Can life have meaning if your dreams are unattainable?

@rosborne979,

Alan Watts I believe...

@Krumple,

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I am skeptical that you have even thought about this or that there is even this so called unobtainable goal. It really couldn't be that hard or you have a problem accepting reality.

Oh I don't know about that - there are plenty of men who yearn for a woman they can never have. Actually - go and read Robert Greene's 'The art of seduction' on that topic - it's about people's flaws in the realm of love, and how they can easily ignore reality and put up with terrible treatment, and yearn for people that just plain treat them with contempt.

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@Procrustes,

Procrustes wrote:

Alan Watts I believe...

yes

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@MichaelJ,

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Actually, my dream IS to be married and be a father. My parents died when I was 12 years old and I've always wanted to have a family of my own more than anything because I didn't have that growing up.

However circumstances in my life have given me every indication that this is in no way shape or form ever going to happen. I didn't just reach this conclusion overnight. I've tried every avenue I could. I really think it's due to things in life that I have no control over, such as my socioeconomic status, age (now) ect....

And I watch all my friends and siblings who are younger than I having families of their own and it fills me with a soul crushing emptiness.

MichaelJ, losing both of your parents at such a young age is a rather overwhelming and devastating loss for a child. Did your parents die at the same time--in an accident of some sort?

I wonder if you have really worked through and come to terms with your grief over that loss or whether it still casts a rather large shadow over your life. Did you address this issue in your previous therapy?

You do sound chronically depressed, and almost as though you are in a constant state of bereavement--that "soul crushing emptiness" you describe. I think this may be a very major issue for you. Have you lost many other people you were close to?

I have no idea of your age or life circumstances, but what makes you so sure that marriage or fatherhood is completely unobtainable for you? Do you have difficulty forming meaningful or long term intimate relationships? Do you have difficulty finding partners you can feel close to or love?

You sound almost achingly lonely and isolated, despite having friends and siblings around you, because you describe yourself as an outsider looking in on other people's family lives with envy. But what enabled your friends and siblings to be able to connect with partners and form those family units? What did they have going for them that you feel you lack? And why do you feel it's something you can't acquire?

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I know that I need to speak to someone professionally, however I don't have insurance so I fear I won't ever find a capable therapist. I've looked into free or sliding scale counseling and actually tried it. I tried several different people all of which couldn't keep up with my philosophical arguments. Including one woman who I saw for almost two years. She eventually told me that I "couldn't be helped". Subjecting myself to that again, I can't even fathom it.

It sounds as if your previous experiences with therapists weren't of much benefit. Did you feel connected to any of those people?
You say they, "couldn't keep up with my philosophical arguments." What kind of philosophical arguments do you put forth? And why were you engaging in "philosophical arguments"--were you putting up barriers in your therapy to protect yourself emotionally or to keep your therapist at an emotional distance?

The therapist who told you that you "couldn't be helped" was wrong. And she was inappropriately discharging her own feelings of anger and frustration onto you.

Anyone who is interested in the process of self discovery can be "helped" through psychotherapy, particularly analytically oriented psychotherapy, and people who really aren't interested in self discovery shouldn't bother with analytically oriented psychotherapy, it's simply the wrong treatment modality. People can make significant changes in their lives only when they realize what, within themselves, keeps them from making changes, or keeps them from moving forward, or keeps them from feeling happiness, or serenity, or satisfaction. And you've already mentioned that your problems do go back to your childhood, suggesting that you would benefit from an analytic approach in your psychotherapy--and that does require a therapist with a fairly substantial amount of training, as well as a particular therapeutic orientation.

If you live anywhere near a post-doctoral psychoanalytic training institute, you might well be able to find low cost therapy that would have a very different focus than what might be available in the average sliding scale outpatient clinic. You would have to be willing to make a long term commitment to your treatment, but the potential benefit to you might be great. This is not a quick fix type of treatment, and it's not just focused on symptom removal. It's much more in depth, and it's more emotionally difficult. But it also might help you to feel that you're in the hands of a capable therapist because analytic candidates tend to be quite capable, they are already in private practice, and their work is supervised by very experienced analysts. If that sort of therapy might be available where you live, I'd advise you to consider it.

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Can life have meaning if your dreams are unattainable?

I think the real question might be why you focus on the unattainable.

If something is truly unattainable, you have to question why you hold onto that "dream" as the only thing which would give your life meaning. If you know that "dream" is beyond the realm of possibility, that it's 100% unattaintable, what keeps you from letting go of it?. Could anything be more self defeating, or frustrating, or designed to make you feel powerless and helpless, and as if life has no meaning, than to only want what you know you absolutely cannot have?

If, on the other hand, that goal--and I suggest you think of it as a goal, and not a "dream"--is obtainable, anywhere within the realm of possibility, than you have to do everything you can do to get to it, to make it materialize. And the process of trying to get to that goal is what will give you a sense of meaning or purpose in your life. The journey is as important as the goal. And the journey is a lifelong process. Our lives are not static, we don't arrive at a goal or "dream" and stop. The fabric of our lives is woven with both love and loss, and we have to find meaning, and strength, in both.

Do you want a "dream" or do you want reality? If loving and being loved is something you want in your life, take it out of the realm of fantasy, make it a goal, consider it attainable, and use every fiber of your being, and every ounce of brain power you have, to find a way to get around every obstacle toward that goal. The meaning of your life will be in your determination to get there. I'll say it again--the journey is as important as the goal--that's where meaning is.

You do sound clearly depressed, perhaps chronically. Depression casts a pall over everything, Do you remember Hamlet--"How weary, stale, flat, and unprofitable seem to me all the uses of this world"--you describe your world as seeming stale and flat.

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I laugh, but it's not the same as it used to be. Food doesn't taste good anymore. I used to like to write, but I can't anymore because I can't concentrate. Every facet if life is affected. So no, I no longer find enjoyment.

