When They say "I hate America", what do you think They mean?

Ceili--Youmay be right. There may indeed be many people who do not wish to live in the United States.

However, I am sure that you know that millions of people who have first come to Canada have subsequently crossed the border to come to the United States.

I go to Europe every year. Many people I talk to, especially younger ones, say that their greatest wish is to come to the United States to live permanently.

If you are not aware that American Culture has captured the hearts of most young Europeans, you are not listening closely enough.

Again---We saved Europe with the Marshall Plan in the late forties and early fifties.
They have never forgiven us.

No good deed goes unpunished.

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bocdaver

Interesting claim. Could you provide numbers and source, along with comparable figures for movement in the opposite direction.

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bocdaver wrote:

I go to Europe every year. Many people I talk to, especially younger ones, say that their greatest wish is to come to the United States to live permanently.

If you are not aware that American Culture has captured the hearts of most young Europeans, you are not listening closely enough.

Again---We saved Europe with the Marshall Plan in the late forties and early fifties.
They have never forgiven us.

No good deed goes unpunished.

Very inetering, indeed.

And if you mean by "American Culture" burger chains etc, you are nearly 90% correct!

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Who invented hamburgers??? :wink:

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C'mon now, Walt. You mean to tell me you never watch American movies or watch American TV shows? No one wears any American fashions? Don't watch American sports? Don't enjoy American food? Drive American cars? Use American software in there American computers using American chips while surfing the Internet that was created in America?

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Ceili wrote:

With all fairness to the europeans...It was an unprecedented heat wave. They were unprepared and paid the price. I don't think you can compare one disaster to the poverty which affects millions of americans. Your government has turned a blind eye to them, I guess you have as well.

I agree that it is unfair and inappropriate to cast blame on Europeans or their governments for the deaths during the recent heat wave. No one anticipated it or intended it and their reaction to it has been quite appropriate. Such things can happen anywhere.

At the same time I believe it is an almost equally cheap shot to cite "the poverty that affects millions of Americans", and suggest that our government and people have turned a blind eye towards them.

The fact is that by the usual economic measures the incomes of the poorest strata of Americans are about equal to those of the average for the G-7 nations - better than some, worse than others. It simply isn't true that the poor here are significantly poorer than their counterparts in other advanced countries. We are different from Canada and some other G-7 nations in that we enjoy greater economic mobility - the poor on average stay poor for shorter periods - and we have a much higher average income and much greater income disparity than other G-7 countries. These differences reflect basic social choices. The United States is a more competitive society economically and uses fewer government directed income transfer mechanisms than many other G-7 countries, Canada among them. It remains to be seen if Canada and Europe will be able to sustain their relatively rigid labor markets and generous social welfare systems in an era of ageing populations and a growing gap in labor productivity. My impression is that Canada's prospects in this may be better than Europe's, but the issue is not at all clear.

Both Canada and the United Statres are different from Europe in that we experience much higher rates of immigration. In my view our system is better adapted to this condition than the European one. How Canada copes with both is a bit of a mystery to me. Perhaps an interesting topic for discussion.

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McGentrix wrote:

Use American software in there American computers using American chips while surfing the Internet that was created in America?

That last part is debatable. The surfable part of the web (any internet address that has an http:// in it) was invented at CERN, located near Geneva on the border between Switzerland and France.

As for the heat wave, most of that was what statisticians heartlessly call a 'harvesting effect'. That is to say, its main effect was to make old people with weak cardiovascular systems die a few weaks earlier than they otherwise would. In the mortality statistics, this shows up as thousands of excess deaths during the heat wave, followed by a 'death shortage' of several thousand in the first few months after the heat wave. But the sensational number of excess deaths gets widely reported while the equally sensational death shortage doesn't. I would be very surprised if the overall mortality in 2003 was much different than in other years.

As heat waves go, there isn't much difference between Europe and America. I hear there was a very bad one in Chicago a few years back, and that its impact was comparable to European heatwaves of equal temperature.

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McGentrix wrote:

C'mon now, Walt. You mean to tell me you never watch American movies or watch American TV shows? No one wears any American fashions? Don't watch American sports? Don't enjoy American food? Drive American cars? Use American software in there American computers using American chips while surfing the Internet that was created in America?

McG,

You're partly right and clearly haven't spent much time in Europe because some things are way off...

