Can life have meaning if your dreams are unattainable?

Hi Hawkeye - I don't disagree. I'm not at all into that, but I've learnt over many years that there are many people I like that are into some rather, ah, interesting stuff...and yet they are likeable socially.

There is also, my belief about self responsibility. A persons choice is something they live by.

On a personal level I find it - probably has a decent negative side to it...but as an overall reflection of their life I'm not sure that there is any better one for the people involved...so I don't bother judging it as 'good or bad', just that it is, and it's a personal choice.

As for the consent issue - that would be a sticking point in a lot of ways. I think we had this conversation in a different thread. I can understand firefly's, yours, and the legal issues. I don't know that legally speaking, definitions can be changed without adversley affecting one way or another what is already a difficult area of law.



Hi Michael - firstly, thanks for being much more honest the last few pages. A bit of a way to go still but overall much better.

If I may suggest, in relation to your ability to cope. It would be very good to talk to a psychologist (who specialises in depression) about coping mechanisms. Failing that, a counsellor, and in either case - talk to your friends about your coping mechanisms, as well as your ability to cope.

The reason for this is that depressed or suicidal people don't committ suicide because they are depressed or suicidal - they committ it because their coping mechanisms become overloaded and then virtually fail...they no longer see a way to cope.

In relation to what I said that you hoped I would go more into. That's a theoretical area that - as far as I know - has little to no actual scientific study...but one that does make sense where other areas fail to explain such.

It's point isn't to excuse success, failure or otherwise - but as a way of understanding men/women in a way that results in you :
- accepting that certain types of attributes are attractive to the opposite sex (and helping you understand why)
- which hopefully then results in you not butting your head against the wall so hard for pointless reasons

The thing is women DO want to be treated like a princess (in public), and be given things...but only in a particular way / under certain conditions (it's this second part that they, especially when young, don't usually grasp). Exploring those 'conditions' using genetic theory explains a lot of those conditions.

In terms of being able to find the motivation to get up...I'm very far from knowledgable in this are. The only advice I can offer something like :
- write a list for 3-5 small things that you are going to do / practice during the day.

Make those things something you don't normally do (and don't have a great deal of skill in) but that you are likely to succeed at.(if you find you have to many things on the list, simply reduce the number of things to do)

- put that list up in a very prominent place where you can see it. If others can see it, even better (as it will create more committment on your part, and others may even help you), but if not, then somewhere you will always see it
- make it the first thing you read in the morning, and the last thing you read before you go to bed
- do those things during the day
- review how you could improve what you did

Now...if you are like me - you will often forget the list, but as you read it each morning & night you will want to try to achieve it...

...the biggest thing is persistence

..and eventually you do.

That list will change as you do it...because some things you will become good at, while other things will drop off because you realise they are unimportant.

The point of this whole exercise is to start you on the path to learning - to gaining control over your life. It doesn't have to start with a WHAM (which may be almost impossible, short of some epiphany)...what it does do is teach you how to learn new skills / habits (which I personally think around 96% of our life is built on).

I'm sure there's other ways - but that's quite close to what I do in my own life...and I've been known to be hardheaded about doing things the hard way (which I find more rewarding - teaching me more, and making success more meaningful)

In terms of ALL the changes you need to make. Don't bother focusing on that. Focus on a few small changes at a time. It's a bit like jogging - when you first start, it's hard work, you find yourself exhausted at the end of the run, and motivating yourself to do it the next time is difficult....but the more you do it, the more you enjoy it...and as you do it more and more, rather than finding yourself exhausted at the end of it, you start to find yourself more and more energised...

...exercising your ability to learn is no different, and the energy you start feeling as you do it more and more, is the energy that comes from knowing that you CAN control your life, and you CAN achieve, and you CAN constantly improve.

As I said a while back - I will improve and grow until the day I die (it's probably impossible to stop finding more refinements to any skill you possess). This is within anyones power to do..it's like jogging...start doing, keeping doing, and eventually it becomes a reward in itself.

You see beauty in youth.. The way they get dressed, put on their make-up, it's mesmorizing... Do you really think a 34 year old is an ugly old bag? Do you think Elle McPherson is ugly?

Do you know as firefly stated, a woman matures every 10 years. She changes. Her sexual appetite changes too. Her understanding, respect, she wants fun, she wants to act like a 20 year old, but she has some wisdom and an aura about her, as she's grown.

