do find some of your expressed views a bit repugnant).

There is a great deal of misery and suffering in the world right now, from Africa to poor areas in Asia and other places. However very little of it is a result of the actions of conservatives in this country.

The U.S. is nearly evenly divided between conservatives and liberals. I suspect the whole political spectrum here may be shifted a bit right of what prevails in Australia or Europe, but we are every bit as diverse as other democracies.

We had an acronym in the Navy for one who was wrong a lot - WEFT. You were 0 for 3.
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 18 Feb, 2004 11:59 am
george, Why is it so easy to figure out the acronym used in the navy? LOL
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Fedral
 
  1  
Reply Wed 18 Feb, 2004 05:04 pm
kitchenpete wrote:
It's not quite the same thing but, here in Europe, there used to be a concept of "Noblesse oblige" - if you are Lord of the Manor, you make sure that you look after the whole village, to make sure that no one goes without. A feudal system is highly flawed but it wansn't without its own standards of behaviour.


Well kitchenpete, speaking from a nation that doesn't have a history feudal hierarchy of of having 'Lords' and 'Nobles' please excuse us for not following the lead of that most enlightened group of forefathers. Rolling Eyes

America was founded on the principle of Individual Self Determination that is to say, each one of us is responsible for ourselves. We in America provide for our old and those unable to find work, we look after the infirm etc. (See: Social Security, Unemployment, Welfare, AFDC, etc) but over and above that, each citizen is expected to determine their own course, be it CEO of Microsoft or a cardboard box over a steam vent. America offers millions of opportunities to succeed and a million ways to fail. Each persons actions determine how that will work. That absolute freedom of opportunity scares most non-Americans because they can't comprehend THAT much freedom.

Yet ... perhaps... if you wish we Americans to follow that model to make our European brethren feel that we are acting in a 'proper European manner' then we must also take upon ourselves certain OTHER rights and obligations of the Nobles:

How about the obligation to protect ones village? No... when we do that we are called warmongers.

How about the right to judge criminals and administer 'High Justice'? No... we do that and we are accused of depriving people of their rights and of trying to be the worlds 'policeman'

How about the right to make war on ones enemies? No... when we do that, we are accused of ignoring the world and taking 'unilateral action'


Im sorry kitchenpete, but it sounds like you want us to take up just the burdens of 'Nobility' that YOU think are appropriate.

I am an American, born of immigrants. My mother came to this country in 1960 from Liverpool and my fathers parents both arrived in America from Italy in the early 1900's and I thank God every day that I was born here instead of the 'Old World'.

If America is SUCH a terrible place, if it represents all that is 'wrong' with the world, then why are more people emigrating or TRYING to emigrate here than any other nation on Earth ?

It may sound like arrogance ... but the truth usually sounds that way to people not used to hearing it.
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Wilso
 
  1  
Reply Wed 18 Feb, 2004 05:12 pm
Provide for your old? Is that why we commonly see winter stories of the elderly who can't pay their energy bills freezing to death.

Those who can't work? Then why do you have such massive rates of homelessness? Why can't you get welfare without an address?

YOu didn't protect you're own village. Saddam was never a threat.

You did take unilateral action. You invaded a mineral rich nation to take it for yourselves.

Why are people trying to live there? They must be f@cking retarded. I wouldn't swap this island paradise for anything. The rest of the world has to die to get to heaven.
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fishin
 
  1  
Reply Wed 18 Feb, 2004 07:53 pm
Wilso wrote:
Provide for your old? Is that why we commonly see winter stories of the elderly who can't pay their energy bills freezing to death.

Those who can't work? Then why do you have such massive rates of homelessness? Why can't you get welfare without an address?


Do you ever have anything to post other than nonsense?

The US averages less than 200 people per year in total that die from cold. When compared to the population level it comes out pretty darn close to the same percentage of your population that die from drought.

And our homeless rate has remained at or below 1% of the population where your's is at .6%. Neither is "massive" on any scale.

