22
   

Can life have meaning if your dreams are unattainable?

 
 
Tifinden
 
  1  
Tue 28 Feb, 2012 11:37 am
@michelleyy,
Euphemistic and euphoric stance, michelleyy.
Our dreams are the cognitive emulation of our lives, and therefore, what we achive logistically in life, is allegorically represented in the visage of dream worlds.
0 Replies
 
firefly
 
  -1  
Tue 28 Feb, 2012 02:09 pm
@MichaelJ,
MichaelJ, stop trying to make over-generalizations about women and what you think they want. Human relationships are complex interactions of two individuals and thinking about them in terms of overly simplistic and inaccurate gender stereotypes won't help you in the slightest.

There is no guaranteed happily ever after in romantic relationships, no matter how much in love two people feel at the outset. As much as we might wish for and want those strong emotional bonds to remain firm indefinitely, sometimes they do, but sometimes they don't. Even the best relationships take work, a lot of work, because conflicts are inevitable, needs change, and external events impact lives. Most romantic relationships have a limited shelf life. One out of two marriages ends in divorce. Sometimes our hearts get broken, sometimes we break the hearts of others. Happiness in a relationship does not always last forever. Our lives are shaped by our experiences of attachments and loss.

I did not, at all mean to insult you by describing you as a "needy child". I do think you have deep needs to be cared for and loved, but I think you see yourself in the helpless and dependent position of a child. And, as a child, you were "abandoned" by your parents when they died, and there is no greater loss or emotional trauma a child can suffer. And the loss of a significant relationship, such as the one with your fiancée, or Ms. Poppins, still rocks you to your core, and it leaves you feeling just as hopeless and helpless and anxious and confused as you must have felt when you were 12. And, because of that, you become depressed, and retreat into yourself, and feel you have "zero control" over events. You don't have control over events, and you can't control how others act, but you can control how you react to those things, including how you choose to deal with rejection, and how you address your problems with self esteem.

You've told us how the two important women in your life let you down and betrayed you. And, in both relationships, you either seem to have missed all the signals that something was amiss with your partner, or you just didn't address them, until the other person clearly wanted out. But, in both instances, in talking about these relationships, you don't seem to have gained much insight into yourself or your partners or what was actually going on between the two of you.
Quote:
And the more I'd let myself care about her and more importantly LET HER KNOW THAT, the less attracted she became to me.

Has it occurred to you that Ms. Poppins might have experienced your dependency on her, and your need for her, as rather stifling, or even burdensome? You might have made her feel too responsible for your emotional well being, and too responsible for being your emotional caretaker, which is why she might have felt the need for her own psychological space, to be "single for awhile", to find "independence". She might have felt smothered by your needs, and by what you felt were expressions of love, and that just wasn't what she needed at that point in her life. She might have enjoyed the relationship for a time, but her needs might have changed, people aren't static, relationships aren't static. Not all couples live happily ever after. That's life.
Quote:
Women are impossible. I will never be the leader of men, rich, outgoing, smooth talker that they require. And they have ALL the control in relationships. They can just pick and choose who they want. They have never ending options available to them.

That's absolute rubbish. You're thinking that way because you feel helpless and sorry for yourself because this woman chose to move on with her life without you. If all women required a, "leader of men, rich, outgoing, smooth talker" most men would be sitting alone, or enjoying each other's company, because very few men fall into that category.

None of us have "never ending options" available to us--all of us appeal to some people more than others. All of us will be a better match with some people rather than others, and that's based on our individual personalities more than anything else. Those rich, smooth-talking, leaders of men aren't all in blissful relationships and living happily ever after either. And women have no more control in a relationship than a man does--relationships have conflicts, people make demands on each other, compromises have to be made, it's a continuous process of give and take--a good relationship has balance, not one person in control. And plenty of women wind up being rejected, or betrayed, by men they loved and trusted. You've never been a woman, so your perspective is rather skewed.
Quote:
I was simply born into a life that won't allow a woman in. I have zero control over this. I can't be someone I'm not.

These are very dark days for me. I'm trying very hard to find other meaning in life. It's so, so hard. It was SIX years of being alone before Ms. Poppins. Thinking about having to go that long again to possibly only lose again gives me truly dark thoughts.

