Can life have meaning if your dreams are unattainable?

You're wrong firefly.

I don't need therapy as much as I need something else. I probably need some therapy too, but that's not what I need most.

I need People. NEW people in my life.

What I need is to keep busy. What I need is new friends. Every night this past week except for tonight I've been active doing something. I'm not going to say it's fixed things but it certainly hasn't been bad. I hung out with a new friend tonight for cocktails and watched him play drums in his garage. He's awesome, blew me away!

It IS sad to be attracted to money. It is NOT sad to be attracted to beauty. Beauty can mean so many different things. Money is just plain money.

Even if the meaning of beauty you're taking what I said to mean is physical beauty (which isn't really what I meant), that's still less superficial than money. It's something that's a unique part of that person. The way they look, yeah that's superficial, but it's also unique to only that ONE person. There are a lot of beautiful people out there, but no two look exactly alike. Money is something completely OUTSIDE of who a person is. It's something you can't recognize and say 'That's distinctly Bob!, I recognize that money!" You can most definitely see pretty eyes and say 'That's Karen, I'd recognize those eyes anywhere!" Whether it's superficial or not, no two people on earth look exactly the same. It's those unique differences that people find individually beautiful. Some women like tall, dark haired guys. I personally REALLY dig auburn haired women with light eyes. To me that's beautiful.

I think women can become MORE attractive to men for reasons completely unrelated to their looks, but there needs to some initial UNIQUE thing about them that men find attractive right away.

I think people attracted to money are much more shallow than even the most shallow people who base opinions solely on looks. Think about this: Who's more shallow, the woman who uses her sexuality to gain financial rewards from multiple men, or the man who sleeps with a lot of women for FREE, just because he enjoys the activity of sleeping with beautiful women? One person is engaged in the activity for an ulterior motive, the other person is engaged in the activity merely for the sake of enjoying the activity.

I had a 3 hour plus conversation with my best guy friend tonight. Beauty can have a whole lot to do with personality. I'll try to explain why...

My friend obviously knows my life story and what's been going on. We got to talking about stuff and I mentioned that because I've been depressed, I don't jerk off much anymore. Later when I was thinking about our talk I got to thinking about the sexual side of my past relationships and I realized something I think is pretty important.

In my life as an adult, I haven't really enjoyed jerking off unless I'm thinking about someone I have feelings for. Whether it's someone I love or it's just a crush, there needs to be something other than just visual stimulation. Don't get me wrong, I'm as straight as a #2 pencil. I like tits and ass ...a lot. But it's a way different thing if those tits and that ass are attached to someone who's either taken a vested interest in you, or you anticipate that maybe they could if you spent enough time with them.

And I think about the beautiful people I've been with. What made me attracted to them sexually, much more so than they way they look is the way they made me feel. That's beautiful, that's sexy. And it's rare, that feeling. And once you feel that, you're then conditioned to be attracted to that person. That's also what jerking off does, it reinforces whatever established attraction you already feel. It's a powerful reinforcer!

I think that's one of the hardest parts of break ups. You are conditioned very strongly to associate images or thoughts or whatever of that person with euphoric feelings. These euphoric feelings then become daggers through your being when you realize they still exist even in the absence of that person.

Mary Poppins put those feelings deep inside my being with her own actions, and I reinforced those feelings with the associations I made with them.

I know I'm never going to let go of my euphoric associations with her unless I replace them with euphoric associations with someone else. Basically I need someone to fantasize about, but someone very real.

That's another reason why women have an unfair advantage. Because it's easier for them to be noticed for their looks, that gives them (mathematically speaking) a higher chance of meeting that beautiful person with that rare feeling that isn't really about physical attraction at all. In turn then, it's also much easier for women to let go of feelings for their exes because they have more chances to replace those feelings with feelings for someone else.

Do you still think my understanding of relationships is nil...?

"I'm betting that most would say they wouldn't trade in their self respect for phony friends or lovers even if they were the richest person alive."

I 100% agree. But I think loneliness is a worse feeling sometimes than even being surrounded by phonies.

I don't give a **** if you or anyone else has liked my posts. What I've written here is about me trying to figure out myself, not about entertaining others.

And have you ever read a "really good porno" posting? Sex is sex is sex. It's *******, there's really nothing poetic about it. What I wrote is what happened. Should I have spruced it up with some bullshit that didn't really happen so that it it was more pleasing to you?

Why did you feel the need to write about it at all? I thought this thread was about your need to put your life back on track, not about your adventures as a Don Juan.

Because firefly asked me why I hadn't mentioned anything about sex AND it was a very relevant example of her using me.

" your adventures as a Don Juan."

