Can life have meaning if your dreams are unattainable?

As I've previously said Izzy - Michael is using his posts now to generate attacks on him, so that he can justify his lies to himself. I would not bother responding to any of his posts, unless he shows a desire to understand and change his situation in life.

Have a look at Michaels tactics - Do you notice he has perhaps never acknowledged any positive in life (on these forums) - not doing so is through and through self deception, and a rabdily purposeful tactic to keep his warped beliefs intact...for whatever reason it is that motivates him. As far as I can see, the only way past would be to identify & understand his motivation and deal with that first.

He desperately wants to justify his unbalanced views. He will ignore any truth contrary to his views, and skew any negative to make it back up (in his own mind) his warped attitudes/beliefs/views. He knows this keeps him in a state of depression, but believes that "believing the bullshit so that I can stay depressed"...is better than the alternative (that motivating factor again)

He could change for the better, but he does not want to pay the price that would allow him to achieve happiness (because of that motivating factor again).

So in order to maintain his minimum of effort in life, he must put extraordinary effort into keeping himself believing that he is powerless to grow or change or make something of his life (which is ironic). Whatever legitimate arguments you make, he will warp or simply ignore...and focus on the negative (driven as he is by that motivating factor).

In the face of that motivating factor - you can make a negative out of any 'difference' between the sexes (or any difference between races, or cultures)- and that travels both ways. So you can't 'win' an argument with Michaels warped mind while he's motivated to uphold his negative belief system.

As a personal opinion, I believe it likely that Michael is dealing with what he currently finds to be an overwhelming fear/number of fears/system of fears...but the exact nature of the fear will be found in Michaels mind alone.

(I figured I'd express pretty much the same thing in numerous ways)

So as I said previously - I would not bother responding to Michael while he shows no willingness to understand - or in another way - is so motivated to ignore positives & focus on negatives.

(the actual motivating factor/s - that should be dealt with by a professional)

The one thing I will suggest to you Michael (and this is in no way re-entering into any sort of debate with you back on this thread) - I'd suggest if you do choose to see a professional Michael - print out this entire thread and show it to them.

After giving this matter a great deal of thought, here's what I've decided:

A woman who was one of my best friends spent a great deal of time trying to convince me that woman don't only go for guys with money, that not all women are selfish, and that "regular" guys CAN actually get the girl.

She then proceeded to act in ways that discredited everything she said and proved my prior beliefs about women to be true.

Now as bad as that may be, I've actually taken something important away from it. Firefly and vikkor, you are right!!! There is absolutely no reason I can't improve myself!!!!!

I have some AWESOME friends in my life, and a fun job that I dig. There's no reason I should let women ruin those other parts of my life for me. I'm going to work on my attitude around both my friends and co-workers. I may be depressed, but I won't ever let them know. And because of that nature vs. nurture stuff, I'm already pre-programmed as a male to be stoic! I mean it will suck being fake sometimes, but that's part of the burden of being a man. My friends are important to me, I love them and if pretending to be happy will enrich their lives and allow me to spend more time with them so be it.

I'm sure I'll continue to drink and eventually become an alcoholic, but eh ...I'm more outgoing when I drink anyway. And I'm sure I'll eventually kill myself sometime before I turn forty. I mean my dream is still an impossibility, and I am after all DEAD ON right about women, but I can still leave people I know with good memories of me.

Just because women are devils doesn't mean I should become an ugly person myself. It will be hard to fight against the natural depression associated with knowing that part of my life is over forever and my goal is unattainable, but I bet I can squeeze out a few good years for my friends and family before it completely takes me under and I self destruct. I owe people some good laughs and good times. I don't ever forget good things people do for me, and I've been blessed with good people. It's up to me to reciprocate those blessings.

I'm confused .....what is my "motivating factor"?

"As a personal opinion, I believe it likely that Michael is dealing with what he currently finds to be an overwhelming fear/number of fears/system of fears...but the exact nature of the fear will be found in Michaels mind alone."

Oh, you are totally right! I'm not being sarcastic, I fear failure! I tried very, very hard to work past that fear with someone who was a very close friend of mine. That person betrayed my trusts, and it reinforced those fears. It took me six full years to try to trust again. Six full years before I took a chance on a close friend of mine who did everything in her power to convince me that she loved me. It's a powerfully negative force I face now after what happened. Fear of failure, how could I ever overcome that? I already know what the outcome of trusting women is...