How do you know unless you try? Some of my friends are 25 - 30.. They can not understand for the life of them, why I don't look like their Mother, dress like her, sit there are draw art like them.. Why I still can knock down a drink or 3 with them, in a night club, or have them over for dinner and laugh and talk the same language or dress my age, yet trendy and leave my hair long.. It's because I don't feel my age, don't act my age, but I can tell you, as far as growth, wisdom, I am definately my age. You would be mesmorised by a woman that was in control of her own life, yet could and would make your life magical because she wants to equally make you feel like a man, and a boy at the same time.




Are you frightened that an older woman would find you to be to immature? What if all that you are, all that you share, she "gets" ? What if her past man was a boring old fart? And, maturity gives more intelligence...

It doesn't have to feel like "Score!, I found a winner and I'm happy " It has to feel like she is beautiful, inside and out, how lucky am I ...

You're 33 years old & consider a woman who's 34, or around your own age, an "old bag"?
Women in their early 30s are considered to be at their physical peak.
(I'm sorry, but yours has been & gone. )
I doubt any self respecting woman around that age (considerably younger, even!) would find your immature & silly rantings about women (plural) remotely attractive.
You'd be way out of your depth!
How old are you really?

Actually, I'd say there are different peak periods for women, depending on what 'peak' you are measuring. Of course a similar thing can be said for men.

As a generalisation peak ages vary for men/womens : physical beauty, reproductive abilities, creative intelligence, wisdom, sexual freedom, energy levels, spirituality etc.

Most just mention physical beauty / reproductive / sexual / widsom peaks - but there are plenty of others.

Of course.
My comment was addressed more to MJ's posted comments, concerns & rants here rather than to anything more complicated.
Specifically about why old bags around his own age would be unsuitable partners for him.

Hahaha!

Elle McPherson is STILL gorgeous, OK. You got me there. But how many Elle McPherson's are out there...?

What I was trying to say is that even though there are multiple components to what I want in a woman, none of them are more important than the others. I couldn't be with an ugly woman who was really smart and interesting, but I also couldn't be with a gorgeous woman who was a dullard and a racist or something.

I've had the whole package. I know what that's like, anything less is unacceptable.

There was a woman who is 29 (much closer to my age) who I've gotten to know in the past year. I (for a time, which has now passed) was EXTREMELY attracted to her. I found her physically attractive, but she was NO where near as good looking as Mary or my fiance. But I liked her hair, and I liked her eyes, and I liked her smile. And we had SO, so much in common, everything from music to politics, ect. I tried really hard to throw out that vibe of "Hey, wink wink" at her. It just got me nowhere. Oh yeah AND she was single and lamenting that fact, AND I'd go out of my way to do fun things with her. But still nothing, ...very frustrating.

So I wasn't really that physically attracted to her, but because I liked some things about her physicality and because she was so cool, it didn't matter. I thought she was hot. I don't anymore though because I tried so hard to do cool things for her and she didn't appreciate them...

I don't think 34 year olds are old bags, but I'm not attracted to them. What I was saying is that I don't have to marry a 21 year old. But what about 22-32 year olds??? I just don't want to be with someone older than me.

Generally speaking men are attracted to women younger than them and women are attracted to men older than them. It has a lot to do with evolution, and procreation. And keep in mind my dad was 19 years older than my mom, and I idolized him.

Firefly says this:

"In general, it sounds like you have to stop looking mainly at superficial externals about a person--age, physical beauty, etc.

There's a difference between looking for someone who might be great to date, or have a fling with, and someone you want to spend the rest of your life with. If your goal is marriage, you have to start looking for the kind of person who has those personality and character qualities you want in a partner--a very long term partner--and not just consider the women who might more immediately attract your attention."

My question is this: Why is it that (in general) most physically attractive women aren't the kind of women that you can count on for a long term relationship?

I have an answer to this, but I'll probably be attacked for it. I think it's because (as I've said many times) humans do what they can get away with. Because women are viewed as more beautiful in society, the more beautiful they are, the more they can get away with. It's really not the same way with men. That's why for instance (and I'm NOT saying this about anyone at my station) most female television anchors/reporters are very good looking. It's because that brings in viewers! Unfortunately as I've learned, most of those women also have **** for personalities.

I honestly think I'd have much different views of women if so, SO many of the physically beautiful ones I'd met hadn't been such nasty, self centered, horrible excuses for human beings. Because when you think about it, this reflects very badly on society as a whole. It tells me that maybe everybody's really like this deep down. It's just that those women can get away with it because they're beautiful. Maybe physically unattractive women are only nicer because they have to be. Maybe they'd be just as horrible if they could get away with it too...

