Can life have meaning if your dreams are unattainable?

Because you are weak..

What you are strong at is work.

What you are weak at is loving yourself, therefore no one can love you.

You attack those that attack you, ignore those "nice people" that offer thoughts...

You truly hate women...............for what ? Your own chosen mistake of the women you chose? Think.

Yes, Msolga wasting my time but time is valuable, mine is, but you know what woman has power over a man? A man whom lets her have it.

In my experience it can work either way, FS.
Depending on the two people involved, of course.
Best type of relationship, I think: is when neither is consciously attempting to exercise power over the other. Just mature enough to know who the other is & accept it.
I really dislike power plays!
In all sorts of social situations ... but especially in very intimate relationships.
Kiss of death, eventually, I think.

I've dealt with it all my life.. I agree.

In my relationship we agreed to equality at the inset and nothing has changed nearly 3 years later.

Age? Maybe...

I remember my youth though...

Yep, a certain degree of wisdom about such things comes with age & experience, I agree.

You learn to take responsibility for your own part in things that went wrong ... or gracefully accept your own part in things that went right, even!

If you've actually taken the time to stop & digest & comprehend your own experience, that is.

By "you", I don't necessarily mean you or anything you said in your post, OK?

I am talking in general terms.

But that's precisely what MichaelJ does not do.

Forgetting his relationships with women, does he understand how he sabotaged his previous therapy relationships with the same sort of intellectualized bullshit he's putting forth in this thread? This man doesn't want to look at himself--how he thinks, how he feels, how he reacts, and how those things create problems for him. Even if he consults another therapist, if he repeats the same patterns, he'll wind up with similarly unsatisfying results. Not only does he have no insight, he actively fends off any attempts to get him to look at himself, or his part in creating his own problems, or the very significant distortions in his thinking.

Given how MichaelJ twists what people have said to him here to justify continuing his rants about women, it is apparent that there are systematic distortions in his thinking. That he overgeneralizes and stereotypes is quite clear, but he also engages in selective perception--he only sees and hears what he wants to hear and see, and that has to effect how he functions in relationships, particularly the two relationships with women he's told us about. It would also affect what he chooses to tell us about those relationships--mainly that he was clueless victim of these "evil women" who did him wrong.

In his first relationship, which went on for more that 6+ years, and was allegedly moving toward marriage, his fiancée wound up sleeping with someone else. According to MichaelJ, he "wasted a decade of my life" with this woman. Well, if those 10 years were "a waste", he shouldn't have been in the relationship at all--either the relationship was satisfying his needs during that time, or it wasn't, regardless of how it turned out in the end. But MichaelJ distorts his view of the entire relationship because of how it ended.

Infidelity can occur in a relationship, particularly in a long-term relationship, for many reasons, and it is not always a fatal blow to a relationship. MichaelJ's reaction to it was what guaranteed it would be a fatal blow--and he's told us that. And, on top of that, he's angry because he sees woman as having more options for infidelity than he does because he thinks they can attract sex partners more easily than he can. So his alleged fidelity is also based on what he feels is an externally imposed celibacy, rather than a real commitment to a single partner, even in the face of other temptations to stray.

We have no idea why MichaelJ's fiancée chose to sleep with someone else, but neither does he. And we have no idea whether she was just bored, and this sexual dalliance was emotionally meaningless to her, and no real threat to her feelings for MichaelJ, or whether the relationship with MichaelJ had run its course, she no longer wanted to marry him, and she wanted out--and he doesn't seem to know these things either. All we hear about is how this woman "robbed" him of a decade of his life. How a relationship ends does not obliterate all positives that it contained or render the relationship meaningless--except in MichaelJ's extremely distorted all or nothing black/white pattern of thought.

In his second relationship, which took place 6 years after the first, with little or no dating in-between, he developed a friendship with a woman who clearly was trying to boost his ego and self esteem--something a good friend tries to do. They moved in together, not because of romantic attachment, but as a rent sharing arrangement. She had broken up with a boyfriend, but she still had her own social life, with her own friends, and, if I've understood MichaelJ correctly, she still had her own bedroom in the house they shared. Because she took the initiative, it turned into a "friends with benefits" arrangement with sex thrown in.