I would definitely urge you to seek psychotherapy, but with a clear idea of what you would like to accomplish in your treatment--good therapy is a collaboration, which is why it's important to find the right therapist. But you don't go to a therapist to have "philosophical arguments" with them. Smile

You see a therapist so you can both focus on understanding you, and your emotions, and your anxieties, better, so that, eventually, your emotions, and your memories, serve to enhance rather than taint or diminish your life, and so that they are not a continuing source of pain or anxiety, and so that they do not deplete your pleasure in life, and so that you feel more in control and less helpless..We cannot always control the events that occur in our lives, but we can control how we choose to react to them.

It sounds like you need to finish grieving and move beyond grieving--grieving for people, and grieving for lost "dreams" if they are truly unattainable--and that's a process, sometimes a slow and even painful process, but it is a process a good therapist can definitely help you with.

Hope is a wonderful thing to have. And it's there for the asking. You have a birthday coming up, hope would be a nice gift to give yourself.

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sometimes we just have to struggle on, i myself have come to accept the realization that my dreams of world domination and mass genocide will never come to pass, mores the pity

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Michael, you have some very wise advice here. Firefly is obviously very sophisticated psychologically and his/her counsel is very valid. Vikorr and Rosborne say very useful things. I hope you can gain from them.
I listened to the Youtube interview with Aldous Huxley (whom I met a number of times in L.A. and whose work I am very fond of). His last words in the interview--talking about the ultimate mystical insight to be gained from spiritual practices--regards the realization that the Universe/Ultimate Reality is, regardless of our pain, disappointment, injustices, etc. etc., ultimately "All Right". That is also the final intuitive insight of the philosopher Nietzsche, i.e., that we must be able to come to the conviction: Amor Fati (we must love our destiny, no matter what it may be). I see that as a profound truth far independent of and beyond rationality. It may be what sustains the physicist, Steven Hawkins. But it can only arise in a mind that is generally healthy, that is not handicapped by the chemical liabilities experienced by the clinically depressed or schizophrenic. Interesing that the latter turned out to be Nietzsche's problem, but one that his closest friend was convinced did not render him unhappy.

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@vikorr,

Yes indeed you can't force Marry Poppins to like you, but let's say (just for argument) I dated Ms. Poppins and she told me that not only did she like me, she in fact loved me and "had never felt a connection as strong in her life". Cut to six months later and she runs away to California with Donald Duck because he's better looking, has more money and is a smoother talker (all of this is of course after Ms. Poppins tells me that she "wants to be single for awhile".) This is just an example, but also a scenario that's been played out countless times through history.

Because human beings are drawn to those who have more. That's certainly true of women. They will justify any awful thing they do to the men in their lives if they think they have a chance at trading up.

People who have more get more. It's just a fact of life. Not just in relationships, but in everything.

People want to be around people who are winning. They don't want to be around people when they're having hard times.

I think people are selfish and it makes me deeply sad because I'd like to believe people do actually care about each other. However I think people are more concerned about themselves.

As far as developing yourself and your passions, what would you say to the person shipwrecked on a deserted island who spends the rest of his/her life alone. How the hell does developing their passion/self matter at that point. Are they supposed to talk to the trees and rocks and shares their passions that way????

People need people.

There have been many stories about the detrimental effects that solitary confinement has on prisoners.

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@MichaelJ,

Right, but Sartre argues that Hell is other people. I say that so is Heaven.
On the point of selfishness. You--all of us--are displaying that right now. It's normal (it may not describe the ultimately mature individual, but it does the normal one). I don't want a woman who does not find me sufficiently attractive, do you? And the notion of trading up sounds absurd. I wouldn't want a woman with that plan in mind. By the way, it DID happen to me once, and I see now that it was my gain.

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@firefly,

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Hope is a wonderful thing to have

I couldn't say this any better myself.

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@MichaelJ,

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Because human beings are drawn to those who have more. That's certainly true of women. They will justify any awful thing they do to the men in their lives if they think they have a chance at trading up.

Oh please, that's ridiculous. Women are no more fickle than men in that regard. But, the narcissists who act like that, be they male or female, are obviously poor choices if one is looking for a mature reciprocal partner in a relationship. It's not hard to recognize and avoid such people, if one wants to do that.

You're making excuses for whatever relationship problems you have--you don't make enough money, not good looking enough, women are too fickle and selfish etc.
Take a closer look at your problems with self esteem, and why you are constantly comparing yourself to those you think have more than you do. If you feel like a loser, take the responsibility for making yourself feel that way. If you don't love yourself, why not? If you do like and value yourself, why don't you think there are women who would also like and value you, for those same aspects of personality and character you consider important in yourself? Don't look to other people to validate your self worth, you've got to value yourself first.

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As far as developing yourself and your passions, what would you say to the person shipwrecked on a deserted island who spends the rest of his/her life alone. How the hell does developing their passion/self matter at that point. Are they supposed to talk to the trees and rocks and shares their passions that way????

First, don't be so overly dramatic. You're not shipwrecked on a desert island. Rolling Eyes

You said you have a job you like, you have friends, siblings, recreational pursuits, etc., so you're not leading a solitary existence.

Having passions and things we enjoy and appreciate enhances our personal experience in living. Sharing these things with others is secondary. If we can do that, it's nice, but it's not essential. The important thing about passions is that we allow ourselves to have these feelings. It's the experience of having those feelings that matters because those passions make us feel more fully alive and in touch with ourselves.

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People need people.

People are social animals, and, as such, we are generally happier when involved with others in our lives and our emotional bonds help us to maintain enduring relationships. But, as adults, we are also capable of a fair amount of self sufficiency and independence, as well as the ability to nurture our own needs. Many people go through periods without a partner in their lives. Relationships break up, people divorce, partners die.
The whole world is not coupled off, nor are all of those who are in relationships totally fulfilled, or satisfied, or happy in those relationships. So, let's maintain some perspective.