A big reason why mating and dating relationships is tied into "the meaning of life" in my view is because it reflects a shadow of how people treat each other. That's a big part of why life has me down... I want to believe people aren't just animals, I really do. but I'm a very logical thinking person. I add up facts and draw a conclusion based on what I observe....

vikorr I have a dinner date tonight and have to run. I want to respond to this post, and have more to ask you about it later...

I'm 12 years old msolga, you caught me...

Everything I've shared about myself has been lies, you caught me...

I feel like I don't need to respond to you anymore, and am not quite sure why you continue to read this thread...

Quite seriously - I don't think you've even come close to having the whole package.

You've named any number of flaws in your last that would suggest a very flawed 'whole package'.

It's to see how far you'll push things to justify yourself, Michael.
It's kinda fascinating, in a very weird sort of way.

Yes, I recognised where you were aiming your comments

My comments were mostly for Michaels benefit.

And if you don't mind my saying - that is wierd, lol.

Not at all.
I have rarely seen a poster go to such lengths to justify an unjustifiable position, vikorr. (with one or two notable exceptions on A2K )
And to so thoroughly enjoy talking about himself, endlessly.
And this is just his first thread here!
It is weirdly fascinating to see such a degree of committed self-absorption, you have to admit.

That's not what I said--at all. I didn't say anything about a woman who wouldn't run off. I didn't say anything about "settling for someone". Do you see how you significantly distort what you read and give it a negative slant? That's very serious, MichaelJ, in terms of the problems you have accurately perceiving reality. You've distorted a great deal of what's been said to you in this thread. It's important for you to know that you might, and often do, distort reality--that your perceptions, and conclusions, and interpretations, might not be accurate.

And. honestly, I think you also distorted what you thought was going on between you and Mary--you saw what you wanted to see, and made it fit your fantasy of what you wanted to be going on between the two of you, and you chose to disregard all the evidence to the contrary. And that's why I'm not inclined to trust your version of events about the relationship and why it broke up. Truthfully, your interpretation of her behavior in the relationship doesn't make a lot of sense, and it doesn't ring true. She had no logical motivation to manipulate or deceive you--I think you were mainly deceived by your own mis-perceptions and misinterpretations of what was going on between the two of you and you assumed a passionate romance was mutual when it wasn't. And I think that's something you should give a lot of thought to. I don't want to argue with you about that--it's something I just think you should think about. You do not always perceive and interpret reality accurately.

Your complaints about both women you were involved with had to do with characteristics of their personality and character and values--which is why you've got to learn to be a better judge of people and take such characteristics into account in looking for a partner. If you don't like the types of women you get involved with, you've got to learn to make better choices.

And you've got to be more honest with yourself. If you felt Mary was a slut, because of her past sexual behaviors, as you've clearly indicated, you had no basic respect for the woman, and you ought to think about that too.

Look, if you don't care enough about yourself to stop drinking, and start exercising, don't start blaming women for that. You wouldn't be attracted to a woman who was drinking excessively and neglecting her appearance, so what makes you think you can even interest a woman if you have those same unattractive characteristics? And the drinking is making your depression worse--alcohol is a depressant.

Go to an AA meeting--you have nothing to lose. You might even find it is possible to meet women there.

Honestly, MichaelJ, you do sound too immature for a woman your own age. And you're also too immature for a 24 year old woman as well. No joke, you sound more like a 15 year old, in terms of most of your comments. And that's not meant as an insult, that's how you sound.

You've got a lot of personal problems you've got to begin working on--preferably with professional help. A future decent marital relationship with a woman is possible for you, but you've got to get yourself straightened out first. You're hampered by too many anxieties, and hang-ups, and defensive maneuvers, and too much distorted thinking, to make it a realistic possibility in the immediate future, and you are no way ready to be a father. Raising a child is considerably more complicated than caring for your dog--and you haven't finished raising yourself yet. You've got a lot of growing up to do.

...well, I guess it's somewhat interesting to see anyone having built such a large system of habitually deceiptful mechanisms all designed to support *whatever it is that it supports*

It's interesting to a degree to see how it functions, and it's sheer tenacity is both breath taking & repulsive at the same time - and so 'interest' only carries my interest so far.

Quite honestly, if the sheer level of self deceptions had continued for the last few pages, I wouldn't have bothered posting in reply to Michael again - there'd be no point if someone chose to continually seek something other than understanding...it is his choice to make.