American movies... Yes
American TV...Yes
American fashions... Europeans would consider that an oxymoron. Yes, baseball caps and a smattering of Ralph Lauren/DKNY/Hilfiger are worn here, but we don't go for plaid and don't habitually wear white sports shoes and socks, except for sport
American sports...That's an absolute "no" - baseball, American football, hockey and basketball are never shown outside the night slots...we have our own sporting traditions!
American food...you mean processed so far as to disguise its origins in nature e.g. American Cheese? Don't even get me started on the standard of bread! Most food of American origin is found laughable by the Europeans.
American cars...a very few Jeeps but we prefer our own marques: BMW, Mercedes, Audi, VW, Peugeot, Renault, Citroen, Fiat, Jaguar, Aston Martin, Land Rover...do I need to go on? (admittedly some are now owned by US companies, GM and Daimler-Chrysler)
American computers/chips - OK, Intel's the market leader, I'll give you that one!

but, get your facts right... Shocked

Origin of the internet - created by Tim Berners-Lee...who is...English, now living in America, admittedly:

Born in London in 1955
Studied at Wandsworth's Emanuel School
Read physics at Queen's College, Oxford
Banned from using the university's computer when he and a friend were caught hacking
Built own computer with old TV, a Motorola microprocessor and soldering iron
Created web in late 1980s and early 1990s at Cern
Offered it free on the net
Previously awarded an OBE
In 1994 he founded World Wide Web Consortium at MIT
In 1999 he became first holder of the 3Com Founders chair
Time magazine named him one of the top 20 thinkers of the 20th Century

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georgeob1 wrote:

Who invented hamburgers??? :wink:

yes who? YUK!!! the greatest justification for a lynch mob ever! please take back your McDonalds and Starbucks and Burger King and .....

and everything Kitchen Pete said

and we have our own very good films and also European films

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kitchenpete wrote:

but, get your facts right...

Origin of the internet - created by Tim Berners-Lee...who is...English, now living in America, admittedly:

Born in London in 1955
Studied at Wandsworth's Emanuel School
Read physics at Queen's College, Oxford
Banned from using the university's computer when he and a friend were caught hacking
Built own computer with old TV, a Motorola microprocessor and soldering iron
Created web in late 1980s and early 1990s at Cern
Offered it free on the net
Previously awarded an OBE
In 1994 he founded World Wide Web Consortium at MIT
In 1999 he became first holder of the 3Com Founders chair
Time magazine named him one of the top 20 thinkers of the 20th Century

Without getting to far off track here - This isn't a "fact" at all. Tim Berners-Lee designed the World Wide Web concept - NOT the Internet. The WWW rides on top of the Internet and use one protocol (http) of the many that are available. The Internet itself came out of the US DoD and was original called ARPAnet based on the x.25 protocol.

While many people think of the WWW as being the Internet it isn't. In fact, the WWW can run on any IP based network and doesn't need the Internet and the Internet existed prior to the WWW. The two currently work together but either can exist independently of the other as well.

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OK, fishin'

Let's call it a score draw!

KP

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Well, I am glad we agree on some things at least. I lived in Germany for nine years and I have travelled to every country in Europe except Portugal.

Quote:

American sports...That's an absolute "no" - baseball, American football, hockey and basketball are never shown outside the night slots...we have our own sporting traditions!

Football and Rugby are both excellent sports as are the myriad of other sports Europeans play, but I would go out on a limb and say that the World Series, Superbowl and Stanley Cup all get the same attention the world cup does. I am not saying they are as popular as soccor, but American sports do have a place on European TV.

Quote:

American food...you mean processed so far as to disguise its origins in nature e.g. American Cheese? Don't even get me started on the standard of bread! Most food of American origin is found laughable by the Europeans.

There is more to American cuisine than McDonalds (which you can find in every major European city). Cajun, Bar-b-que, pizza (chicago deep dish, NY thin crust, etc...), the list goes on. Go to McDonalds this afternoon and tell me how long you have to wait in line...

Quote:

Origin of the internet - created by Tim Berners-Lee...who is...English, now living in America, admittedly:

Born in London in 1955
Studied at Wandsworth's Emanuel School
Read physics at Queen's College, Oxford
Banned from using the university's computer when he and a friend were caught hacking
Built own computer with old TV, a Motorola microprocessor and soldering iron
Created web in late 1980s and early 1990s at Cern
Offered it free on the net
Previously awarded an OBE
In 1994 he founded World Wide Web Consortium at MIT
In 1999 he became first holder of the 3Com Founders chair
Time magazine named him one of the top 20 thinkers of the 20th Century

The actual history of the Internet

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McGentix

I agree - but PIZZA really is of Neapolitan (Italy) origin - with the first pizzeria appearing there in New York in 1905.

The hamburger patty and sandwich were brought by 19th-century German immigrants to the United States - called here "Frikadelle".

Henry VIII was both forbidding and actually playing football (rugby/soccer)(as just was found out [link]).

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Everybody knows Al Gore invented the internet, Thomas.

Thanks for this, though: "asset deficit with America". That would be the economists version of the accountant's "Cash Flow". We are indeed increasing cash flow at the expense of Canada (and others), but I'm not at all sure if this can be taken to be of benefit to either party.

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Walter Hinteler wrote:

McGentix

I agree - but PIZZA really is of Neapolitan (Italy) origin - with the first pizzeria appearing there in New York in 1905.