I've had TWO girlfriends.

Yep, I'm a real Don Jaun...

firefly, you still haven't responded to "Women are more emotionally mature... I guess that's why they use men?? I'm trying to understand."Trouble is, that 10 year age difference is a whopping difference (10 years is almost half of her life) and then you seem surprised when those younger women act their age. "

The guy Mary Poppins ran off with is older than me!!!! And I'm sure money had nothing to do with that at all!!

I'm sure "she acts her age" to him too, but then it's nice to live a comfortable life now isn't it?

I'd really like to hear your pro-female spin on that..

stop bragging

it's possible that ms. poppins was a grade a ****, not all women are, get over it and move on

It isn't a matter of "liking" your posts or not.
Not at all.
I'm just wondering what your real agenda here is.

I know when I had hit rock bottom, not all that long ago really, the very last thing I would/could have wasted my limited energy on at the time would have been this sort of useless debate. Which changes absolutely nothing.
When you are in a black hole all you want is to find a way out from despair & grief, or whatever pain you're experiencing ... back to some sort of semblance of "normality" . That is, unless you are actually enjoying the drama of being in the black hole. If you actually are.

Good. You're going to be moving to a new place in a few months, to live with your sister, and you'll have the opportunity to meet a lot of new people.

So, you need a new masturbatory fantasy, big deal. Create one.

It isn't really about women being attracted to money, it's more about you feeling like a loser because you don't earn much, you're in debt, and not having enough money affects how you are able to live. So, it just becomes another excuse to give yourself for why you're not appealing to women.

Maybe your problem is that you're not ambitious enough, you don't have enough energy, or drive, or initiative, to improve your financial situation, or you're too hampered by your emotional problems, and self-defeating attitudes, to focus on improving your financial future and supporting yourself in better style. And maybe those are the personality traits that women see in you that are a turnoff. The men they might be attracted to might be earning more than you do, but that might be because those men function better in the real world than you do--they are able to make themselves more successful than you, because they've developed the personal qualities that make someone successful, and they may work hard at trying to be a success at what they do. It's not just that they have more money than you do, it's their other attributes as well--the sort of attributes you could work to acquire.

It's hard for someone to be successful in the real world when they have to walk around with a baseball hat pulled down over their eyes because they are so embarrassed or ashamed of how they look, or if they are so socially awkward that they can't even make polite dinner conversation if someone invites them for Thanksgiving dinner. This isn't about "shyness", MichaelJ, it's about your deep feelings of inadequacy, your lack of good social skills, your low self esteem, your crippling anxieties, your resentments and anger, and your rather distorted thinking and attitudes.

I sure do. And your insight is nil as well.

Look, you had a 6 year+ relationship with someone who eventually cheated on you, but that was a relationship you chose to be involved in, so your carrying on that "she stole a decade of my life," is more crap. Either you enjoyed being in that relationship, or you should have gotten out of it. But you had the same options she did--basically, to stay or leave.
Then you went 6 years without dating anyone--which is why you lack broader experience in relationships with women. But your life went on during those 6 years, you survived, huddled in your shell, making excuses and externalizing blame for your problems.
Then you became friends with a woman, Ms Poppins, who was clearly trying to help you with your problems, the relationship developed into a "friends with benefits" arrangement, with sex thrown in, and you were both using each other to satisfy needs you both had, and, after a few months, she decided to move on, or go back to a man she had been involved with prior to you, and you're still throwing a tantrum about being dumped. You might have been satisfied with the relationship, but she wasn't, whatever she needed, you weren't supplying. Maybe she got tired of trying to prop up your shaky self esteem, or feeding your needs, or whatever--but she's moved on with her life and out of yours. You want to carry on about it, go right ahead, but that won't help you to form a new relationship with anyone else, or help you to understand yourself any better.

You don't need a relationship with a female right now--you need to start making realistic plans for your immediate future--you're going to need to have a job after you relocate with your sister. And you've got to focus on finding that job right now. Needing money is a reality of life--if you like the comfort of living indoors and having food to eat. You obviously can't just sponge off your sister, and you have student loans to pay off. And, right now, you don't even have a job with health insurance benefits, so you've got to do better than that with your next job. You better start looking into job opportunities in that new location ASAP--what's available, what those jobs pay, what benefits they offer, what opportunities they offer for advancement, etc. and start applying for anything that seems promising right now. It is always easier to get a new job if you are currently employed, so don't wait until you move, and you are unemployed, to start looking for one. And get yourself looking good--fit and healthy and pulled together--so you can make a good impression when you walk into a job interview.

