Can life have meaning if your dreams are unattainable?

So does this mean that I am off ignore...that you have decided you are now of strong enough constitution to let your eyes see my evil words??

Isn't that the truth, firefly!

Here some good advice for MichaelJ

"If you want to be happy, make someone else happy. If you want to find the right person in your life, be the right person. If you want to see change in the world, become the change you want to see."
Deepak Chopra

More intelligent people know that we must all make ourselves happy, that no one can do it for us....

Well, I don't disagree with you Hawkeye, but I don't completely disagree with Calamity's quote of Deepak - it does generate a happy feeling when we contribute to someone elses smile, laugh, or or happiness ( the other two sentences of the Deepak Choppra quote I have no issue with...although I would slightly rephrase one of them to : if you want to find the right person, be the right person for yourself & the person you wish to find...as being so should result in you still being completely true to yourself)

I don't think it's as foundational cause of happiness - compared to as when we go about build the foundations of a happiness within ourselves & our lives - but once the foundation is in place, contributing to others happiness certainly brings a higher form of happiness into our lives. We are, after all, both : individual, and social, creatures.

All that said, I detest (though that may be too strong a word) the use of the phrase 'make someone else'...we can't make anyone anything...just as no one can make us anything...we simply contribute.

I THINK this the first time YOU have called me a misogynist firefly. Before you'd always say that my problems were with people in general. Now you're on the defensive because your OBVIOUS dislike of men has been dragged out into the light.

Calamity Jane said this:

"firefly, who has shown nothing but patience and good faith in you, MichaelJ."

Um ...ok let's look at some of the recent things she's said to me:

~You're not an appealing person, MichaelJ

~You are a very unappealing and quite emotionally immature person.

~You could, however, consider male to female gender reassignment treatment/surgery.

~So, let him go on drinking, and eventually bump himself off

...and that's just going back a few pages.

so while firefly has offered a lot of advice, she's also made sure to take more than her fare share of jabs at me, while I have never insulted her in a personal way.

I actually think you're a very intelligent person firefly. I mean it's obvious you are. And I think if you look back on this thread, there were some nice things I said about you and some thank yous given for the advice, even if I also disagreed with it.

I think it's obvious you have MAJOR issues with men contradicting you, and now you've changed your tune about me having trouble with all people and have gotten on the bandwagon to call me a misogynist.

You never once had to agree with my attitudes about women as a whole, but here's what you did with every single instance I pointed out of those two women doing something wrong:

1) You justified their actions by rationalizing their behavior or their motivations for their behavior, and

2) You spun the situation to where what happened (even when it was THEIR actions we were talking about) was somehow MY fault.

You lose credibility because you OBVIOUSLY have just as many problems with men as I do with women. Yet you get up on your high horse and you can't even acknowledge that maybe someone from your gender ACTUALLY did something shitty.


vikorr:

"I see those in my life as a reflection of who I am"

I partially agree with this because I'd like to hope that the cool people I've had in my life have been a reflection of myself, but what about famous people, or people with a lot of money, OR good looking women? They certainly attract others interested in things other than being a reflection of who they are.

"In a rather complex area...and as a generalisation...I don't particularly buy it as 'women are manipulative though' - it seems to me that most genuinely are confused about what they want

I still think women are manipulative in other areas, but in the way you're describing this aspect of their psyches', you sir are dead on right! They are confused!

Jack and myself had so so many things in common. All the same interests, sense of humor, ect. But it was like we were opposite sides of the same coin. He was outgoing, smooth, fake, and manipulative. I was kind of introverted, awkward, genuine, and caring. Mary was obviously attracted to the things that were similar about both Jack and I.

"they actually believe that they want what they say they want...but when they get it, they get turned off" ~SO TRUE!

When Mary was with Jack, he treated her like crap. He'd hit on other girls in front of her, he'd never return her calls or texts, he'd ditch her without warning, prioritize other people over her ect, ect. She would CONSTANTLY complain about how "bad" he treated her. But the more Jack did this, the more Mary would wonder about him (frequently by asking me about it). Does Jack still like me? Where's Jack Mike, have you seen him? The more he ignored her, the more she loved him.

Now when Mary and I started, all I'd ever hear about from her was "Jack was such a douchebag!", and that she really loved me because I wasn't like that. Because I was kind, caring, deep, thoughtful, ect. But the more thoughtful, caring, ect that I was, the more it turned her off!