It's great that you can love and enjoy women, and that you want a close female companion sharing your life. And stop telling yourself you can't find one. You're afraid of being hurt and rejected again, but that's the risk we all take when we get involved with someone and develop strong feelings for them, and, if we don't make ourselves vulnerable in that way, we don't feel love. You've got to be able to "allow a woman in" if you want to feel love and be loved. You've got to be willing to take a risk--there are no guarantees that the other person will forever be by your side. You take life, and relationships, one day at a time.

Work on your self esteem, and stop telling yourself you don't measure up to other men. If you don't like and accept yourself, why should a woman be attracted to you? So she can bolster your sagging ego? What you have to offer other people is yourself, and you have to like yourself, and believe that what you have to give to others is something of value. You have to believe you are lovable, just for yourself, otherwise you should question the sanity of any person who says they love and care about you.

Stop worrying about "the meaning of life" and start putting some meaning into your life. Set some specific goals for yourself. If you are lonely, how can you improve your social life? What kind of groups or organizations can you join where you can pursue some sort of interest of yours and meet new people at the same time?
If caring about others is important to you, look for some volunteer work you can do, or an organization that works to improve the welfare of others, and donate some time and energy toward a good cause. It's a lot better than moping around feeling sorry for yourself, and it will help you to be the kind of altruistic person you seem to admire.

Anything you can do to meet new people, both men and women, will help to expand your horizons beyond where they are now, and it will increase the chances you'll find a woman you'd like to become involved with. Men have sisters or daughters they can introduce you to, or their girlfriends or wives have female friends looking to meet someone. Believe it or not, women can have a hard time meeting someone too. Smile And casual dating is fine, the more people you go out with, the more likely it is you'll find that companion you're looking for. And it sounds like you might need to hang out with some people, including women, who are closer to your own age if everyone you know is younger than you are.
Quote:
That's thanks to a concept called learned helplessness. I didn't become this way overnight. I've learned over the course of a lifetime that this is simply how life is.

That's not how life is. You are not helpless, and if you've learned to be helpless, or learned to think of yourself as helpless, that's something you've got to work on, probably in therapy, because that's how you'll overcome your depression.

Your relationship with Ms. Poppins wasn't all bad, some parts of it were exactly what you wanted, it just didn't last. But, what was good about that relationship, and the way you felt in that relationship, is what should motivate you to start looking to meet more people and to start dating again. It shouldn't take you another 6 years to find someone whose companionship you enjoy, and where the feeling is mutual, not unless you set unrealistic standards/requirements or you keep your guard so high that no one can penetrate your defenses. There are a great many women out there who are looking for the same things you are in a relationship, and you just have to keep searching until you find them.

Loss in life is inevitable. And the pain of loss is the price we pay for our emotional attachments. But we need those bonds and connections, to enjoy and enrich our lives for as long as they do last, be it for a lifetime, or for a few years, or even for a few months. We need to enjoy them in the present, while we experience them, without worrying about what might come next. We don't get to read the last chapter when we become involved with someone. We don't know how the story will turn out. But, unless we chance that uncertainly, we remain isolated and deprived of closeness.

So, muster up your courage. Put some energy into expanding your social contacts and become involved with groups where you can meet people and form new friendships, both male and female. By doing that, you will increase the probability of finding that companion you want to be with. The alternative is to crawl up into a ball, get drunk, and lick your wounds. And, since that's not making you very happy either, you might as well risk trying something that might bring some pleasure back into your life.


























MichaelJ
 
  2  
Tue 28 Feb, 2012 02:52 pm
@Krumple,
You have further proved my points.

Humans are nothing more than monkeys/meat puppets.

Women are deceptive liars.

Life is a joke because some people have been given the random life circumstance that allow them to attract a female in this way, others haven't.
djjd62
 
  2  
Tue 28 Feb, 2012 02:57 pm
@MichaelJ,
boo hoo hoo

grow up
0 Replies
 
vikorr
 
  1  
Tue 28 Feb, 2012 03:58 pm
@MichaelJ,
Quote:
I was simply born into a life that won't allow a woman in. I have zero control over this.
Michael, as gently as I can say this - you are telling a flat out lie. You've already had 2 women in your life. That you so desperately want more doesn't change a fact that you are plain ignoring.