"Do you notice he has perhaps never acknowledged any positive in life (on these forums)"

I actually didn't see there was a new page added onto this thread until AFTER I posted the post I posted right before this one. If you read that I hope you'll see that I DO acknowledge positives in life.

I am truly lucky for the good things that have touched my life. Mostly the laughs. I think the funny parts of life are the best. I'm very grateful for every moment I've spent with both my friends and family.

Well, at least you are being somewhat reasonable this time around.

That's not accurate (as different to incorrect) - for you train yourself to have attitudes, belief systems, emotions, and a lack of skills that inevitably result in failure. If failure was the only thing you feared - why then would you train yourself to fail?

One of the problems is that you refuse to accept responsibility for your life or for who you are...but why do you refuse to do so? Accepting responsibility for who you are is the foundation of all personal growth.

Correctly stated - you already know what the outcome of trusting those two women was.


Like when you said you loved women (and I posted a list of quotes from you where you showed hate for women)...here I could post a list probably several times longer than that list showing the positives you ignored.

And here too, I could compile a very long list of quotes where you show little to no gratefulness.

It appears to me that you manipulate your own mind to convince yourself of things that simply aren't true..and then try to manipulate other people into believing the same things.

You are very motivated to deceive yourself, and very motivated to ignore the positives in life. Whatever the motivating factors - they lead you to train yourself to achieve failure, misery, and depression.

As I said in my last post - you should print this thread out and go and see a professional to identify & understand your fears, and give you a path past them.

"One of the problems is that you refuse to accept responsibility for your life or for who you are...but why do you refuse to do so? Accepting responsibility for who you are is the foundation of all personal growth."

I accept FULL responsibility for my shortcomings. I do see that because I feel depressed because of the evil of women, I use that as an excuse not to try harder in other areas of life.

Do you understand? I'm agreeing with you. I do think I shortchange myself because I think "Wow, no matter what I do it'll never be good enough for women. So what's the point of trying to be good at anything at all?" I see where that thinking causes other non-women related areas of my life to suffer.

That being said, I know that the women thing is a pretty big part of life. It certainly is for me because my dream was to get married and be a dad. It's going to be very hard to rise above the sadness of never being able to live that goal out. I think that's my real problem. I don't know how to keep my spirits up in the face of that. I know that even with the best intentions I will stumble, and that eventually one day I will be 39 or something and I will just have to call it a day.

A dream is a dream. It's different for everybody. But it's what's inside of you that keeps you going. In the absence of hope for that you can try other things all you want ...you're still eventually going to feel hopelessness.

"Quote:
I already know what the outcome of trusting women is...

Correctly stated - you already know what the outcome of trusting those two women was."

That last woman did a whole lot of damage to any respect I could ever have again for the female gender as a whole. To have her be so adamant that women aren't superficial, selfish, ect, and then for her to turn around and do those EXACT things she swore to me that 'not all women do', that's a pretty heavy thing to swallow.

I think one thing constructive I can do is to fight against feminism. It's something I feel strongly about, and it's probably something I could take a great deal of satisfaction in. I love putting sounds and images together, and for years now I've had an image of a middle finger being shoved in Oprah's face to the tune of an angry punk rock song. Maybe that can be my personal battle call.

"Like when you said you loved women (and I posted a list of quotes from you where you showed hate for women)...here I could post a list probably several times longer than that list showing the positives you ignored."

Like I've said a hundred times, life is grey NOT black and white. It's possible to both love and hate something or someone. You people don't see me in my real life. My problems that I've addressed in this thread don't necessitate talking about positives in my life, but that doesn't mean they aren't there.

I wouldn't trade in the good things I HAVE experienced in life for anything. All I'm saying is that knowing that I can't ever be a husband or father is a heavy thing. It's obscures those other positive things sometimes. I mean it's not like my dream is to play in the NBA or something. My dream is something that a LARGE percentage of the worlds population is able to do. It's very, very hard to remain positive in the shadow of that. I know I need to just fake it for those awesome people I know that deserve a functioning Michael, but it will be very, very hard.