If you feel you "need people", what are you doing to try to satisfy that need?

Are you really seeking a mature relationship that's based on friendship, companionship, and intimacy, or are you looking for someone to fill some inner void in yourself? If it's the latter, which I suspect it is, based on things you've said, what is that feeling of emptiness, or sense of deprivation and need, about? How long has it been there?

BTW, MichaelJ, Happy Birthday. I hope you do something nice for yourself today.

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@firefly,

I disagree with you, strongly. And I will respond to you in the next couple days when I have time. I have a lot to say in response to two of your posts.

I've been spending the majority of this week trying to forget I'm alive, which is what I'll be doing tonight.

Thank you for the birthday wishes, there are the only ones I've gotten.

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@MichaelJ,

Hi Michael,

Happy birthday.

I agree with a lot of Firefly's post, but not all of it.

MichaelJ wrote:

Because human beings are drawn to those who have more. That's certainly true of women. They will justify any awful thing they do to the men in their lives if they think they have a chance at trading up.

Firefly wrote:

Oh please, that's ridiculous. Women are no more fickle than men in that regard.

The truth is half way in between. NOT ALL WOMEN chase after those who have move, but a largish percentage are attracted to financial success. That percentage is significantly larger than the male percentage who do the same thing.

If you go back to caveman days, women were attracted to men who could provide of them and protect them. In those days, these were the strongest of men (hunters), the quickest of men (hunters), the most cunning of men(those that found a way to win despite drawbacks), and those with high social status & leaders of men (for obvious reasons). Fast forward to today and women still look for men who can provide & protect...but it plays out in different ways : they are variously attracted to muscly men, leaders of men, social status, rich men, men who are expert in their field, entrepreneurs, funny men etc. (have you ever noticed how many of those fields pro footballers etc can tick off? - then have a look at their wives & girlfriends)

Not all are attracted to overly muscly men, and not all find rich men enchanting. No all find the life of partnership a leader to be suited to their nature. Ie. women are attracted to many different things...most of which can be brought down to something that will result in 'provide & protect'

Of course you have it completely wrong that they always leave for a better option - have a look at people in ghettos who still have stable relationships, or refugee wives who don't just 'leave their husband' when they arrive in a new country, with LOTS of better prospects than her unskilled husband....and look at the the ones that marry ugly men, skinny men, nerdy men...etc

SOME WOMEN will leave men for what they view as more successful men, but that is extremely rare in a happy relationship. Not so rare when they've been out looking without telling their partner, and not so rare if the relationship is in it's beginning stages and there are problems.

By the way - you've never said why you can't attain your dream? It's not really a good idea to have people stumbling in the dark, banging their knees against an invisible post that only you can see, but you not telling anyone where the post is or what shape and size it is.

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First, don't be so overly dramatic. You're not shipwrecked on a desert island.

I'm guessing that the visual of what it feels like, and he's not talking about the social scene. There's nothing wrong with painting a picture this way...but...only when used as a description of a feeling...not for reality.

Reality is in terms of social scenes, we can join volunteer organisations for social contact, we can join sporting clubs, card clubs, chess clubs, book clubs etc. Reality is we can go on dating sites. We can meet people at work, etc etc.

As we meet more people we have a greater chance of meeting someone special.

Sometimes, and it's quite rare, but sometimes we are too broken for others to want long term relationships with you...but that is entirely our responsibility to fix (we are truly responsible for ourselves), even if we seek help for it - it's still our responsibility, and in every circumstance where the guy/girl is genetically normal, it's possible.

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@MichaelJ,

MichaelJ wrote:

Thank you for the birthday wishes, there are the only ones I've gotten.

You're not only depressed, you're starting to sound militantly depressed, with a dash of self-pity on top. That's not good. Find a qualified therapist and listen to them.

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@vikorr,

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Of course you have it completely wrong that they always leave for a better option...

You seem to overlook all the middle-aged, or slightly older, men who dump their wives for a younger model, or a prettier model.

Or the men who won't go out with an overweight woman, or a flat chested woman, or a woman that they don't think enhances their status, or the way they look to other men (think trophy wives).

Some of the most beautiful and accomplished and desirable women in the world have been involved with men who cheat on them, or leave them.

Men can be every bit as fickle and capricious and superficial as women.

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Ie. women are attracted to many different things...most of which can be brought down to something that will result in 'provide & protect'

Women these days work, they tend to be well educated, and they tend to view a marriage as much more of a partnership in all ways, including financial. They are not all out there looking for a meal ticket, or someone to "protect" them.

And perfectly ordinary men, and that's most men, who are not financially in the top tier, or built like an Adonis, or strikingly handsome, or overly well endowed in any area, manage to find perfectly nice women who love and marry them.

And many women help a man to become more successful--they'll work to help put him through school, or they'll do a lot of entertaining and socializing to help him in his business, or help him built a network or make connections with others who can help his career or further his ambitions--even if those aren't things they particularly enjoy doing, they will do it for their husband or to benefit the family.

Ask women what they look for in a man and they tend to reel off personality attributes and character traits--intelligence, sense of humor, consideration, warmth, honesty, kindness, etc.

Women become involved with someone, and want to remain with them, because of the way they feel when they're with the other person, they feel better when with them, they feel connected to them, they trust them, they feel excited by them, they feel loved by them, they want to share their lives with them.

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As we meet more people we have a greater chance of meeting someone special.

I agree. But one has to be open to meeting people, and genuinely interested in the people he or she meets.

But what makes a person "special" to another is a very unique thing, and it generally has very little to do with any external factors about that person in terms of wealth, or appearance, or social status.