And I will always disagree with the counsellor that said 'you can't be helped' ...he can be, but only if he wants to be.

He wants to start when he genuinely seeks to understand, and seeks to be honest with himself, and seeks to take responsibility for who he is - all 3 are one and the same, or perhaps more accurately, interwoven...if you seek to understand you must be honest, if you are honest you must take responsibility for who you are....if you take responsibility for who you are, you must be honest with yourself, and if you want to be honest with yourself you must seek to understand yourself.

Because everyone wants one of them. Most of the good looking women have been ruined from birth by being spoiled, so there are lots of Alpha males competing for a small stable of the best women, and frankly you dont appear to be a alpha male at this point in your life. You might be able to bag a good looking bitch, but as for the best of the women you dont have a chance in hell. Get better (or get a lot of money), this you can change.

Michael


Well there you go, that's "physical" attraction Maybe not as tall but definately alot of attractive women in this World but there are two things there.

1) Elle is having one heck of a bad life. She was so in love just like what you are after, spent 10 or so years with the guy. Before that she went for a play boy, well really after that as well... See how even someone beautiful gets used and spat out? She's still not married..

2) I honestly would have thought by 33 you would be looking deeper than physcial although you are "hinting" you are, are you ?



Michael you want what any single person that is getting older in life want, a relationship that's real.. Your visions of what she looks like and the boxes you are ticking as to what she has to be like may be your downfall. By saying she can't be this, can't be that, must be this, must be that, you may actually miss out completely unless you actually boil it down to a few things only.

Has Morals, the right core values, is interesting and fun and can stand on her own two feet. Don't you think once two dwell together with those attributes everything about each other is beautiful?

Oh Hawkeye I can only say I am glad you said 'MOST' but then you are just talking "princesses" nothing to do with looks and Michael wouldn't really want a princess, they take everything and then leave you. Wait Michael, wasn't Mary pretty as well?

See a picture here

So, firstly I'm drunk. Lucid, but drunk.

**** going to AA...

I've been thinking about this whole able 2 know thread thing a lot tonight. I think it's actually been better than that previous stint with a therapist. Or maybe it just feels that way because I don't have anybody to talk to about this stuff and it's been built up for quite awhile. It's like I've been constipated, and I finally got to drop a poop (can't wait for somebody to use that quote to compare what I've said to poop).

Also it's gotten me writing a bit again. That's something I don't do much anymore. I probably won't ever post anywhere else on this site except this thread, I have no need to. This thread has been about my life...

But I really don't give a **** if anyone reading this thinks I talk about myself too much or not. It feels really good to get this stuff out, just to organize it and try to form it all into words for my own selfish benefit and self exploration. This thread is about me trying to help myself. If someone else wants to read it or comment on it (even if they act like a stupid bitch), that's their choice.

If there's a way to delete my account I'll probably eventually do that if this interferes with my time too much (If I can't delete it, so be it. Hopefully someone in a similar situation will read it and know they aren't alone. In that case I'd just quit posting). It is somewhat frustrating trying to respond to multiple people because I want to make sure I actually think about what I'm trying to say, AND because this about my life I sometimes have charged reactions to what some people are saying about ME, AND I do have other commitments in my life. That's why I'm not big into inter-webbing outside of work. No longer have a facebook, never a twitter, myspace, or whatever else...


msolga,

"It's kinda fascinating, in a very weird sort of way. "

I'm glad I fascinate you.

Still don't give a **** what you have to say...


hawkeye,

"Because everyone wants one of them. Most of the good looking women have been ruined from birth by being spoiled ..."

It's become clear to me your thinking is an example of what's wrong with society. I don't like women either but look at what your saying, there's truth in what your saying! Women lust after money. That's part of what proves humanity is (in whole, including men) a bad thing. Humanity is fucked. Yet you seem to revel in these sick rules like they're acceptable instead of being repulsed by them. I don't like that hawkeye. I strongly agree that what you're saying is accurate, but it's not something that should be embraced. It should be exposed for how ugly it is. "Most of the good looking women have been ruined from birth by being spoiled", is that something that makes you pleased? "Get better (or get a lot of money)", is that something that makes you pleased?

And I'm not looking for "the best of the women" like they're a ******* horse to be bred for show or something. I know I'm sexist, but that sounds fucked up hawkeye.