Maybe there could be some sort of change in societal attitudes some day. Maybe someday there will better support systems in place for men so that they don't have to just shut up and suffer through things.

Who knows, maybe there will even be an equivalent of Oprah for men someday. Someone who addresses men's issues with empathy instead of just comedy.

One can only hope...

No – you are not agreeing with me. Straight after claiming you accept full responsibility you said :
This is foisting responsibility for your life onto someone else. You are entirely responsible for your own depression. Others contributed to the way you thought – and you are entirely responsible for the way you thought - your interpretations, your own formation of your attitudes, your beliefs etc and the giving up to fear that keeps you depressed.

Your entire thread is a dedication to why you are not responsible for your own life (accepting responsibility for your life, by the way, goes beyond mere words, to also taking responsibility for making it better)

You do not currently accept responsibility for your own life...but when you eventually do - then you will be able to start climbing out of the mire pit that your mind is currently stuck in.

A truth, dressed up to sound like you know what it means.

In your 'truth' - Grey is formed from the blacks and whites – in the context of what you replied to - the positives & the negatives. All you have been giving in this thread is the negative / black...and completely ignoring the positive. You haven't acknowledged any grey in your life.


I disagree – your problems ABSOLUTELY necessitate that you talk about the positives in your inner life and in social life. That is one thing that has been constantly talked about throughout this thread. It is one of the major reasons you are depressed – failure to acknowledge & appreciate the positives.

It is THE major reason people have attacked you in this thread. As I said, every action (or in this case words/attitudes) has consequences.

"It is THE major reason people have attacked you in this thread. As I said, every action (or in this case words/attitudes) has consequences."

Obviously I disagree. The major reason people have attacked me is because I've expressed an unpopular opinion about women.

If not talking about positives rubs people the wrong way I understand. I'm in no way ungrateful for things like my friends and family, or being able to walk and talk and breath on my own.

There are positive things in life. I have a hard time seeing those positive things. I'd like to be able to better recognize those positives and enjoy them. But there will always be that huge negative thing called the female gender. I can only control my reactions to things, it's true. But that doesn't change the fact that I'm forced to live in a society with these devils who wield this oppressive control over men's genetic imprints, hopes and dreams.

This is highly misleading - your 'opinion' is unpopular, but that is not why you are attacked. It is because of the reasons that you formed your opinion - motivated by wilful blindness & hate that refuses to listen to any positive (blind hate can't exist in the presence of acknowledgement & appreciate of the positives of the thing you blindly hate). You will, in the wider world, always be attacked for expressing such repulsively blind hate - no matter the subject matter (I'm sure you understand the implications of that).

Here, it took a lot longer before people before truly repulsed by such constant blind hate / poor me victim mentallity etc, because of the nature of the forums, and the nature of the people who visit here regularly.

It's not the 'not talking about the positives' that is the problem...it's the lack of acknowledgement and appreciation of the positives. It's the blind hate. It's the self pity. It's the 'poor me, I'm a victim' mentallity. It's the blame you foist onto everyone bar yourself. It's the endless lies you tell to yourself....there are a plethora of ways to say it.

As I said earlier - everytime you find yourself thinking a negative, stop, acknowledge, and then compile a list of the positives before moving on. Now there's obviously a negative to this suggestion (if you're talking to someone then that is difficult to do)...what then are the list of positives that you can think of?

Our subconscious doesn't work in negatives (our conscious does). When you find yourself doing this, you can try to rephrase that to things like 'I am grateful for my friends, my family, and being able to walk & breathe on my own'


Women are not devils - stop deceiving yourself. Do you understand the power of negative labels, and the lie implicit in them? In calling them devils, you fail to acknowledge any good in them, and in using such a label, you blind yourself to so much good. Here, you also focus on an external blame for your life (if you didn't need someone to blame, you wouldn't need to call them devils)...trying to abbrogate responsibility for your own life (or diminish it - after all, how can you fight an army of devils...it's not your fault if you can't beat an army of evil devils - that sort of idiotic thinking).