But none of these generalities, or over-generalizations, really helps someone who has problems forming or maintaining relationships. A person with those sorts of difficulties really has to look inward to gain some insight into their contribution to the problem. Are they only attracted to a certain kind of woman? Do the relationships always follow a certain pattern? If they expect to be rejected, are they creating a self-fulfilling prophecy?

And I'm not sure that any of that is MichaelJ's problem. His self esteem is low. He doesn't feel desirable. He doesn't think there's anyone out there who could really love him.
What he's said is that the only thing that he wants, and that will give his life meaning, is to have a family of his own--and he's 100% certain that can't happen because of his age, his socioeconomic status,etc. . He's boxed himself into a dead-end view of his own life with no options.

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I'm 100% convinced that what I want in life is unattainable. How does one continue life in the face of this?

The most obvious answer to that question is to change what you want.

Someone who is "100% convinced" of something is not looking for advice, or for others to change his mind--he will counter and reject whatever suggestions are offered. Because he feels helpless, he will make others feel stymied when they try to offer him help. He's committed to maintaining a bleak and hopeless outlook.

MichaelJ not only sounds depressed, he sounds like he's flirting with the idea of suicide. He said he found this site by Googling, "life is a joke". Well, I don't think life is a joke, and I think MichaelJ needs to find professional help for himself as soon as possible.

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Can life have meaning if your dreams are unattainable?

MichaelJ is asking the wrong question.
Why is he wondering about "the meaning of life"? Life has no meaning unless we invent meaning, superimpose meaning, give it meaning--life just is.

Why construct an unattainable fantasy/dream and allow that to dominate a life? The one thing that is fully within our control are the fantasies/dreams we construct to motivate us, or tantalize us, or, as in MichaelJ's case, to torment us.
Just as we can create those fantasies, we can alter them, we can let go of them, we can replace them, particularly if their effects are clearly negative.

Depression colors everything. It zaps life of pleasure and interest. It interferes with rational thinking. It causes a person to become self absorbed and to emotionally withdraw from others, and to feel helpless and hopeless. It's also a treatable condition. But, just like alcoholism and drug addictions are treatable conditions, the person seeking relief from depression really has to want help, they have to be willing to try a new way of thinking about things, and willing to learn and try new ways of dealing with anxiety and frustration.

If MichaelJ has spent his previous time in therapy engaging in "philosophical arguments" with his therapists he's been more committed to defeating the therapist than to getting help dealing with his depression. There's a very needy child inside MichaelJ, he's told us that about himself. But, as an adult, MichaelJ isn't helpless, he has powers and capacities to fill needs that he didn't have available to him when he was a child, and therapy can help him find those strengths within himself, and it can also help him reevaluate those needs, but only if he allows himself to be vulnerable rather than combative with the therapist. He can regain control over his depressed emotional state, he does not have to feel at it's mercy.

MichaelJ has already said he strongly disagrees with me. Fine, he doesn't have to agree with me. What I would like him to understand is that I do feel deeply moved by the sense of despair he describes. I also deeply believe that such depression can be treated by therapy, or by a combination of medication and therapy, and that treating it is necessary for him to be able to find pleasure and satisfaction in his life. His situation is not hopeless and he's not helpless--he needs to believe that, and to seek help, again, rather than trying to struggle with this on his own.

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@firefly,

vikorr wrote:

Of course you have it completely wrong that they always leave for a better option...

firefly wrote:

You seem to overlook all the middle-aged, or slightly older, men who dump their wives for a younger model, or a prettier model.

Probably out of context in a quote of mine that include the word always - which men do not always leave for a better option.

That said - in relation to earlier comments I made - You are of course, quite right in regards to what I overlooked - I was focusing particularly on money.

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Or the men who won't go out with an overweight woman, or a flat chested woman, or a woman that they don't think enhances their status, or the way they look to other men (think trophy wives)

Men are fickle in other ways, which is quite true - and the ways they are generally fickle is also explainable by genetics. In caveman day :
- The most beautiful women are viewed as the best reproductive women,
- Big breasted women are considered better able to suckle a child.
- Healthy women are considered better able to have children.
- young women reproduce better than women in their 40+ (which is the general period from where men start 'trading up to a younger model').

vikorr wrote:

Ie. women are attracted to many different things...most of which can be brought down to something that will result in 'provide & protect'

firefly wrote:

Women these days work, they tend to be well educated, and they tend to view a marriage as much more of a partnership in all ways, including financial. They are not all out there looking for a meal ticket, or someone to "protect" them.

I didn't say they all were. I'm fairly sure you knew that too, so the exageration makes me curious.

These are all generalisations (which should be utterly obvious, and the numerous generalised outcomes that I made exclude an all statement).

Also, in terms of genetics - have a look at the percentage of each sex that are attracted only to their own sex, and the percentage that are attracted to both sexes, and the percentage that are attracted to only the other sex. Then have a look at the percentages of men & women who (as a whole for each sex) each contain varying degrees of male & female traits....the distribution appears to largely match that of the gay/lesbian/bi/hetero, but perhaps not mutual to that distribution....it's obvious that there will be genetic exceptions to this rule.

...and genetics is also able to be overridden by our mind to varying degrees...but...

...as a general rule, women are still attracted to those able to provide & protect.

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But none of these generalities, or over-generalizations, really helps someone who has problems forming or maintaining relationships.

True to an extent – in that you are talking about ‘really’ helping a person like that (which is 'really' a matter of degrees). As I said 2-3 times near the start – he needs to spend to see a professional because what he needs takes a lot more time than anyone here can give. That doesn’t make generalised discussion useless

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@rosborne979,

rosborne979 wrote:

Who is speaking in that video?

Alan Watts. Philosopher and zen practitioner before it was trendy.

http://alanwatts.com/life-and-works/

He has some really great lectures that are still relevant today even though he passed away in 73. In fact a lot of things he talked about are even more relevant today then during the 60s and 70s when he did his most popular lectures.

