Can life have meaning if your dreams are unattainable?

Jason was funny. This guy isn't.

Right! He's a misogynist of the worst kind, not worth paying attention to.

(not replying to Michael) -

Are you familiar with those couple who go through divorces, and they target their ex in any way they think will get a reaction from them?

If you ask both of them - they will both say - but he/she deserves it, because he/she did this, and this, and this. And in reaction to A's nasty action, B reacts nastily, and in reaction to B's nasty reaction, A reacts nastily?

Both of them think they are justified (no matter how immature they act)...both of them purposefully act in a way designed to result in the other person attacking them...and then they use that attack to justify their attack.

It's all nonense, petty, and immature, but a rather high percentage of people indulge in this sort of behaviour on breakup.

People also use this tactic to reinforce their warped views...which is what Michael has been doing these last 2 pages or so...mounting attacksdesigned to result in others attacking him...

...and while he may argue...he basically is ignoring everything bar the attacks, and using the attacks to justify his views.

Like the pathetic couple who's appalling behaviour is on display for the world - each of them thinks they are justified and the other is wrong, while each of them engages in spiteful behaviour designed to cause a reaction so they can 'justify' their spiteful behaviour. This is little to no different....except that Michaels behaviour is designed to reinforce Michaels views.

I would advise people not to participate in this thread anymore, unless he shows a desire to actually understand, and unless he comes for the purpose he originally stated - to find help.

vikorr,
yes you are right in many ways - especially when trying to help Michael,
and divorced couples do behave in a manner that leaves very little of their
dignity, however, their aggression is mostly directed towards each other
whereas Micheal has progressed from Ms. Poppins to "women in general"
and his language describing women leaves very little doubt in my mind
that his issues with Ms. Poppins per se are issues he has with all women.

I certainly agree with you that it's kind of pointless to participate in his
topic any longer, you and firefly have been more than patient with him
in addition to giving him excellent advice - Kudos to you!

What's the best kind?

Hi Calamity, I don't disagree - if you have another read, you will see that I limited that statement to the last 2 pages of his comments.

That he tends to over-generalize and stereotype entire groups of people may characterize his thinking in general--it's reflective of tendencies toward bigotry and bias, as well as just plain sloppy thinking.

I think they are issues he has with all people, and not just women. Just look at the manner in which he responds to, and interacts with, people in this thread. He has interpersonal problems which are evident even in this sort of internet/social environment. Unfortunately. he doesn't seem to have any insight regarding that, even with the feedback he's been given here, and which I'm sure he's also gotten in his real life.

Thank you for the compliment. We did try. Hopefully, if what we've said to MichaelJ wasn't beneficial to him, perhaps it will be helpful to someone else who reads this thread.

I also think you have given some good advice but I would also like to shift gears a little here without going too far off subject.

I understand his perspective and not to defend him but it is not his fault alone that he has this perspective. Sure he could learn another method but this is not something you can do in one moment. Many people are a product of their society, for example if a person is single and in their 30s or 40s people immediately assume there is something wrong with them. This shows that their is societal pressures to have relationships which also means people often go into relationships under bad circumstances because of this pressure.

So part of his anxiety is actually caused by social pressures to have a relationship with a woman but the woman he has decided is right for him is in fact not. This failure in his mind must make sense and the only way to do that is to generalize that something is not right with him or not right with women in general. That since others have no problem with women then there must be something wrong with him. This is a horrible outcome and leads to further generalizing on his part towards women.

On the flip side the solution also creates another problem. What if you realize that not everyone is cut out to be in a romantic relationship with you? It is a true statement but the result does not sit pretty. It means you will have far more failures than successes. Generally humans don't like failure so this inevitiable truth causes trauma in social environments.

So what happens as a result. Well what some men end up doing is trying to discover methods of attracting women. But why? Because of social pressures and also biological ones. Men are driven biologically to have sex. Sure men can suppress these natural responses but it is a fundamental fact. Some men are driven much harder than others so the difficulty is worse for them if they constantly recieve failures. It also makes their persuit of women superficial since they are driven biologically instead of socially. They then tend to view women as conquorable objects of their sexual desire, which surprisingly enough some women actually like. Other women hate this fact about men.