Women do not wield an oppressive control over men - the only oppressive control that occurrs, generates in your imagination.That doesn't mean that there aren't legitimate biological differences, but that the oppressive control exists only in your mind . And again, in calling it oppressive control, you attempt to absolve yourself of responsibility (or significantly diminish it). The biological differences by the way - are not something I am going to debate with you - it's been done to death.

Now, as I said earlier...you have enough information in this thread to make a start. You still need to work on diminishing your fears, and strengthening your self-assurances (the opposite of fear). You need to stop making excuses (this is a real biggy, because of the incredible number of excuses you've made for your life...and because as long as you make excuses, you aren't taking responsibility). And you need to start finding positives. And most of all you need to start doing...and doing...and doing (while at the same time, seeking understanding).

Maybe one day many, many years from now because of evolution; if enough men recognize the evil manipulation of womankind they could learn to control the biological things inside of them that give women power, turn the tables, and gain an equal amount of control as women have. Maybe someday many, many generations from now, a young man will have just as many choices as women do.

That would be a better tomorrow.

That would be a beautiful world.

This world already exists. You choose not to see it.

It exists in a counterbalancing way. Women have strengths & weaknesses, men have strengths & weakness. Neither are greater than the other.

That's biology for you.

But your warped views would have you believe otherwise, so that you can absolve yourself of responsibility for your dreams (which are absolutely attainable - you made the choice to stop pursuing them)

"Women do not wield an oppressive control over men - the only oppressive control that occurrs, generates in your imagination.That doesn't mean that there aren't legitimate biological differences, but that the oppressive control exists only in your mind ."

"It exists in a counterbalancing way. Women have strengths & weaknesses, men have strengths & weakness. Neither are greater than the other."

Men have a stronger biological drive to mate than women, and women have all the vaginas!

There is no balance whatsoever in that equation sir.

Maybe someday men will have as much hope as women do. But all of us reading this thread will be long gone by then...

I did say I won't engage you in your biological drivel - and I won't. As I pointed out earlier - there are negatives & positives, and no one will ever 'win' an argument with you on that score, because you choose to view it that way, and that's that.

What I will say is :

No woman on earth can stop you from :

- approaching women (men do this ALL the time)
- asking women out (oddly, men also do this ALL the time)
- meeting women (ditto)
- making yourself more attractive to them (don't complain - they do this all the time for us)
- learning humour
- building your self esteem / self-assurance
- becoming successful
- learning new skills
- learning magic tricks
- taking up a hobby
- learning to dance
- exercising
- finding passions in your life
- doing volunteer work
- finding positives in everything
- facing life with a great attitude
- finding humour in everything
- the list goes on...

Everything on that list makes you more attractive to the opposite sex, and almost everything on that list can be done done purely for yourself. That you haven't engaged in any of them is completely your responsibility.

Your dream of marriage & a child is still entirely attainable, but you choose not to pursue anything to enhance your prospects of success, and do everything you can to sabotage your chances of success.

And then you blame others for what is entirely your own responsibility.

The very vast majority of men find someone they can love, marry and have a child with - so these protestations of yours proves themselves false in the greater scheme of things. Other people uglier than you, and with greater disabilities than you manage to find love (yes, even paralympians can find love, believe it or not), and prove the falsehood of your victim mentallity.

That you choose not to compete is your choice (and your responsibility - not womens), that you haven't attracted a mate & had a child is your responsibility (not womens), and that you don't do anything to improve your chances is your responsibility (not womens), and that you do everything you can to sabotage your chances is your responsibility (not womens).

When it all comes down to it - your dream is only not attainable because you choose not to pursue it. It is attained by so many men that your beliefs are collapse under the weight of examples that every person in the world sees every day.

Now, you are jumping back into your pit of lies, and I will take my own advice, and not respond again unless you show something that exhibits a willingness to genuinely understand and improve yourself.

"When it all comes down to it - your dream is only not attainable because you choose not to pursue it. It is attained by so many men that your beliefs are collapse under the weight of examples that every person in the world sees every day."

It is attained by men who either SETTLE for less so they won't run away, or by men who put up with so much nagging, manipulation, and mind gaming that they spend more time jumping through hoops than being their true selves!

OR it is attained by rich men, or ridiculously smooth men, or a combination of both.