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@MichaelJ,

Yes. The meaning of life is not the same as your dreams unless your dream is actually the true meaning of life. The true meaning of life is 100% difficult to attain but also 100% attainable. I am making some bold but sound implications with this statement.

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@firefly,

Like I mentioned before, I have trouble concentrating when I write now so what I have to say may not be poetic enough but I'm going to try to explain my viewpoint a bit further. However I'm more than a bit inebriated also so please bear with me.

I appreciate the input from you all. I'm not trying to be combative, I'm just trying to express ideas. I am giving thought to everything that you've had to say. Thank you.

First off I don't know how to use this site quite fully yet so I don't know how to do that thing where you show the quote you're responding to.

I think that just because I'm depressed it doesn't diminish my ability to reason soundly. I still am fully capable of forming opinions based on facts that I see in the real world. I merely have difficulty finding motivation to do anything for myself about it.

That's thanks to a concept called learned helplessness. I didn't become this way overnight. I've learned over the course of a lifetime that this is simply how life is.

I'm a bit insulted to be called a "needy child". My parents death was very traumatic. And yes I've lost quite a few other people in my life to deaths and other circumstances. If I've developed worry about never knowing if it's going to be the last time I see someone I hope you can understand where I'm coming from. I'm human. Also people are absolutely capable of feeling lonely even when they're surrounded by other people. Just because there are people around doesn't mean you connect with them. The people I've had the strongest connections with aren't around anymore.

The day after my birthday I found out that Ms. Poppins is engaged to him, a mere 7 1/2 months after leaving because she "wanted to be single".

I guess I need to give you some back story for perspective.

I'm not at all religious, but I have a deep desire to want to believe there's something in this world that makes us more than mere organs and tissue and bones. Something that means the behaviors that make us unique as individuals isn't just due to chemical reactions in our brains. Some kind of "magic" for lack of a better term. Something that can explain that feeling of appreciation that you sense for beautiful things in life. Music, art, natural beauty, love, and most importantly friendship.

I very strongly believe that friendship is the most important facet of human life, and that striving to help others is the highest thing a human being can try for. Because we as a human race are one with each other. Caring for those around us enables those people to better care for us in return.

The reason I'm so terribly depressed is because after an exhaustive amount of my lifetime spent thinking about things like "Is there a God?" and, "Does life have meaning?" I've come a very disheartening yet truthful realization that people don't have any "magic" inside them. People are only as moral as there options are.

There was a scientific study that showed up in the news this past summer during the Wall Street protests that talked about how wealthy people are less altruistic and less empathetic to the concerns of others. Think about it, if you've lived a privileged life and you've never heard the word "no" or never had to struggle for anything, how would that affect your attitude towards others?

I think this concept can be applied to other groups in life besides wealthy people who are privileged. Especially one of the two biggest subgroups in the human race: women.

I believe that women are proof positive that 1) God doesn't exist and 2) Life is a joke.

I love women ...so so much. Three of my best friends are women. As a heterosexual male I also have an appreciation for women that's hot-wired into the core of my genetic imprint. Women have a power over me that I can't put into words. Just having a woman around you that you know appreciates you is intoxicating. The way a woman smells, the way her voice sounds; these things have power over men. The way that a man feels merely if he anticipates a chance of making love to a woman must be something akin to the pull that a heroin user feels.

Women are the prize in life to catch. Women are more special than men. Women have more power than men. Women can give birth to new life!!! there's nothing man can do that's that special. Women are also impossible.

Some background on me, I went back to school later in life so I'm about 10 years older than most people in my social circle. I went to college because of 2 things, 1) Because of my situation growing up, I was forced to work unskilled labor jobs right after high school. I HATED this type of work because I felt I was capable of so much more. 2) The year before I started college my best friend was diagnosed with cancer. For about a good three months I spent almost all my free time at the hospital with him. During this period in my life I had been dating someone for almost five years, the love of my life at that point. My first serious girlfriend. Well it turns out that the nights I spent at the hospital with my friend, my fiancé had been spending her nights with someone else. I caught them in the act, in our apartment one night coming home from the hospital. My friend died the next week.

I didn't date anyone for almost six years after that.

I met Ms. Poppins on my birthday, the second to the last year of college. We were instant friends the moment we met, effortlessly able to talk to and relate with each other. And I'm someone who is very shy and has a very hard time getting to know new people.

We were friends for about a good year after that. Very close friends. During this time she was dating one of my friends who I worked with, let's call him Jack. Well Jack is a very goofy looking guy, but he is extraordinarily good with women because he's such a great manipulator and such a smooth talker. He also recognizes how important it is to project alpha male qualities. Because of this he has an almost otherworldly ability to charm people.

Jack had also fooled around with almost every female within our social circle prior to his dating Ms. Poppins. Including an intern who had long since left town. I happened to have a very strong crush on this person. One night Jack and I got drunk together and wound up in an argument about this person. I ended up not talking to Jack for about a month after this. I also avoided Ms. Poppins by association. To Jack this woman was just another girl to be fooled around with and forgotten. He didn't appreciate how special and sweet she was.

During this time MS. Popins texted me CONSTANTLY, wrote on my facebook and called me telling me that she missed me. I just avoided her. Finally after running into her at a friend's one night, the next day I wrote her a long email about what a douchbag Jack is and what's the point of even trying with women because there'll always be some smooth talker like him with all the moves to swoop in.

The next day she wrote to me just two lines: (This is from the actual email) Michael, I want to carefully think about what you wrote me and let my thoughts set in for a couple days. I care about you alot and you deserve a real response.

She wrote me back a couple days later this HUGE email. She told me that she had been crying a lot because she thought she'd never see me again because I couldn't fix things with Jack. She told me when she met me she felt an instant connection with me. She said that she felt like "she'd met a friend who had been missing from her life for her whole life and she didn't even know he was." She royally bitched me out for doubting myself. She said I was "a great looking guy, who people know is a good person right away when they meet you", and told me that I was "funnier than I could ever realize", and that the only thing I needed "was to work on my confidence, so that other people can see what I (MS. Poppins) see too". After each sentence she wrote, "You are young Michael!".