Quote:
I can't be someone I'm not.
True enough, but your views and values can change, and you can grow.

Your weaknesses you can strengthen, your strengths you can refine. Skills you don't possess you can attain (through training). Awareness you don't possess you can aquire. Self-esteem can grow etc.

Now, you say "what has that got to do with the weight of a rock on the moon?"...

You have a lot of misconceptions about women, and hold on to partial truths. These misconceptions and partial truths you use to justify your victimhood. You are not a victim, except of your own choosing...a true victim would be my quadraplegic brother who suffered a castastrophic accident while trying a ship board rescue of a sailor suffering a heart attack. High winds, helicopters & ships don't work well for that sort of thing. To this day, he still smiles, makes jokes, welcomes people over etc. He will never again make love to a woman, he will never again hold a woman. But his world didn't end. Attitude in this is everything. He chooses not to be a victim.

So forgive me when I say "People who complain about never again being able to find a life partner...when they have the phsyical ability to, and can choose to better themselves and find a woman...well, that pisses me off because they DO have the the physical ability to do it, and if they choose not to better their mind to achieve it...that is THEIR CHOICE...a choice they are throwing away...where others don't have that choice but don't whinge with victimhood rubbish.

Now that I've had my little rant :

(As I said - you really should read "Mans search for meaning". It in Victor Frankl said words to the effect of "They could take every single thing away from us : our clothes, our health, our freedom...but they could not take away the one freedom that remains to all people, always - our ability to choose how we handled our situation, our attitude to situation, and what we chose to make of it.)

Firstly, as a general genetic rule - in caveman days, women were programmed to be attracted to men who could provide & protect. Then the logical mind comes in over the top of that....but in terms of attraction, the base remains thes same. So let's have a look at your post :

Quote:
And the more I'd let myself care about her and more importantly LET HER KNOW THAT, the less attracted she became to me.

Because I'm a "nice guy" I treated her like a queen and I lowered my guard. If she 'bacame your whole world', then you will probably find that you started living in her world, rather than maintaining your own. People contribute their unique individuality to relationships - this is what is attractive to the other person...and together they create a relationship - think of it as a separate and living entity for this one purpose. You contribute your unique invidivuality to the relationship, and as long as both of you do so, it grows and thrives. But if you 'live in her world' (the the relationships world, her world - her unique individual world that she contributes to the relationship), you are giving up 'your world, and you stop contributing that part to the relationship, and so it withers a bit. The more you do this (live in her world) the more the relationship withers'.

Also, it drains people a great deal to be responsible for someone elses life. We prefer people who are responsible for our life, and enhance ours. ie We should both be enhancing each others life with our unique individuality, but you gave that up for flattery - didn't state your wants or go after them (outside of her, which is what she needs to see )

And if you lived in 'her world', how could your world ever be strong enough to provide & protect

That's incredibly condensed. It really needs more space


I told her that she could get as fat as she wanted because she'd always be sexy to me. Unless she was fat to start with - that's a lie that no woman will ever believe (some men do chubby chase). It's also an issue because it shows you don't stand up for what you want, and if you don't do that - how can you ever provide & protect her

And I told her that because I loved her so much I'd probably forgive for anything irrational she could ever do. Another lie...but say it was true - that would be even worse. If you are prepared to be walked over, how can you ever stand up for yourself and provide & protect?

Because in order to survive biologically speaking males must dominate females. No - they must show they are capable of providing & protecting.

That's why bad boys are sexy! Women WANT to be treated like ****! That is just plain wrong.

In terms of why bad boys are attractive - as surface things : bad boys go after what they want no matter the consequences, they are confident, they are persistent, they have focus. They are popular (social status is of some importance), they have life, and they have energy. All these things are necessary to providing & protecting.

Because If a male is already pre-selected as attractive by other attractive females he has more worth. So? Have you ever noticed that drop dead ugly guys find women too?

In the end the reasons she didn't love me were all superficial Mostly, it seems genetics played a large part - as it always will. You can otherwise rail against your humanity on this, or you can accept that we are this way, and start learning to stand up for yourself with women...to do things you want to do, to tell them when they piss you off, to go after what you want even if they don't like you for it...and to at the same time have a kind, caring, and protective side to you.
In reality it was all about how I'm not outgoing, and don't know how to play hard to get/game playing in general.

