44
   

Florida's Stand your Ground law

 
 
OmSigDAVID
 
  -2  
Reply Sun 8 Apr, 2012 02:39 pm
@hawkeye10,
Quote:
) As a volunteer for that group, he ignored their instructions that volunteers are not allowed to arm themselves
hawkeye10 wrote:
I have seen no evidence that this group forbid its members from carrying a weapon.
That woud be like the Book of the Month Club
forbidding its members from carrying weapons.


hawkeye10 wrote:
The police had no authority to forbid it, and in fact all the literature on setting up a watch group is consistent that the practice is discouraged by the state but not forbidden
It woud be unConstitutional for the police to intimidate
the citizens from exercising their Constitutional Right of carrying defensive guns
OR
of looking around, watching the area of their naborhood.





David
hawkeye10
 
  -2  
Reply Sun 8 Apr, 2012 02:42 pm
@OmSigDAVID,
Quote:
It woud be unConstitutional for the police to intimidate
the citizens from exercising their Constitutional Right of carrying defensive guns


Good point....so why does the state continually get away with doing just that re citizens watch groups???
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Sun 8 Apr, 2012 02:42 pm
@hawkeye10,
Quote:
Given your hostility towards the US government


More tripe, Hawk. My hostility is towards the war crimes committed by US governments. This is evidently a concept that is too difficult for you to grasp.

Quote:
one might think that you would be interested in commenting on the governments authority to order Zimmerman about before this unfortunate event.


"governments authority to order Zimmerman about"; jaysus Hawk - one might think that you possessed enough gray matter to discuss this - evidently not.

Quote:
but no, all you come up with a gratuitous personal insult.


"That's been the case throughout your entire life, Rog" wasn't a personal insult, it was a description of the facts. Y'all are woefully ignorant of the atrocities committed by your governments. This hardly applies just to Roger.



0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  -1  
Reply Sun 8 Apr, 2012 02:50 pm
@hawkeye10,
Quote:
SANFORD, Fla. — Last August, Wendy Dorival got a call about setting up a local neighborhood watch. As the volunteer coordinator for the Police Department here, she gets such calls regularly, and the city already had at least 10 active watch groups. So she thought nothing of this call, from George Zimmerman

She set up a visit for the next month at the Retreat at Twin Lakes, a gated community that had been dealing with a string of burglaries. When 25 residents showed up, a decent turnout, she had the residents introduce themselves; after all, people join the groups to look out for each other. She then gave a PowerPoint presentation and distributed a handbook. As she always does, she emphasized what a neighborhood watch is — and what it is not.

In every presentation, “I go through what the rules and responsibilities are,” she said Thursday. The volunteers’ role, she said, is “being the eyes and ears” for the police, “not the vigilante.” Members of a neighborhood watch “are not supposed to confront anyone,” she said. “We get paid to get into harm’s way. You don’t do that. You just call them from the safety of your home or your vehicle.”

Using a gun in the neighborhood watch role would be out of the question, she said in an interview.


http://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/23/us/trayvon-martin-death-spotlights-neighborhood-watch-groups.html?pagewanted=all


We see here David the State intimidating the citizens, so where the **** is SCOTUS on this practice??
JTT
 
  2  
Reply Sun 8 Apr, 2012 02:59 pm
@hawkeye10,
Quote:
As the volunteer coordinator for the Police Department here, she gets such calls regularly,


How come you can't admit that you were wrong, Mr I claim to be Mr Honesty?

What part of "volunteer coordinator" don't you understand?
0 Replies
 
MontereyJack
 
  2  
Reply Sun 8 Apr, 2012 03:01 pm
So under Florida's egregiously bad gun laws Zimmerman may have been acting in some sense legally, at least up to the point where he confronted Trayvon, after which it becomes higly questionable at the very least, but that night he was NOT operating as a member or a representative of a recognized neighborhood watch organization, since he was violating the organization's rules. He was operating strictly on his own and has to bear the consequences of that. There's no institutional cover for him.
Irishk
 
  4  
Reply Sun 8 Apr, 2012 03:09 pm
@hawkeye10,
Quote:
We see here David the State intimidating the citizens...
How so? The State isn't forcing anyone to voluntarily join a neighborhood watch group. Are you implying that it's unconstitutional for such organizations to adopt rules and regulations and then expect their members to abide by them?
hawkeye10
 
  -1  
Reply Sun 8 Apr, 2012 03:10 pm
@MontereyJack,
Quote:
that night he was NOT operating as a member or a representative of a recognized neighborhood watch organization, since he was violating the organization's rules

Please supply documentation for this assertion.
hawkeye10
 
  0  
Reply Sun 8 Apr, 2012 03:11 pm
@Irishk,
Irishk wrote:

Quote:
We see here David the State intimidating the citizens...
How so? The State isn't forcing anyone to voluntarily join a neighborhood watch group. Are you implying that it's unconstitutional for such organizations to adopt rules and regulations and then expect their members to abide by them?