She said a lot of other things in that email too. Things that no woman has ever said to me in my life. And we weren't ******* then. This was my friend talking to me.

Well Ms. Poppins eventually broke up with Jack. A few months later because of my financial situation I was forced to look for a roomate to help lower living costs during my last year at school. Ms. Popins, also needed a new place to live and we agreed to be roomates. Two weeks before we moved, she confessed that she was in love with me. I was TERRIFIED at first, but because of our already strong friendship I eventually fell in love with her harder than I'd ever fallen for someone before.

When things started she kept saying "If things get tough, let's always make sure to talk things out". She'd constantly tell me not to put walls up, and pry into my mind wondering my thoughts on what was happening. I admittedly had some pretty big walls up. I was scared. I had this amazing, beautiful woman, the first person id dated in six years who was my best friend. Eventually i started letting the walls down. I was so in love with her. And the more I'd let myself care about her and more importantly LET HER KNOW THAT, the less attracted she became to me.

When I was hesitant about a relationship, she worked extra hard to win me over. Because women want GAME PLAYING. They want hard to get. you can't just say "I like you, I think I might love you. Can we just be cool with each other?" Because I'm a "nice guy" I treated her like a queen and I lowered my guard. I told her that she could get as fat as she wanted because she'd always be sexy to me. And I told her that because I loved her so much I'd probably forgive for anything irrational she could ever do.

She knew I was putty in her hands and that's not sexy to women! Women want (and will ONLY go for) alpha males who project social status, who have all the perfect things to say to everyone, and most importantly dominate women. Because in order to survive biologically speaking males must dominate females. That's why bad boys are sexy! Women WANT to be treated like ****! Because If a male is already pre-selected as attractive by other attractive females he has more worth.

Towards the end she said we had to quit saying "I love you". She wouldn't say it to me, but she kept sleeping with me. Of course she knew she was going to leave me and she knew how much I loved her, but that didn't stop her from continuing to sleep with me.

She told me that she "needed to be single for awhile" and that This year was "about her independence" . While she was moving out we wrote back and forth and also had many face to face discussions. With tears in my eyes I told how I was so scared that I would never talk to her or see her again. She said "this isn't goodbye, I'll be here if you need me", and said that we were friends above all else and that it was extremely important that we don't lose that.

For months after she left I swallowed my pride and tried to talk to her. I was in love with her, but mostly I loved my friend and if that was all we could be I was willing to do that because I wanted her in my life. I begged her for months to get together. She'd never have time, or she'd get angry with me even if I was being as nice as I possibly could. Eventually (after many months) I gave up trying to talk to her.

Then I find out that she was with Donald Duck immediately (within days of leaving me/perhaps even while she was still with me) after she left me. That's why she didn't have time for her "friend"! Then she runs off to California with him, and now they're engaged. All within about 7 months. Oh and because we had a lease I was forced to live in the apartment we shared for 6 of those months, each day living with her ghost while she was off banging Donald.

What hurts the most is that whether we had stayed boyfriend and girlfriend or just went back to being friends, I wanted to keep the nice things she'd said to me with me for the rest of my life. They meant so much to me. They made me feel good about myself for the first time in years, and they were all ******* bullshit!!! She used me, and when she was done she threw me away.

In the end the reasons she didn't love me were all superficial and went against her advice of how awesome I was, and how women want 'nice guys' like me. In reality it was all about how I'm not outgoing, and don't know how to play hard to get/game playing in general. Because I'd tell her sweet things or be 'lovey dovey' (her words) instead. It was about how I don't have money. It was about how I wasn't smooth enough with her family to impress them and win them over.

I was happy. I was in love with my best friend. I slept in the same bed with her. She'd pull herself up close to me and put her head on my chest and we'd fall asleep like that. She cooked for me. I'd drive her to work and kiss her goodbye. She'd wear my clothes. What I'd dreamed about my entire life was happening

So now the love of my life is going to have someone else's kids. I'll never be able to better than her. A beautiful, young woman who was my best friend. Who got all my dumb jokes. What difference does the rest of life make?

Women are impossible. I will never be the leader of men, rich, outgoing, smooth talker that they require. And they have ALL the control in relationships. They can just pick and choose who they want. They have never ending options available to them.

A companion in life is what I want. Call that a dream or a goal or whatever you want. It's something that can never be fulfilled with anything other than a companion.

I was simply born into a life that won't allow a woman in. I have zero control over this. I can't be someone I'm not.

These are very dark days for me. I'm trying very hard to find other meaning in life. It's so, so hard. It was SIX years of being alone before Ms. Poppins. Thinking about having to go that long again to possibly only lose again gives me truly dark thoughts.

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Quote:

Can life have meaning if your dreams are unattainable?

Define: "meaning" ??????

0 Replies

@MichaelJ,

MichaelJ wrote:

Like I mentioned before, I have trouble concentrating when I write now so what I have to say may not be poetic enough but I'm going to try to explain my viewpoint a bit further. However I'm more than a bit inebriated also so please bear with me.

I appreciate the input from you all. I'm not trying to be combative, I'm just trying to express ideas. I am giving thought to everything that you've had to say. Thank you.

First off I don't know how to use this site quite fully yet so I don't know how to do that thing where you show the quote you're responding to.

I think that just because I'm depressed it doesn't diminish my ability to reason soundly. I still am fully capable of forming opinions based on facts that I see in the real world. I merely have difficulty finding motivation to do anything for myself about it.

That's thanks to a concept called learned helplessness. I didn't become this way overnight. I've learned over the course of a lifetime that this is simply how life is.