And I would test it too from time to time, I'd spend one day sending her sweet "lovey dovey" texts, and then the next SEVERAL days I'd ignore her texts and calls, and disappear with my friends. EVERY single time I ignored her, she expressed MORE interest in me. However, I'm just not a manipulative person and I really loved Mary. Eventually my caring and thoughtfulness was all I showed her, and it turned her off. Even though she SWORE up and down that's what she wanted.

Because you see humans are animals after all. In order for mating to be successful, the male MUST dominate the female. The female MUST be submissive.

Mary was unbelievably gorgeous. Guys had kissed her ass her entire life. That's why she loved Jack so much; he didn't kiss her ass and in fact treated her like ****! He "won" because he dominated her this way, giving her what she REALLY wanted all the while she was saying she wanted something else.

So I guess I agree with you Hawkeye. But it makes me upset, because if you're right then my dream is most certainly NOT attainable just for this reason alone: Men and Women in a relationship together can't be friends.

That's very depressing because I want a friend who's my lover too. I even think sex is better with someone who's your friend, MUCH better. I think it's where REAL passion comes into play for me. I've had sex with people I didn't love. Good looking women who definitely aroused my baser urges, but I felt REAL passion with my fiance and especially with Mary.

Because sex wasn't just sex with them. I don't know how to described the difference better than that. I need passion, (for me) that's never going to come from someone I just think is sexy. It's going to come from someone I like as a person. I think it's the same reason I think intelligent women are sexy. Especially if they're smarter than me. That's hot!

But apparently I'm wrong because Mary did after all run off in the end. I think you can't be friends because the male MUST dominate the female in order to satisfy what the female wants subconsciously. This can only really be achieved through mind-gaming and manipulation. Through being a player.

That makes me very depressed. It makes me sad to think humans are only at the mercy of our baser urges. It makes me sad to think two people can't love each other for who they really are.

If ""respect" is the antithesis of passion" Hawkeye, then we truly live in a sad world because that means women can only feel passion for men who dominate them, and men can only feel passion for women they don't respect.

Earlier on in this thread I mentioned a study that was published last summer about rich people, and how the study showed that they were less empathetic to the needs of others.

Makes sense right? They've had all the doors in life open to them their entire lives, they've never really been told 'no'.

Well women are exactly like this. They never get told 'no', so how could they ever have any empathy for all those men they reject or use or hurt? They have no reference point for what it feels like to be at the mercy of someone else. They have no reference point of what it feels like to actually have to work hard to get someone interested in them.

How could they ever have empathy for the ex boyfriends they've manipulated or cheated on? In their mind they've done no wrong.

Have you ever noticed that (in general) the better looking a woman is, the worse her personality is? The worse she treats others (particularly men)? That's because they have no point of reference for how others feel, because they get their asses kissed on a daily basis.

vikorr, I've re-read some of your advice. I do think a lot of what you've said COULD be true. I want to believe it is. But what Hawkeye has said can't be denied, it's so painfully obviously true in society.

My dreams are unattainable. I'd be better off dead than trying to chase something that doesn't exist.

I do think you have problems with people in general. Even your last therapist gave up after two years and told you you were hopeless. While I don't think that is an appropriate comment for a therapist to make, I do think it's a reflection of how difficult it is to interact with you, even for a therapist. You are massively defensive, you have selective perception, your insight is nil, and your attitudes are rigid and mainly negative. These personality qualities, which are reflected in this thread as well, are things you bring to all your relationships, and things which will create problems in your relationships.
In addition, you describe yourself as socially awkward and lacking in poise, to a degree way beyond "shyness", and you are very emotionally immature and somewhat histrionic.

You are also a misogynist. You have said you hate women, they are evil, they are the devil, they are all sociopathic liars, etc. blah, blah, blah. There's no "bandwagon" to jump on, your attitudes are clearly misogynistic.

You started this thread to get advice/feedback from people. It is not my intention to insult you, I have been trying to be honest with you, in terms of my response to your postings. Why you have problems in your relationships, and why you have difficulty attracting women, and why you lack appeal to women, seems pretty obvious, and quite unrelated to any of the rationalizations and excuses you give to yourself. Since these things apparently do cause you distress, and interfere with your happiness, you should again seek professional help--but with some insight about how you sabotaged your previous therapy, and some greater motivation to really want to understand yourself and function better.