I'll repeat:"Men have a stronger biological drive to mate than women, and women have all the vaginas! There is no balance whatsoever in that equation sir." !!!

But...

Quote:
"no one will ever 'win' an argument with you on that score, because you choose to view it that way, and that's that."

BECAUSE IT'S A FACT! MEN HAVE A STRONGER BIOLOGICAL DRIVE TO MATE AND WOMEN HAVE ALL THE VAGINAS. FACT!

I think succubus is a better description than 'evil devils'...

Let's look at your list for a minute


- approaching women (men do this ALL the time)
- asking women out (oddly, men also do this ALL the time)
- meeting women (ditto)
- making yourself more attractive to them (don't complain - they do this all the time for us)
- learning humour
- building your self esteem / self-assurance
- becoming successful
- learning new skills
- learning magic tricks
- taking up a hobby
- learning to dance
- exercising
- finding passions in your life
- doing volunteer work
- finding positives in everything
- facing life with a great attitude
- finding humour in everything
- the list goes on...


Those are all the things men need to do to attract a mate.


Now here's what women have to do:



- making yourself more attractive to them (don't complain - they do this all the time for us)


Are these two lists equal to each other?

Really vikorr?

...Really?

This is a lie, and quite also quite different to what I said. That you can't see that shows how incredibly warped you choose to allow your mind to be.

What I said is : Everything on that list makes you more attractive to the opposite sex, and almost everything on that list can be done done purely for yourself. That you haven't engaged in any of them is completely your responsibility.

Your list of the things 'women have to do' is also incredibly deceitful (and not in the context I presented the information).

You show no desire to understand - just to ignore & twist. You show no desire to better yourself for yourself (which has an added benefit of making you more attractive to others), and you show no desire to take responsibility for your own life, which leads you down a hateful path - that is entirely your responsibility, and I won't be a part of it.

You seem to be under a misunderstanding about people here - who are here because they have an interest in these fields, and in helping people.

For me, I have no further desire to converse with a rabid liar, a hater, and a person who delights in warping his own mind and wallowing in victimhood - who claims to be seeking help, but lies about that too. It is not that you can't be helped - it's simply that you don't want help.

As I said earlier - you are using these forums to reinforce your false victimhood. I won't be a part of it.

I read this whole thread tonight.

I think you have all given Michael some good advice here, but Michael isn't completely wrong about women. He does takes things to almost comical extremes, but his grievances do have some shreds of truth behind them.

Hi Linus - if you've read the whole thread, then you'll know that I have acknowledged certain things regarding Michaels complaints :

- there are genetic differences between men & women
- those genetic differences result in different strengths & weakness, and different advantages & disadvatages
- those genetic differences also result in differing rules (between the sexes)when it comes to courting & relationships

That should be obvious

What I've said about Michaels view is that :
- he focuses on the disadvantages that men face, and warps them into something evil
- he ignores the advantages men face
- he focuses on womens advantages women face
- he ignores the disadvantages women face

That should be self explanatory.

He puts ALL women into the one category - despite the fact that men & women both, show a huge variety in character & personality, and in what they are attracted to.

He believes his dream is unattainable, despite the fact it is very attainable.

He takes no responsibility for improving himself.

He blames everyone but himself for his lot in life.

As for truth...I doubt you could call much of what michael says as 'truth' while he wilfully blinds himself to the positive half of things. Truth is a whole, not a half. It is because of this (and his deliberate twisting of statements into things not said) that I find myself constantly calling his lies. I won't be a party to his deceitful gameplaying anymore.

Oh but it can be hard for men in their 30's. Especially when you take into account that he's only dated two women. It must be incredibly nerve racking for him to think about presenting himself to women. That's completely understandable.

Also Ms. Poppins sounds like a royal **** bag. I think it's too bad that he's let her selfish actions weigh so heavily on his thought process because she is just one woman. Whatever good is inside him existed before he met her and still does exist. And there must have been some reason she was attracted to him at all in the first place.

And he is right about women being presented as sexual objects, in the media at least. You see twice as many sexy women in the media as you see men. Culture has become too sexualized in general though.

Oh it can be hard - no one disagrees with that. That has never been disputed here. That it would be nerve racking for him has also never been disputed here.