I'm a bit insulted to be called a "needy child". My parents death was very traumatic. And yes I've lost quite a few other people in my life to deaths and other circumstances. If I've developed worry about never knowing if it's going to be the last time I see someone I hope you can understand where I'm coming from. I'm human. Also people are absolutely capable of feeling lonely even when they're surrounded by other people. Just because there are people around doesn't mean you connect with them. The people I've had the strongest connections with aren't around anymore.

The day after my birthday I found out that Ms. Poppins is engaged to him, a mere 7 1/2 months after leaving because she "wanted to be single".

I guess I need to give you some back story for perspective.

I'm not at all religious, but I have a deep desire to want to believe there's something in this world that makes us more than mere organs and tissue and bones. Something that means the behaviors that make us unique as individuals isn't just due to chemical reactions in our brains. Some kind of "magic" for lack of a better term. Something that can explain that feeling of appreciation that you sense for beautiful things in life. Music, art, natural beauty, love, and most importantly friendship.

I very strongly believe that friendship is the most important facet of human life, and that striving to help others is the highest thing a human being can try for. Because we as a human race are one with each other. Caring for those around us enables those people to better care for us in return.

The reason I'm so terribly depressed is because after an exhaustive amount of my lifetime spent thinking about things like "Is there a God?" and, "Does life have meaning?" I've come a very disheartening yet truthful realization that people don't have any "magic" inside them. People are only as moral as there options are.

There was a scientific study that showed up in the news this past summer during the Wall Street protests that talked about how wealthy people are less altruistic and less empathetic to the concerns of others. Think about it, if you've lived a privileged life and you've never heard the word "no" or never had to struggle for anything, how would that affect your attitude towards others?

I think this concept can be applied to other groups in life besides wealthy people who are privileged. Especially one of the two biggest subgroups in the human race: women.

I believe that women are proof positive that 1) God doesn't exist and 2) Life is a joke.

I love women ...so so much. Three of my best friends are women. As a heterosexual male I also have an appreciation for women that's hot-wired into the core of my genetic imprint. Women have a power over me that I can't put into words. Just having a woman around you that you know appreciates you is intoxicating. The way a woman smells, the way her voice sounds; these things have power over men. The way that a man feels merely if he anticipates a chance of making love to a woman must be something akin to the pull that a heroin user feels.

Women are the prize in life to catch. Women are more special than men. Women have more power than men. Women can give birth to new life!!! there's nothing man can do that's that special. Women are also impossible.

Some background on me, I went back to school later in life so I'm about 10 years older than most people in my social circle. I went to college because of 2 things, 1) Because of my situation growing up, I was forced to work unskilled labor jobs right after high school. I HATED this type of work because I felt I was capable of so much more. 2) The year before I started college my best friend was diagnosed with cancer. For about a good three months I spent almost all my free time at the hospital with him. During this period in my life I had been dating someone for almost five years, the love of my life at that point. My first serious girlfriend. Well it turns out that the nights I spent at the hospital with my friend, my fiancé had been spending her nights with someone else. I caught them in the act, in our apartment one night coming home from the hospital. My friend died the next week.

I didn't date anyone for almost six years after that.

I met Ms. Poppins on my birthday, the second to the last year of college. We were instant friends the moment we met, effortlessly able to talk to and relate with each other. And I'm someone who is very shy and has a very hard time getting to know new people.

We were friends for about a good year after that. Very close friends. During this time she was dating one of my friends who I worked with, let's call him Jack. Well Jack is a very goofy looking guy, but he is extraordinarily good with women because he's such a great manipulator and such a smooth talker. He also recognizes how important it is to project alpha male qualities. Because of this he has an almost otherworldly ability to charm people.

Jack had also fooled around with almost every female within our social circle prior to his dating Ms. Poppins. Including an intern who had long since left town. I happened to have a very strong crush on this person. One night Jack and I got drunk together and wound up in an argument about this person. I ended up not talking to Jack for about a month after this. I also avoided Ms. Poppins by association. To Jack this woman was just another girl to be fooled around with and forgotten. He didn't appreciate how special and sweet she was.

During this time MS. Popins texted me CONSTANTLY, wrote on my facebook and called me telling me that she missed me. I just avoided her. Finally after running into her at a friend's one night, the next day I wrote her a long email about what a douchbag Jack is and what's the point of even trying with women because there'll always be some smooth talker like him with all the moves to swoop in.

The next day she wrote to me just two lines: (This is from the actual email) Michael, I want to carefully think about what you wrote me and let my thoughts set in for a couple days. I care about you alot and you deserve a real response.

She wrote me back a couple days later this HUGE email. She told me that she had been crying a lot because she thought she'd never see me again because I couldn't fix things with Jack. She told me when she met me she felt an instant connection with me. She said that she felt like "she'd met a friend who had been missing from her life for her whole life and she didn't even know he was." She royally bitched me out for doubting myself. She said I was "a great looking guy, who people know is a good person right away when they meet you", and told me that I was "funnier than I could ever realize", and that the only thing I needed "was to work on my confidence, so that other people can see what I (MS. Poppins) see too". After each sentence she wrote, "You are young Michael!".

She said a lot of other things in that email too. Things that no woman has ever said to me in my life. And we weren't ******* then. This was my friend talking to me.

Well Ms. Poppins eventually broke up with Jack. A few months later because of my financial situation I was forced to look for a roomate to help lower living costs during my last year at school. Ms. Popins, also needed a new place to live and we agreed to be roomates. Two weeks before we moved, she confessed that she was in love with me. I was TERRIFIED at first, but because of our already strong friendship I eventually fell in love with her harder than I'd ever fallen for someone before.