No, I really don't have problems with men, nor do you have any basis for saying that. You are not representative of all men, and my comments to you are specific to you and the personality traits you reflect in your posts. I don't engage in the sort of over-generalized, and inaccurate, and stereotypical thinking that you do regarding gender.

I no longer understand what you would like to get out of this thread, other than an audience to listen to you rant about how you've been victimized. You've said you're "100% convinced" you are right--which precludes any possibility that you will seriously consider anything anyone says that does not agree with, and reinforce, your pre-existing ideas and attitudes. You are quite closed minded, and apparently willing to self destruct, through booze and/or suicide, rather than trying to change and grow and find better solutions and coping mechanisms.

I gave you suggestions, earlier in this thread, about ways to find low cost/no cost therapy. I seriously urge you to try to follow through on those suggestions and get yourself some professional help.

**** MJ, you'd want to put legs on a snake.......this is not complicated, if you want a woman then figure out what makes her tick, what she needs and wants. Write an owners manual on her, and then give her what ever it is that makes her bloom. Maybe it is lots of cuddles and candy, maybe she wants you to posses her and slap her once in awhile. Find out. Who are you to decide that she should not have what she wants and needs?

If I may - Firefly and the other female posters here don't have problems with men in general - though they do have issues with certain men.

Hawkeye is one of those men, and he is also a bit of a rarity on these forums, and in distinct & minor sub group regarding his attitudes to women. He can explain that to you if he wants, though it has been hinted at.

Michael - regarding what I said that you quoted - do you realise that such relevant only so far as...realising such - you should also realise that you have every right to go after what you want (respectfully of course)... that you don't have to be treated bad by women (you can call them on their bad behaviour), and you don't have to give them everything they ask for. You, your emotions, your wants, your desires...are just as important as their emotions, wants, and desires...but it's up to you to go after them (no one else can truly go after them for you)

- it's also up to your to develop yourself (there's results if you do, and results if you don't...either way, you actually choose your lot in life), including character traits such as : genuineness, self honesty, self-assurance, willpower, energy...and traits such as loyalty, humour, optimism etc.

All these things will improve your life. They will as an added benefit, improve your attractiveness to women...but the primary purpose is the improvement of who you are, for yourself.

Of course, regarding my previous statement of calling women on their bad behaviour - one of the issues you currently have is that your 'behaviour' (in a forum, your written word) is so 'bad' that many people will instinctively attack you for behaviour they find quite repulsive. So in this instant...calling them on their occassional bad behaviour in those circumstances, while you are constantly engaging in it...is mostly pointless.

Don't forget that many of the people attacking you...tried almost endlessly to help you first.

That should tell you something about their character - that they tried to help for so long.

I can't tell you the amount of times I have heard this story, over and over again, just different guys telling it.

There comes a time in live when "women" get over the bad boys, realise their own self worth and set out to find exactly what "they" want, with 'care' factor.

But, until they do, guys like Jack bring them down, their in-securities that once were already there to a degre, highten 10 fold and all they want, is to be loved and for what ever reason they "believe" that the Jack's love them, they have to, they keep going back to them, everytime they question whether or not the "Jack's" love them...

But, let a guy tell a woman over and over he loves her and, it's game set and match...

The difference is with maturity. I can guarantee you that.

Find a woman older than you, who has had enough of the bullshit and has called it, worked it all out.. Is happy with who she is, and quess what, wants exactly what you want.

What makes me whack is that I honor the woman that I am with by giving her what she wants and needs if it is within my power to do so. I expect her to do me the same honor, and if she is not willing then we will not be together for long. Me and my mate decide the rules of our relationship, the collective has not been consulted and the collectives opinion is not relevant to me unless we should somehow infringe upon other peoples rights. One of the things that drives Firefly mad is that I dont accept the feminists definition of consent, so far as I am concerned being physically free to leave but choosing to not leave is consent to what ever my mate stays for.



A perfect example of what I dispise, who the **** is FS to decide if a certain woman meets her standards of proper womanhood well enough to be allowed to mate?? FS should stay in her lane, try to run run her her life as best she can and let others run theirs. Those people who are holding out for the perfect human and/or are encouraging others to do so are greatly confused about where they are.They are not in Heaven yet, perhaps that comes later, but I would not count on it.