So, stop whining, and start dealing with life's realities. Your immediate priority should be making sure you can adequately support yourself in the very near future--working at more than one job if you have to, or making yourself qualified for a better paying job if you have to do that, but making sure you have financial stability in your life. That's what grown-ups do, MichaelJ--they make sure they can take care of themselves in that way. When women see you as unable to do that, they may opt for a man who is simply functioning better, and more successfully, in the real world. That's reality, particularly for a woman who is looking to settle down, get married, and raise a family. Most women are more than willing to work, and contribute their fair share economically, but they may also want a male partner who can uphold his end of the deal too, and that's not at all unreasonable. So far, you're struggling just to take care of yourself.

You just don't want to take an honest look at yourself. And your posts in this thread are evidence of that. And your "philosophical arguments" with your previous therapists were also evidence of that, and you sabotaged your therapy with the same sort of crap you are spouting in this thread. You don't gain self knowledge by looking outside of yourself for the answers--you've got to look inward.

You have a lot of emotional and personality problems that interfere with having healthy close relationships and a positive outlook on life. If you don't recognize and address those problems, nothing is going to change for you.

" it's possible that ms. poppins was a grade a ****, not all women are, get over it and move on"

THANK YOU!!!!!!

She was a ****!! With a capital C!

Finally somebody said it!!!! I wish I could shake your hand!

I really want to hope all women aren't cunts. I really hope you're right. All I know is the experiences I've had. I'd like that to change.

Firefly you are so, so angry because I've been pointing out hypocrisies in female nature.

You won't even acknowledge great points that I've made.

" Who's more shallow, the woman who uses her sexuality to gain financial rewards from multiple men, or the man who sleeps with a lot of women for FREE, just because he enjoys the activity of sleeping with beautiful women? One person is engaged in the activity for an ulterior motive, the other person is engaged in the activity merely for the sake of enjoying the activity. "

That's a strong point!!!

""Women are more emotionally mature... I guess that's why they use men?? I'm trying to understand."Trouble is, that 10 year age difference is a whopping difference (10 years is almost half of her life) and then you seem surprised when those younger women act their age. "The guy Mary Poppins ran off with is older than me!!!! And I'm sure money had nothing to do with that at all!! I'm sure "she acts her age" to him too, but then it's nice to live a comfortable life now isn't it?"

That's a strong point!

As far as money goes, here's the thing: I will never be wealthy. Never, ever. I'm in more debt than I'll be able to pay off. It's simple math, the salaries for my career field won't ever allow me to pay off my student loans completely. Unless I got ridiculously lucky.

But here's another thing: I will always be able to support myself. I've lived on my own since I was 17 and I ran away from the foster home I was in. I've never had parental support, or any financial support. None. I've lived through floods, and a fire. Lost most of my belongings, worked hard to get my degree, and somehow have still been able to feed myself and put a roof over my head. Since age 17.

Whatever women would ever be with me had better get off her ass and support herself! There's no reason at all that I should have the financial burden placed on me for two people. It's not the 1950's anymore!

If we had a child, that would be different. I would do ANYTHING for my kid (s). I'd make it happen. I've had a dog for over 6 years now, and I know it's not the same thing but's it's kinda similar. In fact my dog has had several medical problems and she's diabetic. I've had more expensive trips to the vet than I can count, but I've always taken care of her. I've found ways to pay for it. I AM a responsible adult. I know that I have a living being waiting for me at home. I know her well being rests solely on my shoulders.

I think it's really sad that a potential partner would reject me based on money. It makes me lose faith in humanity. Instead of the lottery example I used before, how about this: Let's say I get my personal problems worked on, I get in shape and start becoming more outgoing. I meet a beautiful woman and we hit it off! I never tell her about my student debt, but then one day she finds out. She'd leave me. That's messed up. Women's affection can be measured with dollar signs, it's not right.

"The men they might be attracted to might be earning more than you do, but that might be because those men function better in the real world than you do--they are able to make themselves more successful than you, because they've developed the personal qualities that make someone successful, and they may work hard at trying to be a success at what they do. "

What about people who are just born into rich families??? Money doesn't necessarily equal positive personal qualities. Sometimes life makes it nearly impossible to acquire wealth.

Look at my sister. Her whole life all she wanted was to be a mom, even more so than me. She became pregnant with twins, a girl and a boy. Very unfortunately though, they were born premature. They had to fight for life for an excruciatingly long time which cost my sister and her husband a LOT of money. In the end my nephew lived, but my poor sweet niece passed away. My nephew has had many developmental problems that have cost them, and continue to cost them greatly.