So what is the best solution. He should move on and consider this a failure, but not of his own doing. It is a failure because what she expects is not what he can provide for her. It does not mean that he can not fulfill that for another woman. He needs to realize that there is someone out there that he suits just fine. The problem is finding it and having the courage to accept that fact. It might be difficult to understand but there are some annomolies in society who don't follow the same social norms or expectations.

I basically agree with your perspective on this, Krumple.

But I think what you're saying about social pressures, as well as biological ones, to become involved in a relationship, applies equally to women in their 30's and 40's, and perhaps even more so to women for a number of reasons. For one thing, women do have a biological clock ticking away regarding their ability to have children, and the sound of that clock gets louder in your 30's. While MichaelJ has said he fears he may never "procreate", and he's aware of his advancing age, the reality is that his ability to do so is not limited by a biological clock--he can "procreate" for decades yet to come. In addition, women in their 30's and 40's often confront a shrinking pool of available men, in part because those who are in their age group and single may choose to be involved with younger women, a preference MichaelJ has also expressed. And, even if there are other singles available, that doesn't mean a particular person will click with any of them and vice versa. So I think there are difficulties both genders may face, particularly beyond a certain age, albeit for different reasons.

MichaelJ really hasn't dated extensively, nor does he seem to have listened to many women talking about their difficulties finding someone to become involved with, where the feeling is mutual, so he erroneously assumes women have a much easier time than men do in finding partners for long term relationships and marriage. I think it can be equally challenging for some people of both genders to find that special someone who also considers them that special someone. Eventually, most do find that person, but they do have to manage those social and biological pressures along the way, and they may have to deal with their own changing expectations as well.

So, while I agree with your perspective on how this affects men, I think what you are saying is equally valid for both genders and really applies to both genders. And I also agree with the advice you are offering about accepting the failure of a particular relationship and moving on.

I have a fundamentally different view on this sort of thing - that is that there are contributing circumstances/influences, and personal responsibility, but not fault.

That is to say - there are many views that Michael held that are not helpful to him, but in a way understandable (including for many of the reasons that you pointed out)...and...he is now an adult and is personally responsible for his own life, and for for who he was, is, and will be. The past does not have to hold a grip on him - he can choose to build who he is in the future - to recognise fears and turn them into strengths, to recognise weaknesses and practice strengthening those areas, to refine his strengths, to find passions, and to create a richness of character.

So true...and my view of this is that we can and should be improving until the day we day.


Yes...the tragedy being that many people use this as an excuse for why their future can't change.

True enough. Often there is something 'wrong' with them, sometimes not. That doesn't mean that you go and blame others for your singleness. Nor does it mean we should abandon our responsibility for our own attractiveness to members of the opposite sex - this can be achieved while being true to ourselves (though that usually mimicked when young, and learnt as one gets older).

The friends in our lives are largely a reflection of our friendliness, fun, warmth, loyalty, compassion etc...our intimate relationships are no different in that they also are a reflection of our traits that are attractive to the opposite sex for relationship purposes.

As we are responsible for who we are, these traits - the ownership and the development of them...those are our responsibility - our responsibility for who we are, for being 'us', and for making 'us' more each day of our lives.

"if a person is single and in their 30s or 40s people immediately assume there is something wrong with them."

Yes!

In fact there's a group of "kids" I have to work with for part of my day everyday. They're all in their twenties. One day they asked me how old I was and when I told them, I got responses like "No way!" They thought I was 25-26 apparently. Of course this was pleasant to hear, but then I got asked, "So why don't you have a girlfriend?"

I'm 4 years older than my sister. She's had a weight problem her whole life. She's beautiful, and everyone that's ever met her has remarked at that, but she's always had weight issues that she's been self conscience about. On top of that, she's even more shy than I am. She's a homebody, whereas (when I'm not extremely depressed,) I like to go out. Yet she still found an awesome man to marry her that SHE CHOSE. And now they have an awesome kid too.