You make me laugh. You enter a thread where the OP asks if you bothered to read his previous posts and that of others to which you state, " that you couldn't be bothered reading 21 posts".. And you are now God and know it all?

Secondly, I think you mean't "his standards".

Thirdly, Michael and I can relate to a large degree, with his profession, age and the difficulties of finding someone who would go out with you as in a relationship and all you found were the "wrong" types, due to the career path "we" chose. Have you heard him diss me yet? If you bothered to read what has been written you would have noted that Hawkeye, you just seem to love to follow firefly and try to be "right" so that she seems "sooooo wrong".. It's what this is all about you don't give a **** about Michael and his journey through life your advise is "be like me". Being you.

So if my opinion is based on commonality and in reading Michael's replies to others, and his explanation that his past women wanted "the bad boy" and that they "were younger than him". And, that we as women ( you are a male), know for a fact that with age, we change the way we think, then that's my opinion. What the **** would you know as a male about that stuff? Jack ****.

You are not a woman so keep your stupid comments to yourself, you are not judge and jury here you are just a person with his own opinion based on his own thoughts of achievements with, women....

As you are addressing me as well, what makes you think I believe in fairy tales ?That you have to hold out for the right one? Read the thread HE, (appropriate initials), clearly I made it clear that sometimes, people settle for something or someone when they shouldn't have. If they had asked themselves to start with if there were red flags, there was, they chose to ignore them.

I can see this is going to be men against women... What a wank to turn it into such a thing when the guy may actually take some things said by all and use them.

(Edit) Excepting one male who is doing a magical job in his posts.

You're not God Hawkeye and you are not always right.. I proved you wrong once, perhaps that's your problem now... But, it's your problem not mine.

vikorr

I was really hoping you'd have more to say about what you briefly touched on, and what I elaborated on. How women say they want respect and when they get it, it turns them off. I mean, I really think this is a universal truth of womankind.

I just don't understand why dating has to be game playing. Why can't it just be "I like you", "Oh really, cause I like you too."

When men say something like "I'm going out tonight" that's exactly what it means, "I'm going out tonight". When women say things they often don't even mean what they're saying, what they're saying means 50 other things.

I don't think I should have to create a manual or a blueprint for a woman. I think I should just be able to respect her and be honest with her and get honesty and respect in return.

And as much as people want to call me a misogynist, I don't think I fit that mold completely. I have problems with women, but there are also women I greatly admire. Someone white who's a racist isn't going to find any black people to have any redeemable qualities. I do however like to wear that misogyny badge if women start calling me that because I know it irritates them the more I do it. I DO have a right to call women on their bad behavior! Thank you.

vikorr, I'm going to be deadly serious for a moment here. Even if what you say about developing myself is true, I feel like it's too late. I'm so old now, and more importantly there are so many things that are damaged or in ruins. I feel like I can't overcome these things. It doesn't mean I don't want to overcome them. I'm just very, very tired vikorr. I've been very depressed today. Sometimes I think about death and it actually makes me happy. Like I feel relieved thinking about it.

And I don't know how to stop thinking about Mary. I think about her everyday. I can't put into words how damaging of a force she was in my life, yet how positive of force she was too. She told me all these things weren't true about women, but then turned around and did those very things. Even if in some fairy tale world I did get married to someone else, someone I really loved, she still wouldn't be Mary. There's only one Mary. I'll never meet another one. I'll never feel like that again.

I feel like that was my last chance. And there were things that were working against it from the start. I was living with her right away for one thing, that was too much too fast. It wasn't fair. I know life's not fair, but it really sucks that circumstances were what they were because I always wonder "If we hadn't lived together right away, what if..." If we hadn't yada, yada what if". And there's no way to go back. I know there isn't but you can't help kicking yourself anyway. If that was my last chance it was a very cruel thing for fate to taunt me with.

I want to believe some of the things you've said vikorr, I'm just very deeply sad. So much that it hurts my body. It's hard to try to pick yourself up when you can't stop the hurt.

I agree with what you are saying. It was one reason why I suggested to MichaelJ that he try dating women closer to his age--something that he rejected.