The hamburger patty and sandwich were brought by 19th-century German immigrants to the United States - called here "Frikadelle".

Henry VIII was both forbidding and actually playing football (rugby/soccer)(as just was found out [link]).

I don't want to claim that any of those were invented by Americans as we are a country of immigrants, but we have taken it and made it into something that is wholly American (which to me means a mixture of cultures from around the world living in harmony).

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McGentrix wrote:

Well, I am glad we agree on some things at least. I lived in Germany for nine years and I have travelled to every country in Europe except Portugal.

OK - I guessed wrong.

McGentrix wrote:

Quote:
American sports...That's an absolute "no" - baseball, American football, hockey and basketball are never shown outside the night slots...we have our own sporting traditions!

Football and Rugby are both excellent sports as are the myriad of other sports Europeans play, but I would go out on a limb and say that the World Series, Superbowl and Stanley Cup all get the same attention the world cup does. I am not saying they are as popular as soccor, but American sports do have a place on European TV.

Simply not true. World Series gets next to no interest, Superbowl is shown well into the small hours of Monday morning and most people go to bed before the end of the first 1/4. I don't even know what sport is played for the Stanley Cup.

For the (football) World Cup, every nation in Europe will be glued to televisions for 3 weeks. Offices and streets are empty for in any nation which is playing.

McGentrix wrote:

Quote:
American food...you mean processed so far as to disguise its origins in nature e.g. American Cheese? Don't even get me started on the standard of bread! Most food of American origin is found laughable by the Europeans.

There is more to American cuisine than McDonalds (which you can find in every major European city). Cajun, Bar-b-que, pizza (chicago deep dish, NY thin crust, etc...), the list goes on. Go to McDonalds this afternoon and tell me how long you have to wait in line....

BBQ and Cajun are good examples. I've loved Maine Lobster and Clam Chowdah plus New York deli sandwiches but we don't really get those in Europe because we like our own food...home made, where possible.

I'd rather not go to McDonalds. I've only eaten from one, say, about twice in the last five years!

Tell them in Naples that the Pizza is American!

McGentrix wrote:

Quote:
Origin of the internet - created by Tim Berners-Lee...who is...English, now living in America, admittedly:

Born in London in 1955
Studied at Wandsworth's Emanuel School
Read physics at Queen's College, Oxford
Banned from using the university's computer when he and a friend were caught hacking
Built own computer with old TV, a Motorola microprocessor and soldering iron
Created web in late 1980s and early 1990s at Cern
Offered it free on the net
Previously awarded an OBE
In 1994 he founded World Wide Web Consortium at MIT
In 1999 he became first holder of the 3Com Founders chair
Time magazine named him one of the top 20 thinkers of the 20th Century

The actual history of the Internet

OK - I've conceded that one, already.

Now, consider how (despite your time in Europe), you still don't understand us...and how America may be equally misunderstood. This misunderstanding, together with a generous seasoning of jealousy (of wealth) and fear (of military power) are at the root of the "hate" to which this thread relates.

I've chosen to spend about 5 weeks of the last year in the USA and enjoyed myself enormously...my greatest love to date has been an American woman and I have plenty of friends from the USA. Don't think that it's me who hates the USA.

Then again, I still consider myself European, despite the language differences, and closer in overall outlook to other Europeans than to most Americans!

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This discussion is getting funny.

Reminded me of my little brother at grade school.

To the question: "Where was Christopher Columbus from?", he answered: "From the United States".

Do I really need to say that he flunked?

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He might just have been making an inciteful observation about the distinction between Christopher Columbus (the American myth) and Cristobal Colon (the man).

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once again KP is right. We have absolutely no interest in American sports - and why should we? I woudn't expect you to watch our football matches avidly. The rare things shown are on in the middle of the night and have a tiny tiny audience.

we have a few basketball teams of our own but not with a huge following like Rugby, Football or Cricket has. American football is a tiny minority sport, rarely played on a local level and certainly not televised. Baseball ??? forget it! Basketball is based on the girls game of netball isn't it? Twisted Evil

and baseball on the girls game of rounders? Twisted Evil

Oh and beach volleyball had us curled up with laughter when it was included in the Olympics!

actually the baseball unform makes me giggle personally, strange looking outfit!

someone seems to be claiming an awful lot of European food as American! just because it has become part of American culture doesn't make it American - it is still Italian/German/Jewish/Irish whatever

This claiming the credit for everything is one of the truly irritating things to Europeans and others ... you are NOT all guilty I know so this remark is aimed at the few.

I lived on mixed English-American bases for some time as a child and so mixed a lot with Americans. The 2 nations divided by a common language often held true! the social norms, manners etc could be very different.

We all tend to see the world from our own perspective, some of us realise this and others don't. Most of you on A2K have the wit and perception to see this.

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...and the ship he came in on was the Chris Craft

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When They say "I hate America", what do you think They mean?

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