I'm certainly no Alpha male. It shouldn't be a goddamn contest in that way anyway. That's part of what makes life meaningless. Humans are no more special than animals in that regard. I want the best woman for me personally. The one that best fits the things I've mentioned before that I look for, and especially the one who I feel the strongest friendship with. And I'm well aware that that's a ******* fairy tale because women only want the most well gamed Alpha male with the most money.


vikorr,

First of all, when do you think men peak in "creative intelligence"? If that's something I've passed I suppose it would give me further reason not to find meaning in my own life. There used to be all these things I wanted to do. Now it seems like either life has beaten me down so much that I don't care to be creative, or I've lost whatever creativity I once had. This has bothered me for awhile. Sometimes I fear I won't ever get my creativity back.

Second, "You've named any number of flaws in your last that would suggest a very flawed 'whole package'."

I know she wasn't perfect vikorr. I'm not stupid. But she was as close as I've encountered to whatever that 'perfect' is for me personally. Even if she wasn't the whole package, she made me happier than any other woman has. Therefore, when I gauge my happiness with other women, I gauge by my experience with her. Before it had been my finance.

"It's interesting to a degree to see how it functions, and it's sheer tenacity is both breath taking & repulsive at the same time..."

Hawkeye seems to agree with things I've been pointing out that support my views. Are you trying to tell me I'm so ******* crazy that it's a thing of beauty? I think that's really a stretch. Obviously there are other people out there who recognize these things I'm talking about in society. It's just that in hawkeye's case he's reacting to them in the wrong way.

"if you seek to understand you must be honest, if you are honest you must take responsibility for who you are....if you take responsibility for who you are, you must be honest with yourself, and if you want to be honest with yourself you must seek to understand yourself."

I am seeking to understand myself. I'm working on this vikorr, in MY own way. It's not the same way you would approach it. I think we are looking at the same thing from two different angles. That doesn't mean one is right and the other is wrong, it's just a different approach. I know I need to find out more about myself. I'm also interested in 'big' questions. I mean, aren't you? Don't you ever think endlessly about that stuff sometimes? You're smart. When I seek knowledge of myself, I try to also better understand my lot in life, the world around me, questions about life, death, what makes a person uniquely their own, all that ****.

" It's point isn't to excuse success, failure or otherwise - but as a way of understanding men/women in a way that results in you :
- accepting that certain types of attributes are attractive to the opposite sex (and helping you understand why)
- which hopefully then results in you not butting your head against the wall so hard for pointless reasons "

But it's true vikorr. You agree with me. Women say they want one thing and then when they get that thing, they get turned off. THAT is warped thinking. And this all happens subconsciously and is apparent as behavior displayed in (probably) most or all women. It's very nature is designed to frustrate, confused, and (some including me) would say torture those it encounters. And at the bottom of it all women truly WANT to be manipulated by men in order to be dominated by them. But they ALSO don't want to be aware any of this is happening. And the responsibility for either intuitively knowing all this or learning it from PAINFUL trial and error falls squarely on only one of the two partners in a male/female relationship.

Do you understand how complex that is???? You need a diagram on a blackboard to map the ******* thing out! In fact somebody should do that, shoot a video of it, burn it to DVD, mass produce it, and distribute it to every man born in all of ******* creation!

That would better mankind!

"The reason for this is that depressed or suicidal people don't commit suicide because they are depressed or suicidal - they commit it because their coping mechanisms become overloaded and then virtually fail...they no longer see a way to cope."

I read this the same as "People will kill themselves to end pain." Mental pain and emotional pain can be just as intense as physical pain, maybe more so.

I really, REALLY like what you said about making a list. I will try this. I will likely try it with nonsensical things at first like practicing to think about pink elephants for a portion of the day. Just to try it out you know, see if I can remember to do it.

I like that. Thank you for that vikorr.

"In terms of ALL the changes you need to make. Don't bother focusing on that. Focus on a few small changes at a time"

It's not really about changes so much as what weighs me down is feelings that things are too frayed in my life to be redeemed. Some things are permanently broken, can't be fixed. Personal things. I know I've talked about a lot of personal things here, but there are some things that I won't discuss that are just deeply personal things I expect from myself. Sometimes I feel like I've fucked up too much in my life and that there's no going back. Like I have to die or else live the rest of my life as a cartoon of my former self.


firefly,

"Mary--you saw what you wanted to see, and made it fit your fantasy of what you wanted to be going on between the two of you, and you chose to disregard all the evidence to the contrary. And that's why I'm not inclined to trust your version of events about the relationship and why it broke up. Truthfully, your interpretation of her behavior in the relationship doesn't make a lot of sense, and it doesn't ring true. She had no logical motivation to manipulate or deceive you"

I've already explained her motivations to deceive me. Condensed recap: To hurt Jack/because she couldn't ever be single/because she was attracted to me on at least enough of a physical level to want to **** me and she knew that wasn't going to happen unless she convinced me it was more than that.