From what MichaelJ has said, the woman continued to care about him as a friend but she never entered into any sort of committed relationship with him, regardless of whatever conversations they might have had regarding future children, nor had he proposed to her, popped a ring on her finger, and actually made plans for a wedding on a specific date. And, even in this friendship/relationship, his lack of social poise was a problem when they had Thanksgiving dinner at her parents' house, and he tells us that his lack of money was also a problem in the relationship. MichaelJ, of course, makes excuses for those types of problems, rather than seeing them as issues he should address, because they affect his general ability to function well in life.

After a few months, this woman appears to have reacted to MichaeJ's making more of this relationship than was actually going on on her end, and she wanted to move out. She may have worked out things with her previous boyfriend, or maybe she just felt MichaelJ's feelings were getting out of hand--which was why she couldn't even continue to have a friendship with him without his interfering with her life--and she just wanted to end it. She paid off her part of the lease and moved out.

How did MichaelJ react to all of this? Well, that's the rant about women we've been listening to. According to him, he was deceived, abused, and used by this woman. That's not how I see it. Whatever "using" was going on was mutual, and I think MichaelJ was deceived by his owns needs and feelings--and by his selective perception of what was going on--more than anything else. This woman didn't need to deceive him, she had no motive to deceive him--she was paying her own way in the living arrangement, they both wanted the companionship, and they both wanted the sex. Then he wanted more than that, she didn't, and she left.

So, this woman he once valued as a friend, and as a romantic attachment, has now become an "evil devil", a slut, and indicative of the sociopathic liars he sees all women as being. And this is proof positive that he cannot ever have a good relationship with a woman. It's all black/white for him, and it all serves to confirm his pre-existing warped thinking and his defensiveness, and it's all quite distorted thinking. Not that he can even view this relationship with any degree of objectivity, even in hindsight. Not that he can even see what problems of his own he might have to work on in the future.. Not that he distorts...much.

MichaelJ will refute everything said here and he's going to go on drinking too much much and staying mired just where he is. That's what he wants to do--no matter how miserable his current situation makes him feel. He'll go on working at a job that doesn't pay enough, or even give him medical insurance, and that has no long range prospects for a better standard of living for himself, because it's a "fun job". Well, that's his choice. Most people might get a second job, or look for something else they also enjoy that pays better, but MichaelJ will stay put and will consequently consign himself to a lifetime of financial difficulties. Similarly, he'll blame his interpersonal difficulties on "women" or "society", or even on the phases of the moon, and never take a look at his very real emotional problems, his social difficulties, and his rigid and distorted perceptions and thinking, and he'll never actually become motivated to correct those problems within himself to make his own life better--he'll just go on externalizing blame.

It's rather sad that someone would choose to create such a self-fulfilling prophecy for himself. But it is his choice, it is his life. If that's what he wants to do, he can do that.

And trying to convince him otherwise is a waste of time. Either he'll have a flash of insight or he won't.

"Best type of relationship, I think: is when neither is consciously attempting to exercise power over the other. Just mature enough to know who the other is & accept it.
I really dislike power plays!"

I agree.

Like I said earlier on. Mary Poppins said flat out that she HAD to have control in ALL her relationships. This is part of why I make such a big deal out of the mind gaming of women. I really think game playing is sick thinking...

You're partially right about my fiance.

I was actually talking to my sister about this yesterday. My fiance went to school with and worked with my sister. They were close friends. That's how we met. They got along great until about a year or so before she cheated on me. My sister was repeatedly telling me during that time that my fiance had changed. My sister began to develop an INTENSE dislike for her during this time. In fact none of my friends liked her. And my fiance didn't like me hanging out with my friends much. I got into a lot of fights with them defending her, but really if she'd had it her way I should've cut them out of my life completely. I was blinded for sure to her personality change. I loved her. I wanted it to work. If I did notice things awry (and I honestly can't think of anything other than what my sister/friends had to say) , my attitude was "let's work through this. I love you".

Our relationship DID satisfy my needs during first few years. When I was chatting with my sister, she even said "Mike, I know ___ really loved you." It's weird for me to hear that because I think I agree. I think she really did love me for a time. But looking at these two relationships side by side gives me a strange feeling because I know my fiance loved me, and I THINK Mary didn't love me. But even though I truly did love my fiance, it doesn't come anywhere close to how much I loved Mary. My fiance was somebody I chased after immediately when we met. She was never my friend first, and throughout our relationship (even though we did become friends) she was always my girlfriend first. In retrospect I don't ever want that kind of thing again. I want a friendship. A thing where us getting along and having fun is 1st priority, and sex and all that other stuff is second (although still important).