Maybe you just need to quit reading the tabloids for your news. Rolling Eyes
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 18 Feb, 2004 08:03 pm
Wilso, Seems you guys have your share of problems too! http://www.collegian.com/vnews/display.v/ART/2004/02/18/40330507d7261
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IronLionZion
 
  1  
Reply Wed 18 Feb, 2004 08:33 pm
Fedral wrote:
Well kitchenpete, speaking from a nation that doesn't have a history feudal hierarchy of of having 'Lords' and 'Nobles' please excuse us for not following the lead of that most enlightened group of forefathers......blah.....That absolute freedom of opportunity scares most non-Americans because they can't comprehend THAT much freedom........
How about the obligation to protect ones village? No... when we do that we are called warmongers........blah......How about the right to judge criminals and administer 'High Justice'? No... we do that and we are accused of depriving people of their rights and of trying to be the worlds 'policeman'..........blah.....How about the right to make war on ones enemies? No... when we do that, we are accused of ignoring the world and taking 'unilateral action'


Is there a name for what is wrong with you?
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Fedral
 
  1  
Reply Wed 18 Feb, 2004 09:05 pm
IronLionZion wrote:

Is there a name for what is wrong with you?


Yes, it's called common sense and the ability to not be brainwashed by all the media hype that gets spewed out across all the airwaves.

Iron, why don't you try reading positions from people with many points of view and forming your own opinion, not endlessly regurgitating the propaganda of the liberal/conservative extremists.


Oh and wilso, there are laws in place to prevent power/gas/oil companies from cutting off electricity/gas/oil to the elderly and those on public assistance to prevent them from lacking heat or air conditioning even if they are unable to pay.

Compare this with the thousands of people who died across Europe during this past years heat wave. I live in Florida, and we regularly have months in the high 90s to 100 degF (thats 36 to 38 degC to you) and the only old people here that die of the heat are the elderly who venture out in the noonday sun. But we don't care about our people Rolling Eyes
0 Replies
 
IronLionZion
 
  1  
Reply Wed 18 Feb, 2004 09:55 pm
Fedral wrote:
IronLionZion wrote:

Is there a name for what is wrong with you?


Iron, why don't you try reading positions from people with many points of view and forming your own opinion, not endlessly regurgitating the propaganda of the liberal/conservative extremists.


I am tempted to write a comprehensive reply to your points (and I use the word 'your' loosely because you prefer to post the articles and thoughts of others instead of constructing and defending your own stance.) But I won't do that here. Instead, I will make a new thread to examine some of the ideas you have put forth.

The idea that I merely regurgiatate the positions of the Liberal establishment/media is inaccurate. It is also amusingly ironic given your curious habit of posting absurd articles and then disappearing when they are exposed as false. For example, see here and here.

In thread after thread, you follow the same modus operandi - you resort to tried but untrue generalizations about Liberals and Liberal thought to mask your singular intellectual bankruptcy; you post retarded articles and then slink away; you latch on too the less capable Liberal posters and harass them while ignoring more substantive posts; you spew out a half-assed philosophy that is, when shaved to the bone, based on nothing more than your blind faith in all things American. By doing all of this you a) make yourself look like a dimwit, b) discredit the entire Conservative philosophy.

There may be, however, a silver lining here. Your posts in this thread alone represent a goldmine of possible sonservative election slogans. "America: Hey, We Have Self Determination, Even If We Are Living In a Card-Board Box" has an appealing land-of-opportunity ring to it. Likewise, "The World: It Hates Us Cause Were Better Than Them" would make an excellent slogan in defense of Bush's foriegn policy. Or, better yet, "America: Were Kinda Like Europeans, But Better" would go a long way in Europe. In Africa, we could sell our Crusader-For-Justice image with the slogan "Go Ahead Starve: We Don't Owe You Anything."
0 Replies
 
Fedral
 
  1  
Reply Wed 18 Feb, 2004 10:13 pm
IronLionZion wrote:

The idea that I merely regurgiatate the positions of the Liberal establishment/media is inaccurate. It is also amusingly ironic given your curious habit of posting absurd articles and then disappearing when they are exposed as false. For example, see here and here. In thread after thread, you follow the same modus operandi - you resort to tried but untrue generalizations about Liberals and Liberal thought to mask your singular intellectual bankruptcy; you post retarded articles and then slink away; you latch on too the less capable Liberal posters and harass them while ignoring more substantive posts; you spew out a half-assed philosophy that is, when shaved to the bone, based on nothing more than your blind faith in all things American. By doing all of this you a) expose yourself as a dimwit, b) discredit the entire Conservative philosophy.