It is unconstitutional for the state to pressure citizens watch groups into being unarmed.
Irishk
 
  2  
Reply Sun 8 Apr, 2012 03:15 pm
@hawkeye10,
Zimmerman called for assistance in forming the group. He was under no pressure to make that call. He called the Sanford Police Department.
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Sun 8 Apr, 2012 03:20 pm
@hawkeye10,
Quote:
Please supply documentation for this assertion.


In your own post, Hawk, Post: # 4,951,108, the one or one of the ones that are using to advance your bogus claims.
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Sun 8 Apr, 2012 03:21 pm
@Irishk,
Irishk wrote:

Zimmerman called for assistance in forming the group. He was under no pressure to make that call. He called the Sanford Police Department.


What is your point?
0 Replies
 
roger
 
  1  
Reply Sun 8 Apr, 2012 03:21 pm
@Irishk,
Yes. Police routinely have police and "civilians" on the payroll. Whether 911 operators are even on the department's payroll, they have no authority that I know of to bid or forbid anything. They are not trained officers, by any means. To use David's example, he might as well have been given instructions and advice by The Book of the Month Club. That it was sound advice, does not matter. The operator could as easily had said "Shoot the SOB". He would have no legal defense based on such an instruction.

I'm not really sure a police officer could have given a binding order, either.
hawkeye10
 
  -2  
Reply Sun 8 Apr, 2012 03:26 pm
@JTT,
JTT wrote:

Quote:
Please supply documentation for this assertion.


In your own post, Hawk, Post: # 4,951,108, the one or one of the ones that are using to advance your bogus claims.


The police do not speak for the citizens watch group, only those citizens in the group can do so. We have heard no assertion on their part that Zimmerman was violating their rules.
0 Replies
 
Irishk
 
  3  
Reply Sun 8 Apr, 2012 03:36 pm
@roger,
Quote:
That it was sound advice, does not matter.
It actually makes one wonder why he placed the call at all. He obviously had no intention of following the operator/dispatcher's advice, just as he had no intention of referring to the training offered by the Sanford Police Department for neighborhood watch volunteers. No weapons. Don't confront.
hawkeye10
 
  0  
Reply Sun 8 Apr, 2012 03:51 pm
@Irishk,
Irishk wrote:

Quote:
That it was sound advice, does not matter.
It actually makes one wonder why he placed the call at all. He obviously had no intention of following the operator/dispatcher's advice, just as he had no intention of referring to the training offered by the Sanford Police Department for neighborhood watch volunteers. No weapons. Don't confront.


He wanted to link up with the police so that the police would deal with this situation, the 911 operator in this situation acts as a liaison, as they have a direct link to the police dispatcher and thus can get forces dispatched. Where you get the idea that Zimmerman either did or should have dialed up 911 to get instructions I have no clue.
0 Replies
 
snood
 
  2  
Reply Sun 8 Apr, 2012 03:55 pm
@Irishk,
Irishk wrote:

Quote:
That it was sound advice, does not matter.
It actually makes one wonder why he placed the call at all. He obviously had no intention of following the operator/dispatcher's advice, just as he had no intention of referring to the training offered by the Sanford Police Department for neighborhood watch volunteers. No weapons. Don't confront.


Unless he planned to push the confrontation to the point that something (getting to fire his weapon) would happen, and premeditated that the only way to be sure to get away with it would be to claim self-defense (standing his ground) to the police.
hawkeye10
 
  0  
Reply Sun 8 Apr, 2012 04:02 pm
@snood,
Quote:
Unless he planned to push the confrontation to the point that something (getting to fire his weapon) would happen, and premeditated that the only way to be sure to get away with it would be to claim self-defense (standing his ground) to the police.


This ranks right up there with your insistence that throngs of racist whites are plotting to kill Obama because he a black president......
Irishk
 
  3  
Reply Sun 8 Apr, 2012 04:07 pm
@snood,
I don't believe Hawkeye's explanation that he made the call because he wanted law enforcement to deal with the situation. The only thing they got to deal with is a dead teenager.
0 Replies
 
roger
 
  1  
Reply Sun 8 Apr, 2012 04:11 pm
@snood,
I have no doubt there are people out there with guns, just begging to justify the expense and mindset - without being charged. Whether that was the case here, I'm unable to say. There are also people whose anger escalates itself till it becomes uncontrollable.
0 Replies
 
 

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