Because I'd tell her sweet things or be 'lovey dovey' (her words) instead.

No - the use of the word 'lovey dovey' is often used because you gave up your world, and because you'd not stand up for yourself, not tell her when she did something that hurt you or pissed you off...not make decisions, but leave it to her ...if you can't do these things, how can you provide and protect ? (that's usually an extension of the former)

It was about how I don't have money. It was about how I wasn't smooth enough with her family to impress them and win them over.

Women can lie about the reasons they leave you know. Don't take everything they say to heart.
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Tue 28 Feb, 2012 04:04 pm
@MichaelJ,
MichaelJ wrote:
You have further proved my points.

Humans are nothing more than monkeys/meat puppets.
WHAT were u expecting ???????




MichaelJ wrote:
Women are deceptive liars.
THOSE r the worst kind of liars!
The non-deceptive kind r much nicer.




MichaelJ wrote:
Life is a joke
R u laffing????
Do u prefer the alternative ??????



MichaelJ wrote:
because some people have been given the random life circumstance that allow them to attract a female
The deceptive liars, yea.



MichaelJ wrote:
in this way, others haven't.
How SHUD it have been done?





David
vikorr
 
  1  
Tue 28 Feb, 2012 04:07 pm
@OmSigDAVID,
Psst David - laffing phonetically would be 'Larfing' or 'Lahfing'
MichaelJ
 
  3  
Tue 28 Feb, 2012 07:29 pm
@firefly,
Do you have any idea how angry it makes me to hear you say "She might have enjoyed the relationship for a time, but her needs might have changed"?

Ms. Poppins was a sociopath! Women are sociopaths!

They change their minds on whims out of nowhere!

She knew my life story before we became involved romantically. she knew that for instance I get very depressed around christmas time. She pursued me!!! She pushed me into a relationship when I was hesitant.

You are doing nothing besides further proving my points!

If I'm "needy" and "smother people" it could have to do with not having people in my life during times when I needed them. I'm in agreement with you there. However I HAD NO CHOICE IN MISSING THOSE PEOPLE AT KEY POINTS IN MY LIFE.

This again ties into my point about some people randomly having more in life due to circumstance. I can't do anything about having all my memories from age 12 on up missing "normal" family interactions. I can't "fake" those experiences into my brain so I fit into someone else's expectations. That's like getting mad at a black person because they're not Mexican enough! I can't change a missing part of my past so that I'm less "needy". While at the same time I think someone who really loved me should accept me the way I am. However there are plenty of other men around who grew up under "normal" circumstances, and fit expectations of not being "needy" better.

When I went to thanksgiving with her family I didn't really know how to act because the last time I'd been a part of something like that was YEARS ago.

It's like you're defending her. SHE USED ME. When a man uses a woman for sex or comfort he's such a douchebag, the scum of the earth. But when a woman uses a man it's totally OK becuase she "changed".

Women have these magical changes overnight. Women have endless options it's true. It goes back to what I said about the genetic imprint on a man giving him such a strong desire for women (biologically speaking) that's it's like a drug.

Even if I know with my intellect that women are the most evil thing in life, because I can't change my genetic imprint I'm still forced to want one. I'm still forced to find life less meaningful if being with one isn't a possibility. That's out in out torture!!!! Being forced to want something that you know you hate!?!?

Ms. Poppins by everyone's account, including her own words before we dated had "trouble being single". Meaning she never was single. She dated one person after another. Because she's extremely beautiful and therefore adding the fact that she's female gives her any option under the sun. Women know these things, they know they have power over men, and it's not just the beautiful ones either. It's the "ugly" and "overweight" ones too. Because they're women! Like I said women are prizes, they're better than men! They can create life!

For her to tell me she "wanted to be single" was a lie! When a woman says she wants to be single it either means she wants to date someone else or means she already is seeing someone else. She said "I want to be single" and then 7 months later she's engaged! That's ******* bullshit! What she did was wrong, you can't justify that that was right.

But what's worse is the friend thing. Because I truly would've been fine (eventually) with being friends with her. I cared about her before I loved her. She could've just said 'I don't love you' or "I'm in love with someone else", but no she instead lies and fills me full of crap about how much she 'really" does care about me, and how she wants to be single.