My sister and her husband had money saved up that they were going to use for a down payment on a house. That money all went to medical expenses. My sister also has a lot of student debt, and she's even said to me 'Mike, I can't keep up with it. I think that was our one chance, we'll probably never own a home now."

You guys can't rip on me about money. No matter how hard I work, I'm going to always have struggles with it. That doesn't mean I can't work on bettering myself, but I won't ever be wealthy. Anyone who would ever love me would have to accept that.

When you guys focus on money so much in these posts, and when I hear things like those four women at work the other week, it makes me very disheartened. Love shouldn't EVER have a price tag.

"Look, you had a 6 year+ relationship with someone who eventually cheated on you, but that was a relationship you chose to be involved in, so your carrying on that "she stole a decade of my life," is more crap. Either you enjoyed being in that relationship, or you should have gotten out of it. But you had the same options she did--basically, to stay or leave."

Bullshit. She made a commitment to me when she agreed to marry me. I had no warning whatsoever her cheating was coming. I didn't want to leave, I wanted to marry her! You've never once given me credit for ACTUALLY being in love with these two women. Firefly, have you ever been in love? Love can make you blind to things. Your partner shouldn't be taking advantage of that.

"Then you became friends with a woman, Ms Poppins, who was clearly trying to help you with your problems, the relationship developed into a "friends with benefits" arrangement, with sex thrown in, and you were both using each other to satisfy needs you both had, and, after a few months, she decided to move on, or go back to a man she had been involved with prior to you, and you're still throwing a tantrum about being dumped"

Mary Poppins wasn't trying to help me with anything. We had a MUTUAL friendship. In fact I spent countless nights giving her advice about her relationship with Jack!

People who are "friends with benefits" don't say things like "I love you!", "I want to have your child!", or "I've never felt a connection with another human being this strong". Mary Poppins used me. In her mind we were friends with benefits, but she never let me know that, and in fact continued to seduce me until I fell in love with her. Then threw me away. THAT'S OUTRIGHT EVIL! Especially because she knew my past and especially because she spent SO much time trying to convince me that not all women are like my cheating fiance.

I didn't use her for a goddamn thing! I loved that woman! I've never felt a pain as strong in my life as the day she left. Not even when my parents died. I'm extremely insulted that you say I used her, that's simply untrue.

Firefly you are so rattled by the things I'm saying about your gender that you're willing to justify any horrible thing a woman could ever do.

I'm the one with no insight?

Really?

Especially from reading these post, I feel forced into a future without a wife or child.

I'd honestly do anything for my goal to become a reality, but I can't fight against millions of years of evolution.

Women don't love men, they love money.

Bullshit, women just don't love you and why would they? You're a miserable excuse of a human being. Yes, I sincerely hope you will be forced into
a future without wife and/or child - why make them as miserable as you are.

For 13 pages firefly and victor have tried to help you and all they got from
you is more misery. They've wasted their time on you, they really did.

When you make one, I'll acknowledge it.

You've had a number of people who have spent a great deal of time and energy listening to you in this thread, and trying to offer you advice, and you haven't let any of it penetrate.

You want to believe you are right, fine, believe what you want.

It's rather hard to think about having a wife when you neither like, nor trust, women, isn't it?

Evolution? Evolution has nothing to do with it. You're not an appealing person, MichaelJ. You've turned off both males and females in this thread. And I can easily understand why women don't want to get involved with you, and, why the two who did, wanted out.

I'm not sure why you really started this thread, MichaelJ but, I must say, you have some of the most peculiar thinking I've ever come across. But, since you think you've got all the answers, you should have no difficulty working out a solution for yourself. Good luck.

You know what firefly, I honestly do appreciate the advice I've been given here, all of it. Even the advice I haven't agreed with. I don't have all the answers in life, and I've honestly given thought to everything said.

If you really think it's OK for a woman to cheat on her fiance, or for a woman to use a man for her own whims then there's no getting through to you.

I guess the one thing I'd like to get across in this thread is that it's not right to use people. Male or female. I've never used anybody in my life because I learned early on how that feels. I'm not at all religious but "Do onto others" is something I feel very strongly about. I wouldn't do the things that have been done to me to even my worst enemies. Even though those people that hurt me, I don't wish them any harm.

I guess all I can do with my life is treat people the way I wish I'd been treated, and point out hypocrisy where it lays...

I'm sorry you feel that way.

I wouldn't wish harm on you or anyone else for that matter.

nice way to miss the point and turn it to your own pathetic agenda

Like I said before in this thread... If I had been born female but with the same personal problems I have now, or if I was just plain boring period I could still find someone to love me.

Yep, women don't at all get by in life based on their looks...

http://now.msn.com/entertainment/0319-funny-mph-video