There is generally a big difference in maturity between a woman in her early 20's and one in her early 30's--that ten years brings much greater awareness of who you are, and what you want, and what you are looking for in a relationship and in another person.

MichaelJ's big error is trying to characterize all women as a group, and in trying to understand "women"--all women--on the basis of the two he's been involved with. And the conclusions he's drawing are very off the mark. Women aren't some alien species--we have the same sort of emotions and insecurities and trust issues and basic needs as men do--life and successful relationships aren't any easier for us than for men, and we can also get hurt and betrayed, although MichaelJ fails to see that.

What he should do is learn to recognize the traits he doesn't like in a person and not ignore them. In his first relationship, there were red flags, things that others saw in his fiancee, and things he didn't like, but they might not have made him take a hard enough look at the relationship until he found her cheating on him. In his second relationship he also saw things that should have given him pause, like her saying she always wanted to be the one controlling a relationship. Love can be accepting, and forgiving, but it shouldn't be blind, particularly if one is seriously contemplating marriage to that person. If you're blind, you open yourself to being whacked rather hard by something that seems unexpected, but something you should have anticipated if you really were paying attention to what the other person was like.

MichaelJ needs to stop being so blinded by love that he ignores what's wrong with the relationship, or what's wrong with the other person, until they walk out on him. It's not just that these women were deceitful, or callous, or unfeeling, it's also that he didn't catch on soon enough, or chose not to see what was going on, because he "loved" them. If he wants honesty, and fidelity, and dependability and trustworthiness in a partner, he's got to look for those traits in someone, and not disregard the warning signs of negative traits he doesn't want or like. He's got to become a better judge of people.

And he's got to learn that when a relationship is over, it's over--and nursing the pain just prolongs the agony. And, when it doesn't end by mutual agreement, one person is definitely going to feel hurt. There isn't any easy way to soften that blow. It's part of life, and part of the price we pay for caring for someone. But, life goes on, new relationships are possible, and, hopefully, we can find more lasting happiness with someone else.

I guess learning all of that comes with maturity too.

I'm only going to say two things about this post but I think they're important firefly. And I'd honestly welcome feedback on them.

1) I'm not attracted to older women (except for my freshman year psychology teacher, she was a GODDESS among women). That doesn't mean I'm looking for a 21 year old, but think about some of the other things you've told me about my exes. You said women have a RIGHT to choose who they want to be with. I can't FORCE myself to be attracted to someone I'm not. That's alot of why I say I feel I have no choices. I'm not going to settle for someone I don't actually like, no matter how better it looks on paper. And you have to remember I've had only two girlfriends, they both left me around age 24. For me to date someone who was let's say 34, that would be a quantum leap. Where's all that stuff that should come in between? I never got to date other people when I was in my twenties. If I'm "emotionally immature", maybe that's why. I missed out. I honestly think a 34 year old woman wouldn't even have fun with me. I like doing the same stuff I did when I was in my twenties.

2) Even if I notice things wrong I could see where I wouldn't leave. Because I'd be leaving to go off into nothing. Like with Mary, let's say I decided there were red flags. Well the last relationship was six years prior to that, so in my mind I'd be thinking that if I left her that's what would be waiting for me, and I'd have every reason to be thinking that. Plus even if there are red flags, if I'm still attracted to that person I'd have to fight against that attraction also. Even if I thought they were gona leave, I'd always think "But what if they don't?" Because how can you ever really know for sure until they do I guess?

I honestly do think of women as an alien species, it's funny you used that term. As far as them having the same basic needs, I agree with that. But look at sex for example. They can have it whenever they want (I'm thinking of two people in a relationship). Men have those needs too, but they don't have a fail-safe that's always ready every time they are. Women just seem so, so different, so incredible. I mean have you ever just watched a woman get dressed and put on her makeup and stuff? It's mesmerizing. I'd hate to know what I look like when I'm getting ready ...not pretty. I know women have problems too, but they're beautiful. So even when they have those problems they're beautiful people having problems. Men aren't beautiful. Men are just men; they're like SUV's. Women are sports cars. I think that analogy might be from Seinfeld actually...

Ok maybe that was three things...

Addendum to #1) The older I date, the less likely we'd have a child. Because as you pointed out "women can't procreate forever".

I want to be a dad.

you could always adopt, i mean if you leave it to nature there's a50/50 chance you'll give birth to a monster (aka a female )

MichaelJ, someone your own age is not "an older woman".