Because the way people distance themselves from the bad things they do is with time and space. Because don't you know that if you do something really bad and times goes by, it's like it never really happened???

This is another reason I think women are sociopaths. They will go to any length to justify something bad they did in their own minds so they don't feel bad about themselves.

It's easier to tell a guy you want to be single than the truth. And then if you cut them out of your life you don't have to see the repercussions of your selfish behavior, so it's like it didn't even happen!!
MichaelJ
 
  3  
Tue 28 Feb, 2012 07:31 pm
@OmSigDAVID,
I was drunk when I posted that.

I'm so sorry mr grammer!
MichaelJ
 
  3  
Tue 28 Feb, 2012 08:01 pm
@vikorr,
I'm so sorry about your brother.

I've been drinking a lot lately. I'm seriously having trouble expressing my thoughts but I have a lot more to say, I want to think about what you've said. I can't write worth crap right now. I'm very depressed. I'm taking what you and firefly said in. I don't completely agree. I just want this mental horrible mental pain to stop, ok? I'm no good to anyone like this.

I also have a friend who is in a wheelchair. It's a long story but his bride also had some magical "change" which included sleeping with several other people who weren't her husband right after her wedding and also coming on to me and telling me things like "He's too nice to me" "He treats me too good", and because sex without the ability to use your legs limits things (he can't walk, but can still have sex) "I need rough sex".
vikorr
 
  1  
Tue 28 Feb, 2012 09:30 pm
@MichaelJ,
Thanks for your sympathies about my brother. That said - as I mentioned, he is making the best of what he's got.

My brother was married with 3 kids at the time. He's still married - but I would not blame his wife if she could not cope with such a life anymore and left him, and I doubt he would blame her either...luckily, she does so far. People are people, and we all have strengths & weaknesses - some are cut out to cope with that, some aren't. That doesn't make the ones that aren't, bad people.

The point of the story is that you still have a working brain & functioning body - it is within your power to achieve a loving relationship. It may be just around the corner, but more likely, it will take years - and taking years is no reason to cry 'it will never happen' - work towards it (especially within yourself, as well as without), and it is possible, and even likely.

By the way- when you get to a certain state, your brain releases chemicals that make it very difficult to achieve equilibrium, let alone happiness. I would seriously consider seeking medical help at this stage - go and see your doctor.

Medication is only a surface treatment, but sometimes it's necessary. People don't commit suicide because they are suicidal - they commit suicide because all their coping mechanisms have failed, and they can't see a way to cope anymore. People that come through the other side can find hope again. Go and see your doctor.
0 Replies
 
firefly
 
  -1  
Tue 28 Feb, 2012 09:43 pm
@MichaelJ,
You really need to see a therapist.

You have obvious problems in relationships, and even entering into relationships, if you go six years between them. Your insight into whatever interpersonal difficulties you do have appears nil.
Quote:
I can't do anything about having all my memories from age 12 on up missing "normal" family interactions. I can't "fake" those experiences into my brain so I fit into someone else's expectations.... I can't change a missing part of my past so that I'm less "needy"

Missing "normal family interactions" during your teen years has nothing to do with your apparent inability to have a mature adult relationship with a mature adult woman, nor does it explain your inability to understand the needs of the other person in a relationship.

You're not 13 years old any more. What you wanted and needed at that age, which may have been mothering, or a protective family structure, still shapes your needs/fantasies/"dreams". You don't want to be in a grown-up relationship with a woman, a person who has her own needs and expectations from a partner, you want a mother, and a mother whose only focus is on nurturing you. And, for a while, it sounds like Ms. Poppins was willing to do that, she tried to prop up your self esteem, she tried to feed your needs, but then she got tired of it and split. And now you're throwing a tantrum.
Quote:
If I'm "needy" and "smother people" it could have to do with not having people in my life during times when I needed them.

Most women are not looking for a needy man/child to mother. It's time to grow up, MichaelJ. You aren't helpless, you've got to learn how to fill your own needs. You've got to learn how to parent yourself. You've got to learn how to fill those empty spaces inside yourself so you have something to give in a relationship. You have to allow that angry, needy, 13 year old that's still inside of you to grow up and catch up with your chronological age. That's why you need therapy.