" If you felt Mary was a slut, because of her past sexual behaviors, as you've clearly indicated, you had no basic respect for the woman, and you ought to think about that too. "

Not true firefly. I wasn't happy to hear about her past, but I allowed myself to look past it. And I also didn't get the full story of her past until after we had become involved. By that point do you understand the twofold emotions I was experiencing? Someone who had shown me through her behavior that she was a trusted friend and who had convinced me that she was in love with me through both her words and actions was telling me things I didn't want to be true about her life.

"Your complaints about both women you were involved with had to do with characteristics of their personality and character and values--which is why you've got to learn to be a better judge of people and take such characteristics into account in looking for a partner. If you don't like the types of women you get involved with, you've got to learn to make better choices."

This goes against what you said about how I should appreciate the good things in my past relationships during the times it was good for what they were, being able to focus and see the positive. Because if I never tried those relationships out I would've missed out on those times.

How could I ever possibly be able to accurately predict the crazy twists and turns of women? The complexities of women? That sounds to me like you want me to judge certain people based on small portions of limited information about them. Yet when I "generalize" that women are evil based on a WHOLE lot of readily available information, you call me out on that being inaccurate! You're contradicting yourself firefly!

" you assumed a passionate romance was mutual when it wasn't."

I didn't mean ANYTHING to her, I was just someone she was *******. I know this already!! Are you trying to pour salt in a wound that I'm already pouring salt in too?? I'm a living joke to women, I get it. Even the ones that **** me aren't attracted to me. I'm not an attractive man. If making feel even more like I should be dead was your goal, mission accomplished!

Are you sure msolga? I don't believe so... Be careful of multi-personalities, sometimes they actually want answers and help, other times they pose with the anger inside.

Not saying I am right, but not saying I am wrong either. For now.

I don't believe you Michael... Why ? Because your punctuation is better than mine when I have had a few to drink, comma's, full stops... However...

I agree with you. The replies you are getting are worth listening to, thinking about. And, it is a Forum, all be it, sometimes personal perceptions, full of Widsom and know how.. It's not that you don't have anyone to talk to, although having thought through what's said, you "like" talking to us and why not? We are human, people and you are not trying to impress us with your humor, rather let off steam and thoughts and words that you "can't say" to those women you are trying to get to know right?

The poop bit, means you've definately at least had a drink



My experience with Forums is you join for a reason. You may want an answer on something, or you may just love answering posts to help in what ever profession you are in, or what ever it is you feel you have talent for. As you get to know people, a little bit, there is a need to read their posts/threads. There is a need if you begin to like them to reply on some level.. And, as you feel comfortable, there is this urge to ask questions or tell something silly, to get to know people. I find it strange that as someone stated "your only thread" that you would write that But that's the witch in me.



So it's ok, to feel it's better than a previous stint with therapists. Thanks to those on A2k, I really want to thank you.. No, I don't I am selfish.. I don't give a (blank).. If that is the attitude you take how can you find true love?



Now I am convinced I know who I am talking to... Game over.. Well for me anyway. In any event, "Michael" you need this place. There's a few personalities there. You've admitted in any event that it's helped you, so quit looking for more sympathy of "NO DON'T GO"

To Hawkeye's answer to you. It's not accurate.. I'm an ex-model and I'm telling you it's not accurate.

LMAO, what? I have a sense of humor... Go tell him ....

I like the fact that you are listening to (one) member, all-be-it, it's a male, you are here because of him.. Don't lose sight of what he is telling you... I don't need to interfere or reply there.



You told "us" you couldn't sleep with an ugly woman. She slept with you.. Not to hurt Jack per say alone, think about it. If you were as you claim "an ugly man" she couldn't sleep with you.. And, to get Jack back? You had to be "someone" or else the process is pointless, he had to be jealous. Did you ever think of that? So you have forgotten your good looks as a teenager? And, allowed this woman to make you "think" you are ugly? Think, really think.. If she wanted Jack jealous, you had to "be" good looking, she had to make him jealous. Selling yourself very short ..................................

Also, you called me boring firelfy