There is a TON of social pressure to be in a relationship at my age. People most definitely think something's wrong if you're not. Everybody, family, friends. But even more than that, I think it's just that being in a relationship gives YOU that added confidence in other areas of your life. Like you feel more outgoing and ready for life. Like at work, you feel that drive to focus more clearly because you're more calm.

Also studies have shown that single men have a far higher risk of everything from heart disease, to cancer, to obesity, to alcohol/drug abuse, to depression than single women do. Male suicide rates are much higher than female overall, but single men run an even higher risk.

"He needs to realize that there is someone out there that he suits just fine. The problem is finding it and having the courage to accept that fact."

Exactly. I'd have to settle. There are probably millions of women out there that would make my heart pound, but I'll have to settle for someone I don't really like just because there could be a higher likelihood she won't run away.

Because of all those options women have; men who aren't rich, or aren't that one pick-up artist guy on that desert island with 100 women frequently have to settle.

I'd rather be alone. I need passion. I'm a passionate person man. The things I'm interested in, I'm passionate about. When I don't like something, or don't agree with it, I'm passionate about that too. I couldn't love somebody or marry somebody if they didn't stir up strong stuff inside me. I'd rather be alone than settle.

"While MichaelJ has said he fears he may never "procreate", and he's aware of his advancing age, the reality is that his ability to do so is not limited by a biological clock--he can "procreate" for decades yet to come."

How many men do you know in their 50's who have an active, adventurous, dating/sex life?

Remember Krumple said "Men are driven biologically to have sex." That's true! In fact much more so than women. So even if women lose their men's interest " because those who are in their age group and single may choose to be involved with younger women" it still really doesn't affect them as much as men in their same positions!!! Because men have a stronger biological drive to mate than women, they in turn feel stronger that something is wrong with them if they can't! It simply just doesn't bother women as much if they're not sexually active consistently, whereas most men probably masturbate every single day without fail.

Once men get to around that age, if they aren't married the likelihood of them staying that way for the rest of their lives increases so much that they no longer have a say in the matter. But their biological drive to have sex (which is stronger than women's) is still there intact. Oh, and they get to be viewed by society in that light of "what's wrong with that guy?" for the rest of their lives.

Women do have it easier. All around.

A guy I work with has been engaged to his girlfriend for about six months. They were supposed to get married this summer. I get to work yesterday and I'm told about how his woman had been sleeping with somebody else for quite awhile and told him that she's leaving him. I didn't hear this from him mind you, I got to hear it from my boss, because apparently when he found out he got trashed and drove his car into a wall downtown. He's pretty messed up, thankfully alive.

It's everywhere in society.

Women disgust me.

Women are the evil.

Women are devils.

Devils!

Do yourself a favour and stay away from them.

You really are a pathetic little man, 'poor me poor me,' is all you've been able to go on about.

You're a self-indulgent narcissist who has absolutely nothing to offer anyone. It's a good thing you don't have children, you would be a useless parent.

Why exactly do you people read my posts if I'm a "a self-indulgent narcissist who has absolutely nothing to offer anyone"? Clearly you're interested enough to keep reading...

I'm speaking for men everywhere.

Women are oppressive devils.

fixed

Actually, I'm not reading your posts, just the stand alone bit at the bottom. You just cry about how life is hard, but you won't get off your arse to do anything about it. You blame everyone, and everything else for the way your life has turned out, because you're too immature to accept responsibility. It's time you grew up.

Life isn't black and white. It's grey.

I accept responsibility for the things I can change, but I also recognize times in my life where I threw every ounce of effort I had into it and still failed.

Women have more power/control in society than men. Fact.

Even the most positive thinking, proactive doing man still will never TRULY know where his woman's loyalties lay.

Women are manipulative and shady.

END OF STORY.

That must be why they get paid so much more.

That's such a bullshit argument.

Men go after higher paying jobs more than women do. But even though men are under more stress at their jobs than the less stressful jobs women CHOOSE to go after, women still reserve the right to bitch about how they're paid less...

I'll also repeat:

"Also studies have shown that single men have a far higher risk of everything from heart disease, to cancer, to obesity, to alcohol/drug abuse, to depression than single women do. Male suicide rates are much higher than female overall, but single men run an even higher risk."