You'll never know unless you start exposing yourself to people, and not just women, closer to your own age. You are letting your general social anxieties, and your lack of self confidence and self esteem govern your thinking. Do you plan on never developing yourself beyond where you were in your 20's? If you're not "grown up" enough for a 32 year old woman, start growing up. That 24 year old you think will be more forgiving of your lack of maturity will out grow you if you don't do that.
In general, it sounds like you have to stop looking mainly at superficial externals about a person--age, physical beauty, etc. and start looking for personal qualities and character traits, and values, that you find attractive in someone. That doesn't mean you force yourself to be with people you find unappealing, but it means you might have to broaden your sense of what is attractive, what's important in a partner in a relationship.

There's a difference between looking for someone who might be great to date, or have a fling with, and someone you want to spend the rest of your life with. If your goal is marriage, you have to start looking for the kind of person who has those personality and character qualities you want in a partner--a very long term partner--and not just consider the women who might more immediately attract your attention. You may find that the older, or less physically beautiful, woman may be able to light your fire, and kindle love or sexual passion in you, in surprising ways. Stop restricting your options--you're not helpless over those--in order to increase the range of potential partners you might want to get to know better. Start looking for women who have the personal qualities you like, the kind of people you could actually trust.

Then you'd be making a choice to stay with someone you didn't trust, or who might be treating you badly. And you'll be the one who winds up being dumped, or dumped on, simply by being the more passive one. You also should think about why you'd find someone attractive for a relationship if she doesn't treat you well, or she has character traits you don't like.

Your views of women cycle between two extremes--either you over-idealize them, and romanticize them, or you think they are evil and can't stand them--and neither is a healthy or mature view. Women are not an alien species and they are are all individuals and you have to look at them as individuals--just as you would regard other men as being individuals. Start looking at women as just being other people--without the crazy mystique you're constructing about them--and appreciate their individuality, and seek out those whose company you enjoy, whose personality you like, whose character and values you admire, etc. If you want a relationship built on a friendship, look for the qualities that are important in a good friend, and see what develops.

If you are honest with yourself, you'll realize that Mary did not have the values and character traits you admire and want in a person to have a relationship with--if she hadn't been so physically attractive, you wouldn't have wanted to be with her. It's great that you felt passion with her, but you were also ignoring a lot about her that should have told you that the relationship wasn't gonna work. Stop obsessing about her, think about developing yourself, dealing with your anxieties, confronting the rigidity in your own thinking, making your life generally more satisfying, and moving beyond your own crippling feeling of hopelessness.

Yes, a major error in Michael's view of life is that he treats every woman as little more than a member of a category, and from that follows the problem of overlooking and underappreciating each female person's unique qualities. It's a specific instance of the general cognitive-emotional problem of "hardening of the categories."

In regard to Mary,

"if she hadn't been so physically attractive, you wouldn't have wanted to be with her."

This is 100% FALSE. And insulting...

Maybe we weren't perfect for each other, but looks wasn't at all why I fell for her. She was beautiful, but I've been with prettier women (my fiance for one was much more physically attractive). I wanted to be with her because of our close friendship. It never would've happened without that.

And

"You may find that the older, or less physically beautiful, woman may be able to light your fire."

I know what you're trying to say, and physical beauty isn't (by far) the only thing I'm looking for. But this statement translates to me as "Marry an old ugly bag, because she won't run off on you."

That doesn't give me any hope and in fact is quite depressing..

I have to be physically attracted to who I'm with. I have to be able to to have fun with her. I have to have respect for her. I have to be able to talk to her and have her understand where I'm coming from, and more importantly feel comfortable sharing things. She HAS to be intelligent. It has to be the WHOLE package. It has to feel like "Score!, I found a winner and I'm happy!" Otherwise it's settling. Because I've felt that before. Maybe Mary wasn't perfect for me, but she met all those requirements and exceeded them.

Otherwise I'd never really love that person I was with. I'd be faking it, and that wouldn't be fair to her...

Also, "Marry an old ugly bag, because she won't run off on you." doesn't do a whole lot in motivating me to better myself in ways like exercising and cutting down on my drinking. If I'm just settling for someone who won't run off, then there's no motivation whatsoever for me to stay on my toes for her. I can just let myself go to crap...