44
   

Florida's Stand your Ground law

 
 
Ragman
 
  1  
Reply Fri 20 Apr, 2012 02:51 pm
@panzade,
Re those pictures: who knows under what conditions he obtained those scratches and what caused them? He could've obtained those scratches in any of a dozen ways. For example, he could've gotten them falling to the ground in the fight. Had it occured this way, it is NOT proof of anything - not even whether or not there was even a fight, really. Even if there WAS a fight, once more it is NO justification for the use of deadly force.

Wonder what would have occured in the press and/or with the police if both of these people were of the same race ? I think surely there'd be a lot less notoriety and sensationalism. Maybe there'd have been no killing?
Setanta
 
  3  
Reply Fri 20 Apr, 2012 02:52 pm
@Ragman,
If he got those in a fight with Martin, why is the blood bright red? Blood turns brown fairly quickly.
Ragman
 
  1  
Reply Fri 20 Apr, 2012 02:55 pm
@Setanta,
Is it red dye or ketchup? So what is the difference if the blood hadn't dried yet? Maybe he was still bleeding? I cut myself the other day and the blood was red for about an hour.

And if so... then what? I seen no proof or indication of anything useful.
Baldimo
 
  1  
Reply Fri 20 Apr, 2012 03:09 pm
@Setanta,
They have looked at the time tag on the photo and found the pic was taken about 3 minutes after the shooting.

I doubt your "blood turns brown fairly quickly" remark. If the blood has dried then yes, but as long as its wet its red.

When I was deployed to Afghanistan, we had a day where some idiot blew up a funeral and we had to carry bodies for triage. The wounds I saw were at least an hr old, and the blood was bright red. The only blood that wasn't red was the dried blood.
Setanta
 
  2  
Reply Fri 20 Apr, 2012 03:14 pm
@Ragman,
I question not whether or not it's blood, but when the injury occured. Keep in mind that he was supposed to have been out in the rain, so any bleeding then ought to have been washed away. I spent three years in the Army Medical Corps. We were taught to debride superficial wounds, in order to find the actual site of the wound. I don't see in that image the dried blood and dead tissue which would indicate the site(s) of the wound(s). It looks suspicious to me, all too recently inflicted.

Of course, if you just want to argue, help yourself.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Fri 20 Apr, 2012 03:15 pm
@Baldimo,
Who are "they?" See my response to Ragman.
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Fri 20 Apr, 2012 03:31 pm
@Setanta,
According to the Detroit Free Press (the only source i've found with a timeline giving hours and minutes) the police arrived on the scene at 7:17 p.m., and Zimmerman arrived at the police station at 7:52 p.m. That's not three minutes, that's thiry-five minutes.
0 Replies
 
ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Fri 20 Apr, 2012 03:37 pm
@Setanta,
Bingo.
0 Replies
 
sozobe
 
  2  
Reply Fri 20 Apr, 2012 03:45 pm
When I first saw that this morning it said it wasn't a police photograph, but a photo that someone on the scene (a friend? just an onlooker?) took. I can't remember now where I saw it though, if I find it easily I'll post.
sozobe
 
  2  
Reply Fri 20 Apr, 2012 03:49 pm
@sozobe,
I think this was it:

Quote:
The person who took the photograph of a bloodied Zimmerman, asking not to be identified, told ABC News exclusively that they did not see the scuffle that night, but did hear it. The person recalled seeing Martin's prostrate body on the wet grass and said the gunpowder burns on Martin's gray hoodie were clearly visible.

The photographer said that after the shooting, Zimmerman asked the photographer to call his wife. When the photographer asked him what to say, Zimmerman blurted out, "Man, just tell her I shot someone."


http://abcnews.go.com/US/george-zimmerman-tells-trayvon-martins-parents/story?id=16177849
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Fri 20 Apr, 2012 03:52 pm
Iff the photograph were taken that soon after the event, certainly the blood would still be bright red. We do not, however, know how Zimmerman sustained those injuries, and although it may not occur to everyone right away, he's cannot be considered a reliable witness.
parados
 
  2  
Reply Fri 20 Apr, 2012 05:02 pm
@roger,
roger wrote:

That's an interesting thought.

It kind of puts the "self defense" argument in the position of having no evidence to support it if Zimmerman doesn't testify.
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  0  
Reply Fri 20 Apr, 2012 07:49 pm
@Setanta,
If the photograph were taken that soon after the event, certainly the blood would still be bright red.

Hypercorrection.
0 Replies
 
snood
 
  1  
Reply Sat 21 Apr, 2012 12:37 pm
Conservatives supposedly concerned with color-blind enforcement of the SYG law will be jumping to this woman's defense, I'm s-ooo-o sure....

"...Alexander is facing a mandatory 20 years in jail for firing a warning shot at her husband..

...Alexander reported to police that her husband had abused her for years. On the night in question, they had an altercation and she retrieved a firearm. There were children present. Alexander says that her husband lunged at her and she fired the weapon in the air to stop him. She was later arrested for aggravated assault and per her attorney claimed that she was standing her ground.

...Alexander did not shoot anyone. No one was injured when she fired her weapon, so why is she in jail?..."

http://habueld.hubpages.com/hub/Stand-Your-Ground-The-Case-of-Marissa-Alexander
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Sat 21 Apr, 2012 12:45 pm
@snood,
Quote:
..Alexander did not shoot anyone. No one was injured when she fired her weapon, so why is she in jail?..

Because she was convicted by a jury.
snood
 
  1  
Reply Sat 21 Apr, 2012 12:52 pm
@hawkeye10,
hawkeye10 wrote:

Quote:
..Alexander did not shoot anyone. No one was injured when she fired her weapon, so why is she in jail?..