When things started she kept saying "If things get tough, let's always make sure to talk things out". She'd constantly tell me not to put walls up, and pry into my mind wondering my thoughts on what was happening. I admittedly had some pretty big walls up. I was scared. I had this amazing, beautiful woman, the first person id dated in six years who was my best friend. Eventually i started letting the walls down. I was so in love with her. And the more I'd let myself care about her and more importantly LET HER KNOW THAT, the less attracted she became to me.

When I was hesitant about a relationship, she worked extra hard to win me over. Because women want GAME PLAYING. They want hard to get. you can't just say "I like you, I think I might love you. Can we just be cool with each other?" Because I'm a "nice guy" I treated her like a queen and I lowered my guard. I told her that she could get as fat as she wanted because she'd always be sexy to me. And I told her that because I loved her so much I'd probably forgive for anything irrational she could ever do.

She knew I was putty in her hands and that's not sexy to women! Women want (and will ONLY go for) alpha males who project social status, who have all the perfect things to say to everyone, and most importantly dominate women. Because in order to survive biologically speaking males must dominate females. That's why bad boys are sexy! Women WANT to be treated like ****! Because If a male is already pre-selected as attractive by other attractive females he has more worth.

Towards the end she said we had to quit saying "I love you". She wouldn't say it to me, but she kept sleeping with me. Of course she knew she was going to leave me and she knew how much I loved her, but that didn't stop her from continuing to sleep with me.

She told me that she "needed to be single for awhile" and that This year was "about her independence" . While she was moving out we wrote back and forth and also had many face to face discussions. With tears in my eyes I told how I was so scared that I would never talk to her or see her again. She said "this isn't goodbye, I'll be here if you need me", and said that we were friends above all else and that it was extremely important that we don't lose that.

For months after she left I swallowed my pride and tried to talk to her. I was in love with her, but mostly I loved my friend and if that was all we could be I was willing to do that because I wanted her in my life. I begged her for months to get together. She'd never have time, or she'd get angry with me even if I was being as nice as I possibly could. Eventually (after many months) I gave up trying to talk to her.

Then I find out that she was with Donald Duck immediately (within days of leaving me/perhaps even while she was still with me) after she left me. That's why she didn't have time for her "friend"! Then she runs off to California with him, and now they're engaged. All within about 7 months. Oh and because we had a lease I was forced to live in the apartment we shared for 6 of those months, each day living with her ghost while she was off banging Donald.

What hurts the most is that whether we had stayed boyfriend and girlfriend or just went back to being friends, I wanted to keep the nice things she'd said to me with me for the rest of my life. They meant so much to me. They made me feel good about myself for the first time in years, and they were all ******* bullshit!!! She used me, and when she was done she threw me away.

In the end the reasons she didn't love me were all superficial and went against her advice of how awesome I was, and how women want 'nice guys' like me. In reality it was all about how I'm not outgoing, and don't know how to play hard to get/game playing in general. Because I'd tell her sweet things or be 'lovey dovey' (her words) instead. It was about how I don't have money. It was about how I wasn't smooth enough with her family to impress them and win them over.

I was happy. I was in love with my best friend. I slept in the same bed with her. She'd pull herself up close to me and put her head on my chest and we'd fall asleep like that. She cooked for me. I'd drive her to work and kiss her goodbye. She'd wear my clothes. What I'd dreamed about my entire life was happening

So now the love of my life is going to have someone else's kids. I'll never be able to better than her. A beautiful, young woman who was my best friend. Who got all my dumb jokes. What difference does the rest of life make?

Women are impossible. I will never be the leader of men, rich, outgoing, smooth talker that they require. And they have ALL the control in relationships. They can just pick and choose who they want. They have never ending options available to them.

A companion in life is what I want. Call that a dream or a goal or whatever you want. It's something that can never be fulfilled with anything other than a companion.

I was simply born into a life that won't allow a woman in. I have zero control over this. I can't be someone I'm not.

These are very dark days for me. I'm trying very hard to find other meaning in life. It's so, so hard. It was SIX years of being alone before Ms. Poppins. Thinking about having to go that long again to possibly only lose again gives me truly dark thoughts.

Michael I understand your situation completely. You don't want to be someone who you feel you are not just to attract a woman. However; the animal kingdom including humans are that way. Weather or not you want to see it, it IS that way.

For example, look at women. They wear make up, but why? The are essentially lying to attract men (if they are heterosexual that is). Applying color to accent features or cover others is giving off a false identity. Wearing perfume and other cosmetic things are exactly the same way. Males don't do this to that much of a degree because physical appearance isn't exactly what women look for. You even admit to understanding the situation. Men lie by giving off that false impression that they are who women want them to be and that attracts them.

I know you understand all that which I have said to you, but it is the method of your escape to success. I suggest this, although I know you'll be hesitant. If you want the companion that you seek, the only way you will get it is to be the person you don't want to be. You only have to be that person temporarily. You have to be that way long enough to impress upon her that you are who she really wants. Once she has made up her mind there is a chance she won't change it unless you really mess it up.

What I described here is the law of attraction. The only other way it works is if you are naturally compatible with the other person from a get go without anything outside influencing the relationship but that is extremely rare. Humans although they want to claim they can be unconditional are far from ever being unconditional.

Everything in life is a sacrifice. Your career, your life style, everything. If you don't want to change an aspect of your personality to attract women then that is the sacrifice you are making for your own happiness. So you must decide if you are willing to live with changing your attitude towards being "dishonest" or being "honest" and failing to attract a potential companion. There is give or take with everything, what are you willing to "pay" to get what you want?

It doesn't have to be a permanent thing. All you need to do is get them to a point where they think of you as a companion regardless of anything else then you can revert to who you are. By then it'll be too late for them to change their mind. Is it dishonest, sure but that is how this existence goes. You can hate it all you want but it won't change the reality of it. Accept the reality and get the pay off or reject the reality and be alone in your misery that you refuse to "play the game".

Careers and making money are exactly the same way!

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Can life have meaning if your dreams are unattainable?

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