So you're right. I do fail to recognize good aspects of the relationship with my fiance. I had some times that enriched my life greatly because I met her.

I strongly disagree with this statement however:

"Infidelity can occur in a relationship, particularly in a long-term relationship, for many reasons, and it is not always a fatal blow to a relationship. MichaelJ's reaction to it was what guaranteed it would be a fatal blow--and he's told us that. And, on top of that, he's angry because he sees woman as having more options for infidelity than he does because he thinks they can attract sex partners more easily than he can. So his alleged fidelity is also based on what he feels is an externally imposed celibacy, rather than a real commitment to a single partner, even in the face of other temptations to stray. "

How could that not be a fatal blow? My best friend was dying. And I didn't have any choice in reconciliation, I didn't get to have a reaction other than my immediate reaction when I found them together that night, which I think was understandable given the situation. After that night she refused to speak to me. That was the last time I ever saw her. I had to bury my best friend (who was also a friend of hers), and I didn't have my woman there. I didn't have that shoulder to cry on. I didn't have that support when I needed it so badly! I wanted her there! I tried to talk to her! She refused!

I was most definitely committed to her! It wasn't just because I didn't have options! In fact, I did have options! I CHOSE to stay with her. I wanted us to work! I can think of two instances specifically where I had a for sure option of cheating on her, with little to zero chance of her finding out and I PASSED ON THEM!

I loved her firefly. Why do you constantly belittle my feelings and imply I'm not capable of loving someone?

"We have no idea why MichaelJ's fiancée chose to sleep with someone else, but neither does he. And we have no idea whether she was just bored, and this sexual dalliance was emotionally meaningless to her, and no real threat to her feelings for MichaelJ, or whether the relationship with MichaelJ had run its course, she no longer wanted to marry him, and she wanted out--and he doesn't seem to know these things either"

I do know these things actually. Just like Mary Poppins, my fiance MARRIED the next guy after me, the guy she cheated on me with. Do you understand now why what Mary did is causing me so much hurt? I'd be willing to bet good money my fiance had been sleeping with him for awhile. Do you understand how much that makes my skin crawl??? To know that she was with him and then with me. That she touched me after being with him, and that this was probably going on for quite awhile???

Infidelity is a fatal blow to a relationship in my view. There's that saying, "once a cheater, always a cheater." I can't believe you would condone and defend infidelity. If I had been the one who cheated (or any other man), would you view it the same way? It's a violation of trust. After that you never know what to believe in regards to that person.

If she loved someone else (just like Mary), she should've been honest and broken it off with me before it came to cheating. I won't let you justify doing that to someone. It's not right and it goes against what you've said all along about considering how the other person in the relationship feels. There's no reason why people can't end one relationship before they move onto another one. It's extremely selfish, and evil to continue two just because for whatever reason it's easier than just being honest. For you to attempt to justify cheating doesn't do much for your credibility.

firefly, if you gave even an inch of credit for the relationship between Mary and I being a real one and didn't belittle it AND belittle both my and her feelings about it; maybe then I might give more consideration to what you say.

I think it's really shitty of you to imply that I didn't love her and she didn't love me. You weren't there.

"he developed a friendship with a woman who clearly was trying to boost his ego and self esteem--something a good friend tries to do."

It was MUTUAL. I helped her out with many things in her personal life too. Because she had so many problems with Jack, she would constantly ask for advice. But you're right, she WAS a good friend (at the time). One of the best friends I've ever had in my life. That's why what she did hurt so, so much. A real friend wouldn't deceive like that. I mourn the loss of friendship more than the loss of the relationship. We made each other laugh. I wanted that to continue for the rest of our lives. That was way more important than anything else.

It was never made clear on her part that it was "friends with benefits". In fact she gave every indication it was much more than that. The first I knew she liked me, she used the words "Mike, I think I'm in love with you." And she hadn't just broken up with her boyfriend, it had been awhile, probably the first and only time she'd ever been single for more than a month in her life. I tried to tell her it would be good for her to be herself for awhile without being so and so's girlfriend. I tried to tell her that if she spent some time alone, she might discover things about herself that she didn't know.