Because she was convicted by a jury.


She was arrested even though she was "standing her ground". Why?
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Sat 21 Apr, 2012 12:56 pm
@snood,
Quote:
Marissa Alexander married Mr. Smith in 2010. He contacted Politic365 yesterday and described the 2010 confrontation he and his wife had saying, “Marissa is not portraying herself as she is, I was begging for my life while my kids were holding on to my side, the gun was pointed at me.” Mr. Smith confirms there was a restraining order on him requested by his wife at the time of the incident but also claimed he had a restraining order on his wife as well. According to Smith, the couple was married in May 2010 and the altercation where a bullet was shot by Marissa Alexander into a wall occurred in August 2010.

“I got my kids out of the house through the front door. We ran down the street. My son called the police on his cell phone and I called the police on my phone,” Alexander’s husband claims. He informed Politic365 he is a 36-year old self employed truck driver and that his wife Marissa is 31.

“Marissa didn’t come out of the house until 30 minutes later after SWAT had to be called out. SWAT had to get in touch with one of Marissa’s family members and SWAT had to tell Marissa if she didn’t come out in five minutes they were coming in there to get her. It wasn’t like she came out when the police got there,” Mr. Smith said.

“She’s just using the stand-your-ground because of the Trayvon incident. I feel sorry for her but at the same time I thought I was going to die that day in front of my kids,” Smith added.
.
.
.
In 2011, Marissa Alexander’s case was subject to a stand your ground motion hearing according to Lincoln Alexander. Her stand-your-ground motion was denied by Circuit Court Judge Elizabeth Senterfitt. According to Lincoln Alexander, the judge said Marissa Alexander could have exited the house during the altercation as she and her husband argued – though the Florida stand-your-ground law states a person “has no duty to retreat.”

http://politic365.com/2012/04/19/exclusive-marissa-alexanders-current-husband-speaks/

Sounds like California and Florida do not have the same law, but we would need to check.
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Sat 21 Apr, 2012 01:07 pm
@hawkeye10,
Here you go Snood

Quote:
The stand-your-ground doctrine, which has vaulted into national prominence with the killing of Florida teenager Trayvon Martin, isn't limited to the two dozen states that have passed laws since 2005 expanding the right to use deadly force in confrontations.

It's also the rule in California, by court decree. For more than a century, the state's judges have declared that a person who reasonably believes he or she faces serious injury or death from an assailant does not have to back off - inside or outside the home - and instead can use whatever force is needed to eliminate the danger.

The California Legislature has never enacted one of the National Rifle Association-sponsored laws, pioneered by Florida in 2005, that spell out the rights of a defendant in such confrontations and the procedures for applying them in court. But in California, the judicial rulings had much the same effect. The rulings are binding on state courts and are reflected in judges' instructions to juries in cases involving claims of self-defense.

The instructions say a person under attack is even entitled, "if reasonably necessary, to pursue an assailant until the danger of death or great bodily injury has passed. This is so even if safety could have been achieved by retreating."

Most states had similar rules until 30 or 40 years ago, when some passed laws barring a claim of self-defense outside the home if the person could have fled safely, said Andrea Roth, a UC Berkeley law professor. She said almost all states still allow the use of deadly force against home intruders.

"California's law perpetuates the old frontier rule," she said. "This is not some new brainchild of the NRA."

The Florida law, however, contains a major pro-defense feature absent in California and other states: a pretrial, nonjury hearing in which a judge, after considering the evidence, decides whether it's more likely than not that the defendant acted in self-defense.

If so, the judge must dismiss the charges. In California, such factual disputes must be resolved by a jury.

In the Martin case, a judge will have to decide whether it was more likely than not that George Zimmerman, the neighborhood watchman who fatally shot the unarmed 17-year-old in a gated community in Sanford, Fla., on Feb. 26, reasonably believed he was in danger from Martin.

"That hearing is the big difference," said Marty Vranicar, assistant chief executive of the California District Attorneys Association and a former Los Angeles prosecutor. "A jury's going to be deciding that in California. ... I have often had more luck presenting my case to 12 fact-finders than to an individual bench officer."

There are also differences in the legal culture of California and a state such as Florida, where self-defense rights have been broadened by the Legislature, said Robert Weisberg, a Stanford law professor.

Passage of such a law is "a signal to the courts that the overall legislative intent is to be extremely deferential to defendants who claim self-defense," he said.



Read more: http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2012/04/14/BA2J1O3418.DTL#ixzz1shg56sbk
0 Replies
 
FreeDuck
 
  1  
Reply Mon 23 Apr, 2012 06:31 pm
@sozobe,
sozobe wrote:

I think this was it:

Quote:
The person who took the photograph of a bloodied Zimmerman, asking not to be identified, told ABC News exclusively that they did not see the scuffle that night, but did hear it. The person recalled seeing Martin's prostrate body on the wet grass and said the gunpowder burns on Martin's gray hoodie were clearly visible.




I read that too. I don't want to get all conspiracy theory, but the first thing that jumped out at me was that he claimed to be able to see powder burns on Trayvon's hoody, but the police report says he was found face down, with his arms folded under his body. The powder burns would have been on the front of his hoody and not visible. Maybe it doesn't matter, but I think it's strange.
sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Mon 23 Apr, 2012 06:39 pm
@FreeDuck,
Huh. Good point.

I'm definitely looking forward to the trial and seeing more evidence/ getting a better narrative of what happened. Preparing for this to be one of those forever unknowables though, which would suck.
 

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