You can either wallow in self pity and anger or you can try to do something to make your life better. You know you have emotional problems--get some professional help and deal with them.

You blame everything under the sun, and everyone else, for your relationship problems rather than taking the responsibility for both the choices you make and the part you play in why these relationships turn out the way they do, or why others might not even want to get involved with you. Stop intellectualizing, stop rationalizing, and stop playing the helpless victim--it's getting you nowhere because you're not dealing with reality. It's time to work on trying to change yourself, and trying to deal with all that excess emotional baggage and resentment you've been carrying around inside of you since childhood. Go find a therapist.

You want unconditional love, absolute fidelity, and undying devotion? Go buy a dog.

You want a shot at having a satisfying life, that includes satisfying relationships with the opposite sex? Go find a shrink who can help you cut through your own crap.

And knock off the booze--it's the worse thing you can do for a depression.















0 Replies
 
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Tue 28 Feb, 2012 10:53 pm
@vikorr,
vikorr wrote:
Psst David - laffing phonetically would be 'Larfing' or 'Lahfing'
Pssst Vikorr: it woud NOT. No.
There is no r in laffing.

no h either




David
vikorr
 
  1  
Tue 28 Feb, 2012 11:07 pm
@OmSigDAVID,
Um, apparently you don't comprehend phonetics then - when anyone pronounces 'laughing', you can hear a distinct 'ARR' or 'AHH' (exagerated)sound, just before the 'fing', and just after the 'l'.

You also can't hear a small 'a' sound in the word.

The irony is that, despite the fact you think writing shouldn't have rules - to spell phonetically you still need to follow the phonetic rules for indivudual letters, and phonetic rules for combinations of letters where a sound we make when speaking doesn't exist in isolation for a single letter (otherwise phonetics couldn't exist)
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Tue 28 Feb, 2012 11:14 pm
@vikorr,
vikorr wrote:
Um, apparently you don't comprehend phonetics then - when anyone pronounces 'laughing', you can hear a distinct 'ARR' or 'AHH' (exagerated)sound, just before the 'fing', and just after the 'l'.
I re-iterate that there is no r in laffing,
your assertions to the contrary notwithstanding.



vikorr wrote:
You also can't hear a small 'a' sound in the word.
False; u hear it after the L.




vikorr wrote:
The irony is that, despite the fact you think writing shouldn't have rules
I have never held that opinion.





vikorr wrote:
- to spell phonetically you still need to follow the phonetic rules for indivudual letters, and phonetic rules for combinations of letters where a sound we make when speaking doesn't exist in isolation for a single letter (otherwise phonetics couldn't exist)
Fonetic lexicografers will attend to everything relevant.





David
vikorr
 
  1  
Tue 28 Feb, 2012 11:23 pm
@OmSigDAVID,
lmao, alright then Smile
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Wed 29 Feb, 2012 02:19 am
@vikorr,
OK. A friend of mine used to say that laffing is a healthy energy.





David
Procrustes
 
  1  
Wed 29 Feb, 2012 02:25 am
@OmSigDAVID,
I would of thought "laffing" was spelled "laughing" but then I found this...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laffing_Sal
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Wed 29 Feb, 2012 02:34 am
@Procrustes,
Procrustes wrote:
I would of thought "laffing" was spelled "laughing" but then I found this...http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laffing_Sal
Does THAT author have better authority to mint a spelling than I do??????????


( Incidentally, in earlier centuries, closer to the Germanic origins of English,
it "WAS" spelled that way. I am trying to join a fonetic rebellion, in support of sound logic.)





David
0 Replies
 
izzythepush
 
  -2  
Wed 29 Feb, 2012 05:04 am
@OmSigDAVID,
OmSigDAVID wrote:

vikorr wrote:
Psst David - laffing phonetically would be 'Larfing' or 'Lahfing'
Pssst Vikorr: it woud NOT. No.
There is no r in laffing.


Oh yes there is, there's loads. There's no g. It's pronounced 'larrrrfin.' Your Devonshire ancestors would be turning in their graves to hear you sounding like a Yorkshire puddin. They would pronounce it lahhhrrrrrrf'n.
0 Replies
 
 

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