If you will actually READ some of the non articles I post you will have read that I post most of those articles in direct response to Pistoff's continued posting of some of the most ultra biased, left wing propaganda I have ever seen.
As I have said before, for each one of Pistoffs articles that I see posted, I will find and post an even more right wing wacko article to try and show how absurd the extremists from both sides can be.
The thing I find more absurd than the articles that I post is the responses that Pist's absurd posts get. The fact that I am aware of how absurd most of the articles I post while there is a core of ultra libs that step up to wag their heads in agreement with the absurdities that he posts shows who the actual open minded people are on this board.


IronLionZion wrote:
There may be, however, a silver lining here. Your posts in this thread alone represent a goldmine of possible sonservative election slogans. "America: Hey, We Have Self Determination, Even If We Are Living In a Card-Board Box" has an appealing land-of-opportunity ring to it. Likewise, "The World: It Hates Us Cause Were Better Than Them" would make an excellent slogan in defense of Bush's foriegn policy. Or, better yet, "America: Were Kinda Like Europeans, But Better" would go a long way in Europe. In Africa, we could sell our Crusader-For-Justice image with the slogan "Go Ahead Starve: We Don't Owe You Anything."


While not sure exactly what you are trying to say here, I stand by my post that America doesn't owe any other nation anything. What we give, we give freely. We have no obligation to help, we do it because we like to help and because the average American is caring and generous. We know we have the highest standard of living and have the better opportunities for advancing ourselves than any other place on Earth. Because of that, most of us have a wish to help others and we do it.

But please don't presume to tell us that we have some sort of obligation to help others whether we wish to or not.
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caprice
 
  1  
Reply Wed 18 Feb, 2004 11:41 pm
cicerone imposter wrote:
george, Why is it so easy to figure out the acronym used in the navy? LOL


When I worked in broadcasting there were video tapes that ended up being labelled NFG. Can you guess what that stood for? Wink
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bocdaver
 
  1  
Reply Thu 19 Feb, 2004 12:42 am
I wonder if it is indeed possible to be "successful in a competitive environment without contributing to the losses of others". Some people hold that the age-old assumption that wealth is a limited pie is wrong. Adam Smith felt that Wealth can grow without limits.

I think a large part of foreign animosity towards the USA is based on envy and rancor.

The old saw- "The best way to make an enemy is to give someone money" is certainly true. We saved Europe with the Marshall Plan. They have never forgiven us.
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hobitbob
 
  1  
Reply Thu 19 Feb, 2004 01:06 am
Quote:
there are laws in place to prevent power/gas/oil companies from cutting off electricity/gas/oil to the elderly and those on public assistance to prevent them from lacking heat or air conditioning even if they are unable to pay.

Really? I guess that explains the frequency of house fires in Baltimore, where BGE has shut off gas and electricity to indigent households with small children and elderly people. People start small fires in their stoves in the winter, and use candles in the summer for illumination. In adition, many senior citizens died from heat related illnesses each summer becasue they were without power for air conditioning. There is an assistance plan, but to qualify, a person must deposit $1500.00, and earn at least $25,000.00/year. I don't know many poor people who can afford to do so.
0 Replies
 
Ceili
 
  1  
Reply Thu 19 Feb, 2004 01:33 am
Fedral wrote:

Quote:
Compare this with the thousands of people who died across Europe during this past years heat wave. I live in Florida, and we regularly have months in the high 90s to 100 degF (thats 36 to 38 degC to you) and the only old people here that die of the heat are the elderly who venture out in the noonday sun. But we don't care about our people


With all fairness to the europeans...It was an unprecedented heat wave. They were unprepared and paid the price. I don't think you can compare one disaster to the poverty which affects millions of americans. Your government has turned a blind eye to them, I guess you have as well.

bocdaver wrote:

Quote:
I think a large part of foreign animosity towards the USA is based on envy and rancor.


Perhaps you should read the entire thread. A trip or two out of the country wouldn't hurt either. Plenty of people on this big ol' hunk of rock, haven't the slightest interest in living in the United States, purely because the like their lives, they are happy............. I think America envy is highly over rated.

Hatred - antipathy, dislike; animosity, enmity, hostility, rancor
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