"From what MichaelJ has said, the woman continued to care about him as a friend but she never entered into any sort of committed relationship with him, "

She introduced me to everyone as "This is my boyfriend Mike". In fact she would talk me up to people. That's how I got to meet all her other close friends. They'd approach me and tell me that Mary talked about me a lot.

"nor had he proposed to her, popped a ring on her finger, and actually made plans for a wedding on a specific date"

So unless you propose to girl and set a specific date you're not in a REAL relationship with her??? So nobody who's dating and not engaged has REAL feelings and those relationships are all so casual that's it's completely OK for one person to continue it under false pretenses?

That's your logic??? Really?

" She may have worked out things with her previous boyfriend"

The guy she ran off with was someone completely new, not Jack, not an old boyfriend. And with this completely new person who was older than me (so that would make him more than 9 years older than her), and who apparently has a lot of money, she got engaged all in about 7 months time.

"This woman didn't need to deceive him, she had no motive to deceive him"

Mary knew everything about my past. She knew I was scared of trusting women. She knew about my fiance. She put everything she possibly could into convincing me she wasn't like that. A friend with benifits doesn't go on and on about how much they LOVE you, and how you've made them feel a way the didn't think possible.

She most definitely used me. I honestly think what happened is that she was attracted to me when we first met. She made several comments about things like the way I look, ect over the year or so that our friendship was building. She KNEW I wasn't at all looking for casual sex/a friend with benefits. She KNEW the only way anything was going to happen between us is if she'd "pretend" it was going to be more than just sex. That's really wrong. That's horrible. Because of that, I'm absolutely justified in calling her a slut.

"So, this woman he once valued as a friend, and as a romantic attachment, has now become an "evil devil", a slut, and indicative of the sociopathic liars he sees all women as being. "

Well even by Mary's own admittance she'd been with a lot of men. Besides Jack, I know another one of her ex-boyfriends personally. (Remember I told you she'd cheated on everyone she'd ever dated except for myself and Jack). She hurt this guy bad, and I think she knew it, but to her it was justified because she met somebody else because of it. That's warped thinking. It's one thing if a relationship needs to end, but you shouldn't be careless with people's feelings. People deserve to be treated with dignity and respect. Using people isn't right.

And I most certainly did NOT use Mary. What was I using her for??? What could I possibly get out of that? Every bone in my body wants a LASTING relationship, not a tryst! I loved her very, very much!

I have videos and pictures we took together in bed. If I was the vindictive user you claim me to be, I would've put those up on the web somewhere her family could see to embarrass and hurt her. In fact there are several other vindictive things I could've done if I indeed was just using her and didn't care about her as a person. She left some old photo albums at our place when she moved. I could've burned them just to be an asshole. Instead, when I found them, I made sure they made their way back to her. I owed her $150 when she moved out, I could've said **** it, but instead I made sure I payed her back.

Give me some credit firefly!!! MAYBE I'm wrong about women in general, but I wasn't wrong about Mary. I know her too well.

You further justify any wrongdoing on women's part as acceptable.

This gives no credit to your case, and does nothing to persuade me that women aren't evil.

Maybe I'm wrong about women in general, but no one will ever get through to me if they use the selfish actions of those two and try to spin them into something that's perfectly acceptable!

You're right, MichaelJ, women are evil, and you should be glad you're not involved with one.

Glad to call your bullshit.

Hi Msgola / Foundsoul / Firefly

I think that Michael has a few issues, which are integral to his state of failure, his misery, and his arguments.

- He is driven by an overpowering fear (which doesn't mean it can't be overcome), and probably from emotional issues from childhood
- he refuses to take responsibility for his life (I'm guessing he's driven to not take responsibility because of the fear)
- he desperately needs to see himself as a victim (again, likely driven by that fear)
- he desperately needs to have someone (in this case, especially women) and something (genetics, lack of talent, anything that comes to mind)
- he refuses to acknowledge any positive (fully acknowledging the positives would eventually shatter his lies that enable him to view himself as a victim)
- he is very cowardly
- he is very lazy (dressing this up as he doesn't give a ****, even though he desperately does)


This whole thread is a dedication on his part as to why his life is everyone esles <especially womens> fault)

He knows a plethora of things that he could do that would greatly enhance his his chances of success, but refuses to do so.

Take my last post to him :



If you have a look at each of his replies he automatically takes the negative. :
- He doesn't get out of it that he can learn skills
- He doesn't get out of it that smoothness isn't about lying - but about learning about people, learning about language, and using care, fun, assertivess, respect to woo women...as well as to do better in business, to do better in conflict, to do better in negotions, to do better socially...and to do better in life
- he thinks being a seducer is about lying to women to sleep with them (it can be)...unable to see the positive side - that seduction is a natural lead up to sex (even with just the one woman for the rest of your life)
- He thinks he's interesting...great...but completely ignores that the list was talking about intimate relationships, and the chance of finding the woman of his dreams...he ignores that he could LEARN to be more interesting in that way (and he'd complain anyway that he shouldn't have to)
- He complains he isn't lazy, but makes every excuse under the sun why he shouldn't try, and shouldn't learn
- He complains that life isn't a popularity contest (it isn't)...ignoring that if he learns to be more popular with the girls, he increases his chances of finding Mrs Right.
- Lastly he complains that he prefers REAL people...completely ignoring that the suggested skills can be learned while being completely genuine (ie real)...and completely ignoring the vast plethora of lies he weaves around himself, making him one of the least real people I've ever come across.

Despite Michaels protestations to be seeking help - I notice he only becomes 'reasonable' once it becomes clear that people no longer wish to talk with him...after you start again, the unreasonableness quickly resurfaces.


The amount of twisting he's engaged in, the amount of 'negative perspective only' he's engaged in...the amount of sheer ignoring any good suggestion and focusing on small parts of large posts because it is THERE that he perceives a negative that he can attack and latch on to...

I think he has enough information here to start helping himself, should he choose to do so.

it may be that he has other agendas, or that his fears drive him, or that he is just too cowardly to face...I don't know precisely, but he doesn't need further 'help' from here (and I don't think he is really seeking that here).

His best place to start improving his life is to take responsibility for his life (which also involves stopping lying to himself)

Other than that last above paragraph, I don' see that anything else needs be said to Michael (the rest being rather pointless at this stage). He is able to help himself...by taking responsibility & ceasing lying to himself.

Hi Vikorr...


Maybe she was always a gold digger, ever thought it's not me, it's you ?

No you're right. I'm cowardly and haven't ever tried to help myself. Also, there are no sluts at all in the world. Every woman is a wholesome as a shinny red apple.

If you weren't cowardly - you would face your fears. If you weren't cowardly you wouldn't have given up on something you desired, no matter how many failures you had.. If you weren't cowardly you wouldn't blame others for your life.

It has always been cowardice to do not face your fears, to blame others, to give up on something you really want when it is within your power to attain it...no matter who gives in to fear- you, me, anyone.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oan3D2WwWro

Y'know, I could've just lied and said I was paralyzed or something. I wanted advice on how to cope and find meaning in life because my dreams are unattainable. I figured I'd be honest. My whole life I've been too honest.

Maybe I should've created a story about being parlayed, maybe then I'd have gotten different advice.

If my problems with women really are something I have control over, I doubt I'd have the physical symptoms I have.

I didn't want to give up, and if you look at those two, I didn't give up on them. They gave up on me.

" give up on something you really want when it is within your power to attain it"

I don't believe it's within my power. When all evidence says otherwise, I don't know how to believe that. I can't just look at a red pen and believe it's blue.

I'm not even bothered to look at it. There's not really anything to talk about anymore Michael. Take responsibility, face your fears, stop lying to yourself, acknowledge the positive, and improve yourself.

You've lied to yourself through almost every single post you've made. You been constantly lying...probably because your whole world is built on lies to yourself. Many examples have been given you.

Genuinely seeking help = you also helping yourself. you make endless excuses, and as such, you aren't genuinely seeking help.

This is going around in circles, and I don't desire to be part of it.

Take responsibility for yourself, stop lying to yourself, and start growing.

I told you this

"I was at a work party last night. There were quite a few attractive women there. I couldn't have been in a more positive and engaging mood. I dare say I even got a few good belly laughs out people. But I still had no chance whatsoever with any of those women. Despite the fact that SEVERAL of them share many things in common with me (Some were even near my age! Oh my God!), and I'm able to carry on good banter with most of them . "

So it's evident that even with an attitude change and positive circumstances women are impossible.

Women are impossible, women are evil devils. Bottom line.

End of story.

And hopefully the end of this thread, too.

You are becoming very repetitive.

If you don't like it pussy cat, quit reading and quit responding.

Go burn your bra somewhere.